Are you the first born in your family?

[eriedearie]

I am. And sometimes I feel like I'm the problem solver. Things that mom and dad just cannot cope with - get dumped on me. Things my siblings cannot or won't deal with - get dumped on me. Somebody screws up, I have to clean up the mess.

Today's problems - Looks like my sister's home will be foreclosed on unless she pays the back mortgage payments. Mom and dad can afford to pay the back mortgage payments, and will have to pay her mortgage until she can find a job and do it herself. She will eventually have to pay them back [[if she finds a job).

Does anyone here have any suggestions on how I go about seeing to it that us other siblings have some kind of protection when it comes to mom and dad's estate? They don't have much - just your typical hard-working father and stay-at-home mom background.

I guess what I'm looking for is for someone to tell me if we need an attorney to draw up papers stating that whatever money mom and dad have already given my sister would be deducted from the amount of her inheritance upon our parent's death. Now I would accept a verbal agreement from my sister, but our other sister I know she will not. My brother is overseas and out of the picture right now. This is up to me to do the right thing by all concerned.

Any advice?

[eriedearie]

Oops! I meant to post this on the connect side! Sorry folks.

[gazhekwe]

You need an elder Law attorney. What you are looking for is some kind of agreement attaching the help for the sister to her presumed share of the estate. If everyone is pretty much agreed going in, putting it in writing won't be a problem. If there is any disagreement, the parties who disagree may seek their own counsel. It could get nasty if not handled right.

[Maof]

Erie, just curious...have you talked to your folks about it yet? I guess that might be the first step. I gotta tell ya, you'd be surprised what happens, even if legal paperwork is done. I've seen it on both sides of the family and it's like a soap opera. Although my situation turned out fine, my better half is going through it now by a free loader sibling that moved in with the mother because he had health problems and was a big spender and had no where else to go. Now that the mother-in-law died, he thinks the house should be given to him for half of what's it worth because he was in the picture the last five years [[only for his benefit). Ugh, I try to stay out of it but it makes my blood boil.

[gazhekwe]

PS. The answer might be different if the family is not in the US.

[lilpup]

Maof, I had an uncle who lived with my grandparents almost his entire life, never paying rent. He succeeded in having my grandmother quit claim the house to him after my grandfather died. The other five siblings got totally screwed because the house was virtually the entire estate.

[gazhekwe]

One thing that is often not considered when one sibling lives with the aging parent, is the care factor. In some cases, the live in sibling ends up helping the parent to stay independent. That may not be the case all the time. Who does the driving, the shopping, the cleaning, the cooking? Does the live in sibling help the parent with bills? Contribute to the expenses? Those factors all need to be considered.

[oladub]

Suggestion: Instead of keeping track of the number of dollars, keep track of percentages. For instance, if there are four siblings, divide a large account, or combined liquid accounts that your parents aren't drawing from, into quarters. The sister who needs money now, takes what she needs from her quarter of the account. If she can eventually re-pay, great. If not, she gets the balance of her quarter when your parents pass away. The other three of you will no longer be concerned since your eventual shares are not at risk.

Because of the way money inflates and deflates in value and changes in interest rates, it would otherwise be difficult to precisely repay her loans. Using this system allows your sister to maintain her home until she finds a job and relieves the rest of you of some concerns about fairness.

[eriedearie]

Thank you all for your input on this. I like the ideas here.

I'm making up a pro and con list to go over with the concerned parties. I will surely bring up these scenarios. My parents won't think about which way to go on this. It is just too confusing for them. My sister is so depressed and disgusted that she can't find a job, all she can talk about is dying so that she won't have to put up with anything. Our other sister refuses to bend one way or the other, so it's left up to me.

When stuff like this happened in my husband's family - they all just rolled right over and let the sister that was living in the mother's house have it. Even though they thought it was not fair. They all caved.

I needed some ideas. I thank you all once again.

Edit: All my family lives in Metro Detroit. I'm the only one living across the creek!

[Maof]

erie, a little bit a different situation with your sisters situation. if your parents have everything in order you should all be fine, i hope. if they have a quick claim deed, make sure your parents names are not on it as was the case with my mother-in-law [[don't know why), because then it has to go through probate, which in turn, your paying more money out for a probate attorney. anyway, seems your sister is in a bad state of affairs and hope all works out for her.

[gazhekwe]

If you want to find an Elder Law attorney near your parents, go to www.NAELA.org. Go to the Public tab, and click the "Locate an Elder Law Attorney" button. Put in their zip code, and you will get a list. To get more names, just increase the distance factor.

CELA = Certified Elder Law Attorney. There are only twelve in Michigan, and those are the ones who have passed a national exam and been certified by NAELA.
CAP = Council of Advanced Practitioners, only one in Michigan

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I guess what I'm looking for is for someone to tell me if we need an attorney to draw up papers stating that whatever money mom and dad have already given my sister would be deducted from the amount of her inheritance upon our parent's death. Now I would accept a verbal agreement from my sister, but our other sister I know she will not. My brother is overseas and out of the picture right now. This is up to me to do the right thing by all concerned."

If the Parents want to give their money away, loan the money etc. It's nobodies business except them and the recipient. Unless they've appointed you power of attorney over their affairs. If they haven't, it's their business. If they have then the money would be loaned on your approval only.

I've seen these things play out over and over. Do yourself a big favor, forget what your parents have. Be thankful your sister has assistance available to her. Keep the peace, no amount of money is worth sacrificing your relationship with your siblings.

Your "Husband's" family sound as though they understand this. It's not "caving", they did the smart thing.

[ccbatson]

First, the parents in question have to want it. If so, elder law specialization would not hurt, but a straight forward stipulation in the will drawn up by a competent general practice attorney would suffice.

[eriedearie]

My parents have their will and power of attorney in place for each of them. Everything is to be divided equally. I have power of attorney over their affairs, [[here's where being the eldest comes into play).

Our youngest sister will not be told about this - A decision that mom and dad made, because it is something between them and my sister. My brother, over seas, really can't be bothered at this time. Besides, he would just tell me to do what I think is best. He has before in other situations.

I agree totally that what is between my parents and my unemployed sister should be between them. I just want to do right by everyone concerned.

My parents have asked for my input, as they do not know how to "go about it", [[their words, not mine), and they want to help my sister. I want to help her too. I will not let my sister become homeless.

Thank you everyone for your input. I really do appreciate having all the ideas and suggestions you've taken the time to give me.

That's why I love this forum. We have some of the most knowledgeable and caring people on here.

[elganned]

This scenario played out in my wife's family. Father long dead, mother incapacitated. My wife needed help being divorced with two small children, mom helped her out. When mom died, my wife's siblings were accusatory about her getting more than her "fair share" because mom had given her money when she was down. Feelings ran high and bitterness flowed; the situation was eventually resolved, but resentments on both sides still lurk below the surface some 20 years later.

You seem to have your situation in hand to your satisfaction, so I will offer no advice. But I have to say I have always been mystified by this situation as I never felt "entitled" to anything my parents had. Their money was theirs to do with as they saw fit--give it to my brothers, leave it to the church, set up a trust fund for the cat, whatever; it wasn't mine to say.

[gazhekwe]

But I have to say I have always been mystified by this situation as I never felt "entitled" to anything my parents had.

That is the way I feel, too, and fortunately my siblings seem to feel fine about it. Our mother left more than half her estate to her long time friend, with the rest to be split equally between us three. My sister groused about it but when it came time to write the check, she came through like a trooper. My brother used his share to start a coffee shop up north and it is so successful, he is looking at franchising. Yay!

Some cousins were having a battle over their mother's potential estate. One of the sibs is disabled and living with mother. We visited and found it to be a mutual caring kind of thing. Sis drives mom everywhere, and pays for many things. She put thousands into updating the home. She doesn't need any physical assistance and neither does mom. So, the sibs were making all kinds of fuss that she shouldn't get anything when mom goes. Well, they sold the house and bought a new one in both their names. 'Way!

And then, there's dad...

BTW, CC is right about the will and POA, except in this instance, it is better to set it up beforehand as acounting during the time of need will make things much easier when push come to shove.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Our youngest sister will not be told about this -"

I'll keep an eye in that direction for the mushroom cloud

[East Detroit]

Have your sister give your parents an IOU.

Then when the estate is settled, the IOU is an A/R that must be dispositioned as part of the process and no special will is required. By the way, a trust is much better than a will, unless you like Probate.

For me, yes, I am the first born. What do I expect? Nothing.

[jams]

My sister is so depressed and disgusted that she can't find a job, all she can talk about is dying so that she won't have to put up with anything.

She is not alone, many intelligent and talented people are frustrated.

[Ray1936]

I watch the Suze Orman show pretty regularly on Saturday nights. I just know her advice would be to tell your parents "no more" bailing out the kids in any way. Time and again, she tells viewers that there comes a time to cut the aid to the kiddies, and that time comes when they are out on their own. She claims parents do offspring no favors by assisting them over and over, and that they are just setting themselves up for a lifetime of aid and depriving themselves of their well earned retirement.

On the other hand, I keep bailing my two sons out time and time again. _

[jams]

Where is the "like" button?

[elganned]

I watch the Suze Orman show pretty regularly on Saturday nights. I just know her advice would be to tell your parents "no more" bailing out the kids in any way. Time and again, she tells viewers that there comes a time to cut the aid to the kiddies, and that time comes when they are out on their own. She claims parents do offspring no favors by assisting them over and over, and that they are just setting themselves up for a lifetime of aid and depriving themselves of their well earned retirement.

On the other hand, I keep bailing my two sons out time and time again. _

That might be true if your kids are "n'er-do-wells" who can't seem to find a way to make responsible decisions. But if they're responsible and trying hard, it's okay to help them over the hump now and then.

Besides, I'll never have enough to retire on so I might as well spend it on the kids and "check out" when I decide I've had enough of it all. No sense hanging around the station after the train's left.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "But if they're responsible and trying hard,"

Exactly, help those helping themselves. I see so many cases where people are ruined by their parents' generosity. As a past girlfriend used to say "Baby them and bury them" Which is quite true.

Parent's need to be "wise stewards".

[ccbatson]

Is the person in question looking for any and all work? As in waiting tables, house keeping, etc? If not, why not?

[eriedearie]

My sister has worked hard all her life. She started working at age 14 in a produce store. She used to work at a Red Barn way back when. She worked her way up in automotive. When she got a chance to better herself she went into architectural. Held that job for over 11 years until they brought in some A$$HOLE for her boss and when he got a hair up his a$$, suddenly she was let go. My sister has been knocked down so many times in life it is a wonder that she has not gone completely out of her freakin' mind. She went through a terrible divorce, her husband abused her for years. He still abuses her, not physically, but verbally and mentally. My sister is a beautiful and caring person. Growing up I never thought she would have such a tough life. I thought I would be the one that would be knocked around because I wasn't the pretty one, the one with the fine shape. My sister could have been a model. She could have had any man she wanted and there were other choices out there, but she chose the lowest of the low. And she's been paying for it ever since.

She has tried getting jobs in retail, wait staff, fast food, gone to any and all job fairs, she's got her resume and cover letters all over the place. No one is hiring. She's been on interviews. This has all been going on for almost 4 years now that she's been out of work. Why she is not getting called for any of the jobs, we can't figure it out. She feels she does good in the interviews she goes on. She goes in with a spring in her step and a good attitude. And then she gets told "We have a few more applicants to interview and we'll get back with you." The old song and dance routine...and then they don't call - and when she calls for a follow-up - the job has been filled by another applicant!

She CANNOT catch a break. I have not seen my sister cry since she was a baby - she is a very proud and staunch person, today I held her in my arms while she cried, racking, shoulder heaving sobs into the side of my head. Do you know how that hurt me? This is a gal that has all along saved every penny she could. She had a really good 401K - a really nice nest egg. It is all gone. She's 53 god- damned years old - and now has nothing, zero, zilch, nada - 0.

I know there are a lot of people in those shoes. But dammit - this is MY sister! It was not supposed to turn out this way for her.

We're going to do all we can for her. In the meantime, I do appreciate any and all input. Any ideas - anything from you guys. Keep it coming, I welcome all of your input.