Allen Park bucking the inner-ring trend?

[Bham1982]

For instance, it's long been noted that the restaurant business can be a bit of a struggle in GP, because GPers eat at home and there has never developed much of a "going out" culture there. That situation has changed a bit, but my friends and relatives there are still much more likely to invite people over for dinner rather than going out with them. If folks there do go out, they tend to go to places that are on the higher end of casual with familiar food, rather than fine dining or ethnic cuisines or fashionable destination restaurants. These days, if they want a more exciting or adventurous experience, they will to go to places in and around downtown Detroit.

This is a good point. The explosion of downtown Detroit dining probably has a significant degree of patronage from the Pointes, and lessens the need for local options.

Obviously Oakland County residents patronize downtown restaurants too, but they aren't really dependent on downtown. The options along the Woodward Corridor in Oakland, from Ferndale to Bloomfield, east to Troy and west to Novi, are pretty extensive.

GPers I know generally love their cozy shopping etc. areas on Kercheval and Mack [[and Kercheval is, in fact, still quite similar to what Birmingham was like until the '80s). They would be aghast and unhappy if something like downtown Royal Oak began happening there. But none of that means that the place is in decline, just different.

They're much smaller, though. The Hill and the Village, while charming, are very small compared to Bham and RO, and that's not accounting for Ferndale, Berkley, Clawson.

Another difference is that the Hill and Village are for GP residents, and reflect their tastes. Downtown Bham and RO aren't really representative of their respective cities.

Downtown Bham is full of poseur types from elsewhere in glitzy cars and flashy clothes. I'm in a wealthy Bham neighborhood yet my neighbors drive Ford Escapes, shop at Old Navy and belong to the YMCA. I see them in sweatpants and tennis shoes downtown, while the weekend poseur types are in $800 heels and $1,000 dresses.

And downtown RO is a fratastic party every weekend, with yelling, beer-swilling bros from elsewhere, while the actual RO neighborhoods are modest, progressive, and quiet.

[313WX]

I think the reverse is generally true. The Pointes have decent access to big box stores, but very limited retail/restaurants/services.

How many destination/special occasion restaurants are in the Pointes compared to upscale areas in Oakland? How many higher-end retailers? Nicer hotels? Elective medical practices like dermatologists or plastic surgeons? Upscale gyms? How many interesting ethnic markets or bakeries?

If you're in, say, Bloomfield, you have three Whole Foods, two Plum Markets, two Papa Joes and two Holiday Markets within a few minutes. In the Pointes there's nothing. For gyms you have multiple Lifetimes, multiple LA Fitness and even Equinox. For shopping you have Somerset, Orchard Lake Road, Telegraph, Woodward, Maple, etc. For dining you have upwards of dozen high-end steakhouses. You have three French bakeries within a mile of downtown Bham. You have kosher everything in WB and Indian everything to the west.

The Pointes have really nice homes, but not a lot of nearby "stuff" serving a higher-income demographic. It's a place to nest, not really a place to consume. On the positive side, it's less of a "Keeping up with the Jones" feel and there are FAR fewer poseur types. And no traffic congestion.

GP It's kind of like the Peachtree City of Metro Detroit. Merely a bedroom community for people who work elsewhere. It lacks the population density, interstate connectivity and corporate presence that Oakland County has to support a ton of commercial establishments. In comparison, with Troy [[one of the shopping/restaurant hubs of Oakland County), you have 80,000 people who live there alone, and that's not including the people it pulls from Sterling Heights, Royal Oak, Madison Heights, etc. [[another probably 100,000 people there) nor all of the highly paid workers in the offices along Big Beaver Road, nor people traveling north/south on I-75 who may want to stop to do some shopping or get a bite to eat. And the few big box stores that would like to enter GP's market wouldn't be able to find the land to do so, since it's fully built out and the zoning laws prevent such developments.

Even parts of working class Macomb County [[Roseville) and Downriver [[Southgate) have better retail/restaurant options because of a much higher population density, more undeveloped land and the pass-through interstate traffic.

As far as Allen Park, it benefits from connectivity to two major interstate highways, a major state highway as well as having a major F100 company with operations within its borders. It's comparable to the north side of Warren.

[Bham1982]

I also agree with SCS being the AP of the east. What is the AP/SCS of the West?

Eastern Livonia? Aging white ethnic population in little ranch homes. Safe, decent, bland, arguably declining a bit, and probably overdue for a demographic transition in the next 20 years.

[Bham1982]

Where’s the third Whole Foods? I know of one in Birmingham and one in West Bloomfield?

There's a third WF in Rochester Hills.

[Towne Cluber]

Downtown Bham and RO aren't really representative of their respective cities.

Downtown Bham is full of poseur types from elsewhere in glitzy cars and flashy clothes. I'm in a wealthy Bham neighborhood yet my neighbors drive Ford Escapes, shop at Old Navy and belong to the YMCA. I see them in sweatpants and tennis shoes downtown, while the weekend poseur types are in $800 heels and $1,000 dresses.

And downtown RO is a fratastic party every weekend, with yelling, beer-swilling bros from elsewhere, while the actual RO neighborhoods are modest, progressive, and quiet.

This is half-true and half [[yet once again) complete exaggeration.

[Towne Cluber]

There's a third WF in Rochester Hills.

Rochester and Rochester Hills are in a completely different orbit than Birmingham-Bloomfield. You were reaching [[and once again exaggerating) to include anything there as being part of it.

[Bham1982]

Rochester and Rochester Hills are in a completely different orbit than Birmingham-Bloomfield. You were reaching [[and once again exaggerating) to include anything there as being part of it.

The WF in Rochester is closer to much of Bloomfield than any other WF. There's no "exaggerating". Rochester and Bloomfield are adjacent and part of the same wealth belt, obviously. Rochester Hills, culturally, is closer to Bloomfield Twp. than Bloomfield Twp. is to Bham.

And, yeah, obviously we're talking a much bigger geography than in the Pointes. That's kinda the point. The Pointes are tiny, and have minimal wealth these days relative to Oakland. That's, in part, why there are 3 WF in one geography and none in the other.

[gpp1004]

And GP, while still very nice, is in relative decline. It had the most expensive homes and greatest concentration of wealth in Metro Detroit through the 70's. Now the same home would cost 3x as much in affluent parts of Oakland County. There's very limited retail, restaurant or services, and unless you work downtown the Pointes aren't really on the radar. Also not considered welcoming to non-WASPs. How many Jews, Chaldeans and Asians live in the Pointes compared to, say, West Bloomfield?

This is silly. Relative decline? Compared to when? Heck, I'll go back further than 1970. GP's wealth heyday was the 1920s and 1930s. By the 1970s nearly all of the big mansions had been torn down and replaced with upper middle class tract subdivisions [[which are still upper middle class).

Our retail, while not to the extent Bham, Bloomfield, yadda, is perfectly adequate for the size of the Pointes and far from 'very limited.' If you'd like specific examples, I'd be happy to provide, but it looks like others have already addressed this.

I'm not sure what services you're referring to - our city services are exceptional, likely the finest in metro Detroit [[though we do pay dearly for them in taxes). Public schools are top-notch, usually rated among the public ones in your neighborhood. Doctors, medical specialists, attorneys...take a gander at google maps...plenty along Mack and some on Kercheval.

Finally, Grosse Pointe is one of the most welcoming places I've lived. On our block, there are two gay households [[one of which is my husband and myself), two black families, an Indian family, a Korean family, and two Jewish families. Is it majority white? Yes. Does anyone on our block really give a f***? No. And that's what matters. Oh, and the Pointes host a lgbtq Pride parade every June. When was West Bloomfield's last Pride?

[Towne Cluber]

The WF in Rochester is closer to much of Bloomfield than any other WF. There's no "exaggerating". Rochester and Bloomfield are adjacent and part of the same wealth belt, obviously. Rochester Hills, culturally, is closer to Bloomfield Twp. than Bloomfield Twp. is to Bham.

Again, these are complete stretches at best and not accurate overall.

[Bham1982]

Again, these are complete stretches at best and not accurate overall.

And again, this is patently false and probably trolling.

[Towne Cluber]

And again, this is patently false and probably trolling.

Right!

The western side of Bloomfield Hills and Bloomfield Township are somehow magically closer to [[Walton and Adams) Rochester Hills than [[14 Mile and Orchard Lake Road) West Bloomfield.

Likewise, the southern and eastern areas of Bloomfield Hills and Bloomfield Township are also somehow magically closer to Rochester Hills than Maple Road in Birmingham.

Talk about being a poseur!

[cmubryan]

The WF in Rochester is closer to much of Bloomfield than any other WF. There's no "exaggerating". Rochester and Bloomfield are adjacent and part of the same wealth belt, obviously. Rochester Hills, culturally, is closer to Bloomfield Twp. than Bloomfield Twp. is to Bham.

And, yeah, obviously we're talking a much bigger geography than in the Pointes. That's kinda the point. The Pointes are tiny, and have minimal wealth these days relative to Oakland. That's, in part, why there are 3 WF in one geography and none in the other.

The Whole Foods in West Bloomfield is 30 minutes in no traffic from the Whole Foods in Rochester Hills, about 20 miles. This is not the same neighborhood. It’s practically the other side of town. Heck, The West Bloomfield Whole Foods is closer in drive time and almost distance as to the The Midtown Detroit Whole Foods! This is not the same belt by any means. West Bloomfield is more of an extension of Farmington, and Southfield. Rochester is an extension of Troy, Sterling Heights, Auburn Hills. Maybe similiar wealth but different types of people.

[djtomt]

Regardless of where there are Whole Foods stores [[FYI - grocery delivery is the way of the future - get on board or die) are located, nobody can rationally argue that the Pointes are better off than Bloomfield Hills & surrounding districts. Some of this is due to population, taxation, etc. But the bulk of this is old vs new. The Pointes are old, the Bloomfields are relatively new. Of course they will have advantages.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Where’s the third Whole Foods? I know of one in Birmingham and one in West Bloomfield?

There are two Kosher restaurants in West Bloomfield: Milk and Honey in the JCC and one at Walnut and Drake, name escapes me. There are several in Oak Park however.

The area you describe is much larger than “The Pointes.” Bloomfield/Birmingham/West Bloomfield is combined 72+ square miles versus The Pointes which is what? 10?

Isn't the Stage Deli on Orchard Lake near Maple in WB, considered a Kosher restaurant?

[MrMichigan]

Regardless of where there are Whole Foods stores [[FYI - grocery delivery is the way of the future - get on board or die) are located, nobody can rationally argue that the Pointes are better off than Bloomfield Hills & surrounding districts. Some of this is due to population, taxation, etc. But the bulk of this is old vs new. The Pointes are old, the Bloomfields are relatively new. Of course they will have advantages.

Location and character come to mind.

[gpp1004]

Regardless of where there are Whole Foods stores [[FYI - grocery delivery is the way of the future - get on board or die) are located, nobody can rationally argue that the Pointes are better off than Bloomfield Hills & surrounding districts. Some of this is due to population, taxation, etc. But the bulk of this is old vs new. The Pointes are old, the Bloomfields are relatively new. Of course they will have advantages.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Pointes are better off than Bloomfield. I think we're simply saying that the notion of retail, dining options, or services being very limited in the Pointes is a bit of an exaggeration. As is suggesting that they're still in decline, or that only old white Christian dudes are welcome there.

[bust]

The Whole Foods in West Bloomfield is 30 minutes in no traffic from the Whole Foods in Rochester Hills, about 20 miles. This is not the same neighborhood.

You can get from Grosse Pointe to Windsor in the same amount of time, or the airport way across in Romulus.

[Bham1982]

Right!

The western side of Bloomfield Hills and Bloomfield Township are somehow magically closer to [[Walton and Adams) Rochester Hills than [[14 Mile and Orchard Lake Road) West Bloomfield.

Likewise, the southern and eastern areas of Bloomfield Hills and Bloomfield Township are also somehow magically closer to Rochester Hills than Maple Road in Birmingham.

Talk about being a poseur!

For your sake, please read and stop embarrassing yourself.

No one claimed that 100% of Bloomfield was closer to Rochester. Obviously parts of Bloomfield are closer to W. Bloomfield or Bham WF.

Not my fault if you can't read and/or are unaware of Bloomfield's boundaries, which extend to South Blvd, and a great deal of which is closer to WF Rochester.

Also, the general idea that the affluence in Oakland "doesn't count" because it's too widespread geographically, is kinda hilarious at face value. That's exactly the point. Like 90% of the region's wealth is in one large geography, and it isn't the Pointes.

In fact, the Pointes aren't even the most desirable locale in Wayne County anymore. Home prices in Northville/Northville Township are generally much higher apples-to-apples, and Northville largely functions as an extension of Oakland's newer sprawl wealth. It actually straddles the counties, but is usually grouped in with Novi and the like moreso than Livonia.

[Bham1982]

Some of this is due to population, taxation, etc. But the bulk of this is old vs new. The Pointes are old, the Bloomfields are relatively new. Of course they will have advantages.

I don't think the Pointes are worse off because they're older. Bham has gained ground relative to Bloomfield in recent years, and is clearly older. The older parts of Bloomfield [[the Village and the like) have performed much better than the newer parts.

Also, older communities like Pleasant Ridge and Huntington Woods have gained ground in recent years, even with high taxes, issues with schools and proximity to less desirable areas. Clearly many affluent households value older neighborhoods.

If anything, the greatest advantage of the Pointes is age. The best parts of the Pointes are the oldest sections. The postwar sections of the Pointes are generally the least desirable.

[Towne Cluber]

Bham1982, you are an embarrassment and a complete fraud. You use this forum and topics such as this one to take outright pot shots [[or backhanded comments on a good day) at other people and communities.

I'm a Black Detroiter, but I know just as many [[and almost certainly more) people in the Birmingham-Bloomfield area as you. The funny thing is that none of them act in your pompous manner. The even funnier thing is that they are all more cultured, educated, and affluent than you claim to be. Your act on here is a total sham.

As I said before, you are wrong 75-80% of the time and 100% of your claim that "much of Bloomfield is closer to the Rochester Hills Whole Foods than the Birmingham and West Bloomfield locations" is completely untrue.

[gpp1004]

Bham1982, you are an embarrassment and a complete fraud. You use this forum and topics such as this one to take outright pot shots [[or backhanded comments on a good day) at other people and communities.

I'm a Black Detroiter, but I know just as many [[and almost certainly more) people in the Birmingham-Bloomfield area as you. The funny thing is that none of them act in your pompous manner. The even funnier thing is that they are all more cultured, educated, and affluent than you claim to be. Your act on here is a total sham.

As I said before, you are wrong 75-80% of the time and 100% of your claim that "much of Bloomfield is closer to the Rochester Hills Whole Foods than the Birmingham and West Bloomfield locations" is completely untrue.

I do not understand this "my dick's bigger in my city" no "my dick's bigger in my city" thing that metro Detroit seems to have. Folks. Face it. We're in the rust belt. Compared to the wealthiest areas of the US, we all po. I'll be the first to admit that my home in GP would be at least worth double were in in the desirable parts of Oakland County. Does that mean that Grosse Pointe is undesirable? Of course not. A million dollar home in Birmingham would be worth ten times as much for something equivalent in Boston's Back Bay. Birmingham is still a fine place to live.

Bham - you clearly like living in Oakland County, and that is fantastic. But do stop ragging on other's people's neighborhoods. What the people in Detroit and its environs do have is an incredible sense of pride in where they live. There's a reason people live where they live. Some of us like you and me have the means to choose which neighborhood that is. Others of us aren't so lucky. Please respect that.

[gpp1004]

Oh, and to post something on topic - I think Allen Park's ability to keep plugging away is due to its relatively charming and affordable housing stock, its proximity to Ford, and easy access to a fair amount of retail. I know more than a few recently-out-of-college engineers for Ford who have bought cute brick starter homes in Allen Park. It's telling that as older blue collar retirees are selling their lifelong homes, a good portion are being purchased by young professionals.

[cmubryan]

Isn't the Stage Deli on Orchard Lake near Maple in WB, considered a Kosher restaurant?

No, that’s a Jewish deli. Not Kosher.

[cmubryan]

I don't think the Pointes are worse off because they're older. Bham has gained ground relative to Bloomfield in recent years, and is clearly older. The older parts of Bloomfield [[the Village and the like) have performed much better than the newer parts.

Also, older communities like Pleasant Ridge and Huntington Woods have gained ground in recent years, even with high taxes, issues with schools and proximity to less desirable areas. Clearly many affluent households value older neighborhoods.

If anything, the greatest advantage of the Pointes is age. The best parts of the Pointes are the oldest sections. The postwar sections of the Pointes are generally the least desirable.

Berkley Schools which serve Huntington Woods have always performed well and continue to be ranked in the top 10% to 20% of all districts in Michigan. Our local elementary is one of the best ranked in the state.

[gnome]

The inner ring suburb that bucks all trends is Wyandotte.

The city owns its own utility service, including cable, water, electricity and internet.

they have an aggressive building department that insists on new homes be built with wide front porches in their “tree” neighborhoods.