Electric vehicles: What is different this time around?

[renf]

When I grew in Akron, I recall an older woman in our neighborhood who drove her electric car to run all her errands. I suspect it was a Detroit Electric assembled in the late teens or early 1920s. It was silent and my father told me it had few moving parts, was easy to maintain and inexpensive to run. I also remember the electric milk truck that came to our home. It was, I think, one of the DIVCO [[Detroit Industrial Vehicle Co.) trucks with just one pedal. The driver stepped on pedal to go and took his foot off to brake. DIVCO produced substantial numbers of such milk trucks from 1926 to 1986.

The post office experimented with electric trucks a number of times throughout the Twentieth Century. They ordered 350 electric trucks from Jeep in 1974; 375 from a firm in Florida in 1980 and, in 2000, ordered 500 electric trucks from Ford. That experiment ended. General Motors went into the “mass production” of their EV1 vehicle in 1996 and assembled about 1100 before stopping in 2002.

A few years ago, some thought there would be lively competition between the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt. The Leaf still sells in modest number but the Volt may soon join the ranks of Saturn, Oakland, La Salle and Pontiac.

I conclude that most attempts to produce and market electric vehicles in the Twentieth Century and in the early years of this one were not successful. Now we are told, that the future of the auto industry is in electric vehicles, a claim that could have been made in 1909 or so. What is different this time around? I must be missing something important.

[Johnnny5]

Battery technology. Before the weight and size of the batteries severely limited the performance and the distance they were able to travel.

[SammyS]

Better Motor efficiency using BLDC, complex control systems, regenerative braking, quicker recharging/supercharging, and yes, better batteries

[Bigdd]

There is still an inherent problem with selling low to mid priced electric cars. Most of those buyers don't live in a house with an attached garage. [[Where is a home-owner in Detroit that parks on the street, or has an apartment in Roseville and parks in a covered spot supposed too plug in?)

Yes there are supercharging stations here and there,. but the only practical way to have an electric car is to also have a garage with a charging cable, and plug it in at night.

Well under half of Americans live in a home with a garage on their property of any sort. And when you consider that you'd need an attached garage that isn't so full of stuff that they can actually put a car in it,.. that drops to 1/3 or less.

And the ones that do have a garage with room left for a car,.. and a charging cable,.. we're mostly talking about people in the upper 10% - 20% for income. These are the people driving Yukon Denalis, Lexus, Mercedes, etc

Most of those people don't want a Leaf or a Volt. They are likely to by a Tesla.

If we really want to reduce petroleum usage and pollution,.. we need to be building electric SUV's that seat 5-7, and cost $60,000 - $100,000

[ABetterDetroit]

I must be missing something important.

Well, this is pretty “important”.

That is if you like money, jobs, other people paying taxes besides yourself, and stuff like that...

https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/TSLA:US

[O3H]

Range and Towing capacity are huge issues.
Profit has always been in the SUV, TRUCK market, not the Chevy Prism type.

From the guy who brought out the Avalanche and the Volt at GM
[[Posawatz)



https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonypos.../#4d18dbc76e89

Some companies are hitting the Electric Truck market hard
DUAL MOTORS, 360 HORSEPOWER,
UP TO 200 MILES OF RANGE,
AND 0–60 IN 4.5 SECONDS
https://www.theverge.com/transportat...truck-outdoors

[wazootyman]

I drive a 2nd generation Chevy Volt. It's a great car. I hope that the fantastic powertrain [[with gas engine option) finds its way onto another GM car.

I've driven about 30,000 miles on it. About 20,000 of those miles have been pure electric [[mostly commuting and local driving). I've gotten over 70 miles on a charge during the summer months, if driven carefully. Today I got barely 35 [[the cold and the use of cabin heat have a major impact). Still, it allows me to do most of my driving without using gas. If I go up north, or out to my in-laws' place [[about 3 hours away), I occasionally bring my cable, but usually revert to using gas. At 40 MPG, it's not so bad.

I can't see making the switch to full electric any time soon. At a minimum, I'd absolutely need a second, gas-powered car as an option. It's just too much hassle. I know some, many who I might call "fanatics", will disagree with me. We're just not there when it comes to infrastructure, and as good as the tech is, there are still limitations.

Even those of us with a garage run into challenges. Mine is detached, and the 20 A service I have run to it only permits me to use 120 V "Level 1" charging. Technically, I have a 2nd 20 A feed to the garage, but there's no way I could tie-in without violating National Electrical Code guidelines. A "Level 1" charger is only good for about 2-4 miles of charge per hour. It doesn't matter if it's a Volt, Leaf or Tesla Model 3, that's just what it is. Now, one could outlay $500 for a charger + the cost of an electrician for a "Level 2" charger. Include the cost to trench the lines to the garage and I wouldn't be surprised to see the total reach $3k. That's a lot of cash.

Even at "Level 2", you're still looking at an overnight charge to replenish a large, depleted pack [[something that'd have range to go up north, for instance). Even larger, faster chargers probably aren't feasible anytime soon for home use.

My office has a two chargers, and there are about 10-15 of us with EV capability in our vehicles. As you can guess, it's a constant shuffle between all users to "get some electrons". Often, I will skip making an attempt, as it's just too hard to shuffle cars during a busy work day. My employer understandably is not interested in outlaying the cash to add more chargers to our lot. Trust me, we've tried [[more like begged - and no, government/utility incentives and paying-per-charge won't come close to covering it).

I think the Volt was poorly marketed, poorly sold by the dealers, and unfairly became the victim of stupid politics. It's truly the perfect car for a lot of people, they just don't realize it. It is a bit small, that's about the only downside. But you can get a 2nd gen volt for about $26k, assuming you know a GM employee and take a few incentives. Of course, the $7,500 incentive helps - and however you feel about it [[I'm mixed on it myself) - it's going away as GM reaches 200,000 EV sales.

Tesla is an interesting manufacturer. I read a lot about them, and I see opinions from all sides. A lot of it is unfair and has no basis in fact - and that counts for both sides. In my opinion, the main thing they have going for them, besides producing by most accounts a pretty decent car, is a cult-like following. It's a status symbol, much like an iPhone. It's a strange thing to see; certainly outside of the norm for an automotive company. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

Despite the doom-and-gloom news over the last couple of weeks from Ford and GM, I think they will be fine long-term. I do know that they have a lot of electric product in the pipeline, and when the time is right, we will see a lot of that hit the market. The same goes for all of the other auto manufacturers. The shift will be gradual; most consumers aren't ready to make a switch. The workforce will need to change, buying habits will change, and the companies will probably look quite a bit different 20 years from now. But hey, so will everything else in the world no doubt.

[p69rrh51]

When I grew in Akron, I recall an older woman in our neighborhood who drove her electric car to run all her errands. I suspect it was a Detroit Electric assembled in the late teens or early 1920s. It was silent and my father told me it had few moving parts, was easy to maintain and inexpensive to run. I also remember the electric milk truck that came to our home. It was, I think, one of the DIVCO [[Detroit Industrial Vehicle Co.) trucks with just one pedal. The driver stepped on pedal to go and took his foot off to brake. DIVCO produced substantial numbers of such milk trucks from 1926 to 1986.

The post office experimented with electric trucks a number of times throughout the Twentieth Century. They ordered 350 electric trucks from Jeep in 1974; 375 from a firm in Florida in 1980 and, in 2000, ordered 500 electric trucks from Ford. That experiment ended. General Motors went into the “mass production” of their EV1 vehicle in 1996 and assembled about 1100 before stopping in 2002.

A few years ago, some thought there would be lively competition between the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt. The Leaf still sells in modest number but the Volt may soon join the ranks of Saturn, Oakland, La Salle and Pontiac.

I conclude that most attempts to produce and market electric vehicles in the Twentieth Century and in the early years of this one were not successful. Now we are told, that the future of the auto industry is in electric vehicles, a claim that could have been made in 1909 or so. What is different this time around? I must be missing something important.

One of Divco's founders was Detroit Electric Chief Engineer Charles M. Bacon. The one prototype electric delivery truck designed by Bacon was built by Detroit Electric and a total failure. Excessive weight and limited range doomed the project. Bacon and associates would go on to form the Detroit Industrial Vehicle Company in 1926 but the vehicles would use gasoline engines. The trucks used Continental engines at the beginning and Divco was ultimately purchased at auction by Continental Motors Corporation in 1932. The Model U introduced in 1938 is the basic design many are familiar with used a gasoline engine during the lifetime of the design.
While electric automobiles are excellent transportation for an urban environment attempting to sell a $16,000-20,000 car for over $40,000 will never work no matter how popular the technology is. The Chevrolet Volt is the latest victim of that tactic.

[softailrider]

If you have an electric only vehicle and you have a life, you’re going to need two cars. The electric only one is going to be your glorified around town grocery getter. If you want to take any kind of a road trip, even going up to Traverse City, I don’t think you’re taking the electric only vehicle. Who wants to go hunting around for a charging port when you can just fill up at 2 or 3 dollars a gallon.

[EGrant]

I know this is a very specific example, and I understand your overall point about electric vehicles, but if you drive a Tesla, you can make one, 15 minute stop in Bay City to charge your car and complete the journey from Detroit to TC. The network of Tesla charging stations is pretty extensive at this point.

Now, if you are looking for a Big 3 electric vehicle to make that trip, yeah, just take a gas car.

[Lowell]

Great report Wazootyman. I have know a few Volt owners and all have praised them like you have. The big plus was, as you note, the fall-back to onboard gas-electricity production. I agree that GM would benefit by maintaining a hybrid replacement option.

We are in an age reminiscent of when steam-powered boats arrived and there were still a lot of "hybrid" steam and sail ships. Just as steam won out so will electric as batteries get smaller, faster-charging, and longer distance.

My niece, her hubby and two toddlers drove here from rural West Va. for Thanksgiving in a Tesla Model 3. They stopped once for a charge-up, which took about 45 minutes, but with toddlers they had to stop and eat anyway. They sing the praises of it.

[softailrider]

I have seen in the COD, one residential EV charging station, purpose built, in front of a single family house. This was on the narrow grass strip between the street and the sidewalk. It was on a pole with a light on top. I do not remember what street it was on, but it was on the middle west side. I took a picture of it which, of course , I don’t know how to post.

[poobert]

I think the Volt was poorly marketed, poorly sold by the dealers, and unfairly became the victim of stupid politics. It's truly the perfect car for a lot of people, they just don't realize it. It is a bit small, that's about the only downside.

I drive a Volt and couldn't agree with this more. I find that virtually everyone I talk about think it is either an ordinary hybrid or straight electric vehicle. The dealer I bought it from openly told me they didn't know much about the vehicle [[even the basics, like how far it could go on a charge, roughly).

You get the best of both worlds; a gas vehicle when you need it and straight electric whenever you don't.

But GM is a stupid company perpetually run by stupid people. They've failed by nearly every metric in the last 40 years. I'm just going to keep buying used Volts until something better comes along.

[Ray1936]

I drive from my home in Las Vegas to Detroit every year; used to be twice a year in my younger day. I'd need one helluva extention cord to make that trip in an electric car. What's top range; 140 miles maybe?

[poobert]

I drive from my home in Las Vegas to Detroit every year; used to be twice a year in my younger day. I'd need one helluva extention cord to make that trip in an electric car. What's top range; 140 miles maybe?

Tesla is around 400.

If you're okay to consider plug in hybrids electric vehicles, the Volt switches to a gas engine when its charge is depleted and functions like a regular car. You could drive it full electric for 50 miles and then from Paris to Saigon on gas without ever charging again if you wanted.

[EastsideAl]

"But GM is a stupid company perpetually run by stupid people. They've failed by nearly every metric in the last 40 years."

Ain't this the truth. That's why I have no confidence at all in their recently announced "restructuring". Failing to market the Volt properly or to give their dealers enough information to properly sell and service them, in a growing market for electric vehicles, then summarily killing it off, is symptomatic of their deeper dysfunctions.

My cousin who works there is a bit dim too, but even he has plenty of tales of how insular and clueless they are. He saw what was coming and got out of headquarters and back overseas while the getting's good.

[canuck]

Funny thing is the Bolt, the all-electric car is probably the best vehicle right now. Teslas are at the bottom of the list in reliability as a brand. GM is not doing good at marketing the Bolts and Volts, they are not convinced of their future imprint, I suppose. The new Nissan Leaf is on hold and should get 400km autonomy, and the Bolt does that and is much more reliable than Tesla according to Consumer Report's polls and rigorous testing.

[oladub]

Mary Barra seems committed to EV's but there is a breakdown between her and sales. The Volt is a remarkable car. Two of my sons own Volts and wouldn't consider going back to non-EV gas engines. However, both would jump at the opportunity to buy a Tesla. One said that the jump between a Tesla and a Volt is about the difference between the jump between a Volt and gas cars.

Last year in Paris, an Arab taxi driver talked me out of Teslas. He said he had to buy a Tesla because something like 30% of the taxi fleet had to be EV's and that was the only way into the airport taxi business for him. He thought a Mercedes taxi would have been cheaper. Besides the dead time charging, once his warranty ran out, mirrors and doors gave him problems and were expensive to fix.

Back to GM: I don't recall ever seeing a Volt advertisement on TV. Chevrolet salesmen are notorious for being ignorant of or indifferent to EV technology. And then there are the seats. The Bolt seat was the most uncomfortable car seat I've ever experienced but even a Volt seat gives me a backache. Do a Google search for "Bolt seats uncomfortable". The 2019 Bolt seats are said to be better but why lose EV sales selling crappy seats?

My two offers on Volts were fiascos. The Chevy dealer offered one Volt a couple of thousand dollars below sticker price in writing to me. Another current model Volt with 6,000 miles was much cheaper than that but I wanted a statement that it was eligible for the $7,500 rebate. I came back the next day to offer $400 less than the offered price on the first car to be told that the dealer's offer of the previous day with no mention of expiration was now invalid and the cost was now $1,500 more and that the sales manager would not sign anything guaranteeing the rebate being applicable to the second car. Sorry Mary, but no sale.

[Johnnny5]

I'm not 100% sure, but I assume the reason GM wasn't pushing the Volt is because it was a gigantic money loser for them from the start, and they likely lost a bundle on each one they pushed out of the factory. GM probably just could not see any point in the future at which the line would be profitable, and at the end of the day that's why these corporations operate.

This is the problem with many of the new electric and hybrid vehicles. The manufacturers simply are not able to charge enough per vehicle to get past the costs of development and manufacturing. Even Tesla is losing billions every year trying to make these cars, and they have the benefit of being considered a status symbol, and the pricing power that comes with it.

The only way I see things changing for electrics [[Or hybrid electrics) in the near term is if the purchase costs come way down, or the costs of operating a traditional combustion engine go way up. If gas prices stay moderately low there's no way these vehicles make any sense financially. That's a likely scenario in which these cars are left as status symbols or niche vehicles for those that are concerned about their environmental footprint, and that's an awfully small market.

[Richard]

Or they can do what they are trying in France,pass carbon tax regulations that are so high that it makes it not feasible to drive.

UK is implementing a diesel ban,which leaves gasoline or electric,next will be a slow increase on their already high gasoline taxes.

Regulation and insurance companies worked in the late 60s to kill the performance cars,I am thinking that is what they will do to hasten to move to battery.

[Johnnny5]

Artificially raising the costs of fuel through taxes is one way it may happen, but as Macron discovered that's not going to be an easy task.

[Richard]

^ it brings a whole new meaning to adding fuel to the fire.

[softailrider]

Funny thing is the Bolt, the all-electric car is probably the best vehicle right now. Teslas are at the bottom of the list in reliability as a brand. GM is not doing good at marketing the Bolts and Volts, they are not convinced of their future imprint, I suppose. The new Nissan Leaf is on hold and should get 400km autonomy, and the Bolt does that and is much more reliable than Tesla according to Consumer Report's polls and rigorous testing.

Hardly ever see a Bolt anywhere. When I do see one, they look like they’re fun but I’m struck by how small they are.

[canuck]

Hardly ever see a Bolt anywhere. When I do see one, they look like they’re fun but I’m struck by how small they are.

Yes, I don't see too many Bolts up in Montreal either. A friend bought one last year and is crazy about it, but then he is plain crazy to begin with. You are right about the smallness. It just isn't roomy enough for hauling stuff. Teslas are now pretty common, a lot of taxis are Teslas.

[Meddle]

My two offers on Volts were fiascos. The Chevy dealer offered one Volt a couple of thousand dollars below sticker price in writing to me. Another current model Volt with 6,000 miles was much cheaper than that but I wanted a statement that it was eligible for the $7,500 rebate.

Wait .... what? You wanted a new car rebate on a used car?

Was this a demo or something?