How long will they stay?

**casscorridor65** · January-01-19, 09:16 PM

I moved to Casscorridor, err, Midtown in the early '90's and I'm blown away everytime I peruse Trulia and this neighborhood. I’m wondering how long the current group of people that are paying big money to live here will last.

Maybe it's just that I've been here so long and am simply use to it, but I don't see this neighborhood offering up $300k, $400k, or $500k worth of amenities. I moved here from Southwest Detroit and sure, for $235 a month it was fine. The neighborhood offers us all the same no matter what we pay for our living expenses. But what these people are paying to live here blows my mind!

I was at Cass Café having dinner the other night talking to some other long time locals. We all guessed that in about 5 years there will start being an exodus of these newbies and a reduction in property values. Of course this is a guess but we all are still baffled by what some people are paying to live in our neighborhood. The sirens are all night every night, there is still petty crime, lots of street people, uber-high taxes, high auto insurance, city income tax, etc. Crap we've been living with forever, stuff you expect from a low rent neighborhood. I still love living here and will probably be here till I die, but I live here VERY inexpensive compared to what people are paying to move here. At some point, I have to imagine these people tiring of Midtown and the costs associated with it. Maybe one economic downturn or when their property tax discount ends they’ll move on.

I guess my questions are, What is so great about my neighborhood that people are paying $300k for a 900 SQ. foot 1 bedroom with street parking, and the bigger question, can this neighborhood survive long-term at these prices?

**Hamtragedy** · January-01-19, 10:06 PM

Are there not some tax credits about to expire? I think once the real property tax bill gets sent it will send some of the earlier "pioneers" fleeing, especially since some of those properties were purchased at [[seems like eons ago) 200-300K range.

**313WX** · January-01-19, 10:30 PM

I too remember when it was still cool to say "Cass Corridor."

**SammyS** · January-01-19, 11:01 PM

Prices only seem rediculous because of where they have recently appreciated from. What was the appreciation from 10 to 5 years ago? About the same % wise as the last 5 years? Was it rediculous 5 years ago?

**casscorridor65** · January-02-19, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by SammyS

Prices only seem rediculous because of where they have recently appreciated from. What was the appreciation from 10 to 5 years ago? About the same % wise as the last 5 years? Was it rediculous 5 years ago?

To kind of answer that...which you can make your own conclusions: In 1993 I paid $235 for rent. In 2010, in that same apartment, rent was $415.00. [[Moved and finally bought a place in 2010). My understanding is that those studio apartments are now going for $900.

**401don** · January-02-19, 08:08 AM

Areas gentrify not just because of the cool factor of young people wanting to live downtown, but normally because a growing population and economy pushes people out to these neighborhoods from the core. Detroit's growing downtown and midtown pop. is overdependent on the former, on Quicken and on suburban companies moving downtown. It will be crucial for a few of the other grassroots companies downtown to experience rapid growth to justify continued migration of young people as others leave and start families.

**DeLemur** · January-02-19, 10:13 AM

Its a good question. I think prices will decrease about 15-20% in the next 4 years and get back to an place that reflects the amenities of the city. There is a hype now that is peaking and people will wake up and see Detroit is an interesting, dynamic city but it isn't cutting edge yet, it isn't the booming West or Texas, its still a midwestern city slowly reinventing itself, albeit with some serious opportunity to do interesting things [[reinvigorate our waterways!)
I often drive down Vernor highway and the condition of the roads are abysmal, literally jarring my car every day. We still have 6 auto thefts a month in my neighborhood and I still have to worry about walking at night. Point being, real estate prices are living in the future not the present and needs to correct a bit.

**Scottathew** · January-02-19, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by DeLemur

There is a hype now that is peaking and people will wake up and see Detroit is an interesting, dynamic city but it isn't cutting edge yet, it isn't the booming West or Texas, its still a midwestern city slowly reinventing itself, albeit with some serious opportunity to do interesting things [[reinvigorate our waterways!)

It's nice to see some realistic, middle of the road opinions.

**bragaboutme** · January-02-19, 10:49 AM

I've lived in the new center area and downtown. Back then we had one of those newly built lofts and were paying a nice amount. The expenses were low though cause we were close to work and made a nice amount of money. So let's say if rent was 1200 that could easily be split by two people or more. You have to understand these people that pay that amount don't have a miserable life and don't know or care about it from your perspective. These people love to live close to where they work that's plain and simple and there are plenty of high paying jobs.

**poobert** · January-02-19, 10:50 AM

I also lived there when it was cheap. The apartment I was renting is now going renting for $1,000 more per month than when I was living there, years ago...

I imagine many of those people living there will indeed move on. People are more mobile, but once they start having kids they may opt for the suburbs or a more suburban Detroit neighborhood, even. I think it is important to understand that there is not a finite supply of people. As these people move on, a new generation will be graduating from college, high school, being born, etc.

Also American [[and Western) tastes have changed dramatically in the past one to two decades. While there is still plenty of demand for suburbia - the newest, shiniest kind, anyway - American cities are now tranformed from what they were in the 1980's and 1990's. They are no longer viewed as only for the freaks, geeks, and poors. The trend toward urban living has been dramatic, for at least a not-so-insignificant portion of the population. Could that change in the coming years and decades? Of course, but by-and-large the younger generation, even if not having the desire, does not have the revulsion and fear of cities that the boomers did [[dear God boomers what the fuck).

I'm sure people were having the same conversation about Brooklyn 15 - 20 years ago. Have prices dropped and have the neighborhoods reverted to their hardscrabble, bluecollar roots? What about Hells Kitchen? Lower east side?

If I had to hedge my bets, I don't think the neighborhood is going to be passe anytime soon. It is scrappy, yes, but people want to live there. Especially in ultra-suburban SE Michigan, it offers a way of life not offered in many other locales here.

Also, for yourself - you chose to live there, too, as I once did. I realize you noted it was affordable, but you or I could have picked up and apartment in Warren, Redford, or Lincoln Park for the same or cheaper, I'm sure. For whatever reason, we liked the area, n'est-pas? And I may be gone to greener pastures but someone with far more money than me is now living in my old apartment!

**K-slice** · January-02-19, 12:12 PM

As a transplant to Detroit who manages several properties in downtown and New Center, I don't see the trend of price increases ending any time soon. People my age or younger are my primary clientele and I'm under 30. Empty nesters also make up a significant chunk of the group driving up prices.

To cement the point that demand isn't going to die, I would say about half of the residents who move out provide me with a Detroit forwarding address. Many of them moving to midtown, West Village, or Corktown.

The trend towards living in a community where one doesn't need a car to get around daily is alive and will only continue to grow. "Greater downtown" Detroit is the largest area where this kind of lifestyle is possible in the metro area.

Prices will of course fluctuate with the market as a whole but in the next downturn I expect the traditional lower-cost/ starter home suburbs with 0 walk-ability [[Warren, Sterling Heights, Livonia, etc) will suffer more than areas like midtown or the walk-able suburbs.

**Bham1982** · January-02-19, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by K-slice

The trend towards living in a community where one doesn't need a car to get around daily is alive and will only continue to grow.

The ironic thing is that Cass Corridor has probably never been more auto-oriented than right now. The transients living in the Corridor over the last 60 years obviously weren't living auto-oriented lifestyles. I bet they rarely had cars. In contrast, anyone buying a new condo in "Midtown" has a car, and uses it.

So, yes, the corridor has gotten much more livable, but it isn't due to people ditching auto-oriented lifestyles, but rather some people with auto-oriented lifestyles deciding the area is a decent option for living.

**dtowncitylover** · January-02-19, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The ironic thing is that Cass Corridor has probably never been more auto-oriented than right now. The transients living in the Corridor over the last 60 years obviously weren't living auto-oriented lifestyles. I bet they rarely had cars. In contrast, anyone buying a new condo in "Midtown" has a car, and uses it.

So, yes, the corridor has gotten much more livable, but it isn't due to people ditching auto-oriented lifestyles, but rather some people with auto-oriented lifestyles deciding the area is a decent option for living.

Yes, and thank God for Midtown implementing a no-strip mall development rule. I would think midtown inhabitants need a car only because not every amenity is there yet. Not because they still want to have a car. The next step is make sure sure one doesn't need a car to live in and around midtown and downtown. More stores, no parking rights for developments, and better knowledge of DDOT options.

**Johnnny5** · January-02-19, 02:30 PM

Rising interest rates, a slowing economy, the end of local tax subsidies, downsizing following the recent peak in the automotive sector and the possibility of a upcoming increase in supply are all pointing to stabilizing or falling real estate prices over the next few years [[In Midtown, Detroit in general and the suburbs). IMO we might see another year of mild appreciation, but there's just not much to keep this momentum going. Once the tide turns some of those that gained the most are often those that have the most to lose. Will those who purchased in Detroit solely as an investment start looking for the doors?

**poobert** · January-02-19, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The ironic thing is that Cass Corridor has probably never been more auto-oriented than right now. The transients living in the Corridor over the last 60 years obviously weren't living auto-oriented lifestyles. I bet they rarely had cars. In contrast, anyone buying a new condo in "Midtown" has a car, and uses it.

So, yes, the corridor has gotten much more livable, but it isn't due to people ditching auto-oriented lifestyles, but rather some people with auto-oriented lifestyles deciding the area is a decent option for living.

I'll submit the first paragraph is an interesting observation and likely true.

The second though, is a bit problematic. Yes, virtually all newer non-transient residents of midtown likely own cars and use them regularly. However, their election of that location would almost certainly indicate a preference for a less auto-reliant lifestyle. It isn't a zero sum game, after all.

I can tell you when I lived there - as a non-affluent but also non-transient person - the car moved once a week. Good luck doing that at 24 Mile Road and Hayes. Your ass is driving to the fucking mailbox. Among a significant portion of the population, that isn't awesome anymore.

**LongGone06** · January-02-19, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

...by-and-large the younger generation, even if not having the desire, does not have the revulsion and fear of cities that the boomers did...

To be fair, the move to the suburbs wasn't entirely motivated by fear. After WWII, there was a housing shortage for returning service members. Home building advances, mortgage insurance programs and government subsidies made large scale home building in the suburbs quick and affordable. Some people chose to buy these homes in the suburbs, rather than live in apartments in the cities. Some people followed employment; notably in Detroit, where the auto companies shifted production to newer suburban plants and closed older facilities in the city. Some people simply wanted larger yards in quiet suburbs, which were all the more accessible after the interstate freeway system began construction in the 1950's. And yes, many people moved out of fear of crime and/or declining quality of life and property values in the 1960's and later. In short, the suburban migration began after WWII and accelerated in the 1960's.

Also, some people are attracted to a lifestyle different than what they previously experienced. For boomers, the suburbs were an attractive alternative to the cities where they were raised. For younger generations who grew up there, the suburbs are bland and boring. Their interest in and return to the cities is a good thing, in my opinion.

**iheartthed** · January-02-19, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor65

I moved to Casscorridor, err, Midtown in the early '90's and I'm blown away everytime I peruse Trulia and this neighborhood. I’m wondering how long the current group of people that are paying big money to live here will last.

Maybe it's just that I've been here so long and am simply use to it, but I don't see this neighborhood offering up $300k, $400k, or $500k worth of amenities. I moved here from Southwest Detroit and sure, for $235 a month it was fine. The neighborhood offers us all the same no matter what we pay for our living expenses. But what these people are paying to live here blows my mind!

I was at Cass Café having dinner the other night talking to some other long time locals. We all guessed that in about 5 years there will start being an exodus of these newbies and a reduction in property values. Of course this is a guess but we all are still baffled by what some people are paying to live in our neighborhood. The sirens are all night every night, there is still petty crime, lots of street people, uber-high taxes, high auto insurance, city income tax, etc. Crap we've been living with forever, stuff you expect from a low rent neighborhood. I still love living here and will probably be here till I die, but I live here VERY inexpensive compared to what people are paying to move here. At some point, I have to imagine these people tiring of Midtown and the costs associated with it. Maybe one economic downturn or when their property tax discount ends they’ll move on.

I guess my questions are, What is so great about my neighborhood that people are paying $300k for a 900 SQ. foot 1 bedroom with street parking, and the bigger question, can this neighborhood survive long-term at these prices?

The same conversation has been had in many former ghettos across the country. The answer is that they'll probably be there after you're gone.

**casscorridor65** · January-02-19, 05:23 PM

Wow! I’m impressed with the feedback with everyone making very valid points.
Delemur wrote,” Point being, real estate prices are living in the future not the present and needs to correct a bit.” Well said. That’s kind of what my friends and I were talking about. That what this neighborhood has to offer NOW [[and city as a whole) seems inadequate compared to the prices that homes are going for in Cass Corridor [[and other parts of Detroit!!!) I agree with another poster that a 20%+ decrease will probably happen after the novelty wears off. And as someone correctly pointed out, as interest rates rise and tax subsides end, the market will correct itself.
I agree that there is no “finite” number of people who want to live here. Of course someone will always be around to fill these rentals, especially if you have roommates. I was referring more about owners and renters that don’t have to have a roommate to pay for their housing. Unfortunately for so many people here, they can’t survive here unless they have roommates. That’s fun at 20. Not so much at 40+.

**Lowell** · January-02-19, 08:03 PM

Kudos casscorridor65 for starting such a thoughtful thread.

There's a touch of "I can't believe this is happening" going on. Old timers are gobsmacked. There seemed no way our city of ruin could ever rebound. And some "Certainly this can't last; all the other fits and starts fizzled and died." Anybody remember Trappers Alley?

Now there are thousands of new residential units coming on line. In Crain's today there was an article about the new Scott at Brush Park, mentioning it had 190 units--fully leased.

Why the newcomers are flocking there? For the same reason I did. Where else is one going to find the best of art, symphonies, culture, theater, major league sports, dining, clubs, waterfront, Canada, casinos, the best architecture, on and on, all within easy biking or walking range? All you had to do was be brave and open-minded and your reward was an inexpensive and enriching and exciting place to live.

In 1998 I received an outpouring of email after I launched the Fabulous Ruins of Detroit tour. Over and over I heard young suburbanites say how they wanted to live in a vibrant urban center, even asking for advice on how to do it. The pent up demand has always been there and now it is unleashed. And I can hardly believe it.

**casscorridor65** · January-02-19, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Kudos casscorridor65 for starting such a thoughtful thread.

There's a touch of "I can't believe this is happening" going on. Old timers are gobsmacked. There seemed no way our city of ruin could ever rebound. And some "Certainly this can't last; all the other fits and starts fizzled and died." Anybody remember Trappers Alley?

Now there are thousands of new residential units coming on line. In Crain's today there was an article about the new Scott at Brush Park, mentioning it had 190 units--fully leased.

Why the newcomers are flocking there? For the same reason I did. Where else is one going to find the best of art, symphonies, culture, theater, major league sports, dining, clubs, waterfront, Canada, casinos, the best architecture, on and on, all within easy biking or walking range? All you had to do was be brave and open-minded and your reward was an inexpensive and enriching and exciting place to live.

In 1998 I received an outpouring of email after I launched the Fabulous Ruins of Detroit tour. Over and over I heard young suburbanites say how they wanted to live in a vibrant urban center, even asking for advice on how to do it. The pent up demand has always been there and now it is unleashed. And I can hardly believe it.

You’re absolutely correct Lowell: all the reasons you listed for living here, museums, sports, theatre, etc., [[and Wayne State for me), are exactly the reasons why I moved here 25+ years ago and continue to love living here everyday.

And others were correct: bored suburbanite kids love coming down here to enjoy a different world than where they live north of 8 mile. Even my own niece is here almost every weekend with her friends from Port Huron. They all think their “Unc” lives in the coolest place in Michigan.

As I said in my original post, I love living here and I’m definitely not one of those old timers that want to divide the neighborhood between new blood/old blood. I really enjoy ALL the people living here and don’t want anyone to leave, even though I know MANY are forced to because, sadly, they simply can't afford it. I guess our conversation at the Cass Café was more along the lines – if the shoe were on the other foot and I lived elsewhere, knowing what I know, how much would I be willing to spend to live here?

Like I said, the neighborhood offers up the same for all of us no matter whether it’s HUD housing at 2nd & Mack or $1.5 million dollar lofts eight blocks away on John R.

**Towne Cluber** · January-02-19, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor65

And others were correct: bored suburbanite kids love coming down here to enjoy a different world than where they live north of 8 mile. Even my own niece is here almost every weekend with her friends from Port Huron. They all think their “Unc” lives in the coolest place in Michigan.

Kudos to you for being open to all types of people living Downtown/Midtown. Unlike some others that are just as provincial in the city as some are in the suburbs.

Please keep in mind that it goes both ways. There are plenty of bored Detroit neighborhood kids that love going to the suburbs too.

**ABetterDetroit** · January-02-19, 11:09 PM

Agreed, good thread.

I don’t think they are going away. People and places change over time, that never stops happening no matter how much old folks don’t want it to.

The city dwelling segment of the financially successful career-oriented educated youth today just has different goals than past generations. Traveling is more important to some than having kids. It’s a lot easier to head over to Europe for a couple weeks when you don’t have grass to mow or kids to get to school. Lock the apartment door and get gone. Spending an hour and a half a day commuting in anything looks unattractive to them. A waste of valuable leisure time. What’s close to work is Important. Now that they are here, they create a whole other micro-economy in the services they require. Bars, restraunts, shops with their casual clothes with designer labels. Even their comic book store.

As for midtown, you have Wayne State building dorms as fast as they can. It’s not just a commuter school anymore. More recently it has become a resident university in its own college town that is still growing and filling with things college kids enjoy after hours. Some will stay, some will move on. What is different is when it was primarily a commuter school, everyone left.

Some will still head off to the burbs for sure at some point to settle down more, but not all like in past generations. And for the ones that do, there will be plenty that will take their place.

**SammyS** · January-03-19, 12:51 PM

I have witnessed this type of migration first hand from my home town of Melbourne Australia. I've mentioned this in other threads on numerous occasions.

In the mid to late 90's, the CBD was all but dead. Office space was vacant and surrounding inner city neighborhoods were riddled with poverty and crime. Wealth was in the suburbs and concentrated in a few select areas. Everything changed after that. Young professionals started moving into the city and it hasn't stopped since. They moved in for the amenities, the lifestyle and walkability factor that was non existent in the suburbs. Infrastructure was improved and the demand for better schools naturally increased allowing them to raise their families. The inner city neighborhoods have eclipsed the suburbs in value and prestige. Now it's a question of how close to the city you live and even a view of the city is something to brag about.

**scooter** · January-03-19, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by SammyS

I have witnessed this type of migration first hand from my home town of Melbourne Australia. I've mentioned this in other threads on numerous occasions.

In the mid to late 90's, the CBD was all but dead. Office space was vacant and surrounding inner city neighborhoods were riddled with poverty and crime. Wealth was in the suburbs and concentrated in a few select areas. Everything changed after that. Young professionals started moving into the city and it hasn't stopped since. They moved in for the amenities, the lifestyle and walkability factor that was non existent in the suburbs. Infrastructure was improved and the demand for better schools naturally increased allowing them to raise their families. The inner city neighborhoods have eclipsed the suburbs in value and prestige. Now it's a question of how close to the city you live and even a view of the city is something to brag about.

You nuts Detroit still has horrible schools, violent neighborhoods only thing that's safe is downtown and Midtown , national papers claim Detroit is one of the worst cities to raise families, even today a national moving company people said that people are fleeing Michigan faster than people are moving in, the only ones coming to Detroit are young people from the Metro area

**SammyS** · January-03-19, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by scooter

You nuts Detroit still has horrible schools, violent neighborhoods only thing that's safe is downtown and Midtown , national papers claim Detroit is one of the worst cities to raise families, even today a national moving company people said that people are fleeing Michigan faster than people are moving in, the only ones coming to Detroit are young people from the Metro area

I thought Michigan's population was rising if not contained. Do you have any sources for your claim?
As for crime in Detroit, here's the latest.
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...18-crime-stats
Still high but a generational improvement. Gotta admit it's a great start.