Duggan: Scooters are here to stay

**Lowell** · October-30-18, 06:39 AM

One of the more visible changes to the downtown area, and now spreading to the neighborhoods, is the appearance of GPS-connected short-rental scooters.

While there have been complaints, it appears that the overall opinion of their presence and usefulness is highly favorable. Add Mayor Duggan to the supporters.

Duggan dismissed some of the complaints heard about the city's new scooters operated by the Bird and Lime companies. Duggan said he hears more complaints about the city's new protected bicycle lanes than about the scooters.

Asked about reports of more broken bones from scooter accidents, Duggan retorted, “That's such BS!” He said there have been few if any injuries confirmed. And while the city is still experimenting with how to deploy the new scooters, he said the scooters have quickly become part of the city's mobility options.

And that's important, he said, in a city with relatively few taxicabs and no light rail commuter system.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...an/1805052002/

Anyone have any experiences to share? Trying one is on my bucket list.

It is also a job creator as with the guy I talked with in Eastern Market whose job is to collect and recharge them.

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**Scottathew** · October-30-18, 07:06 AM

I like that the scooters have increased mobility. I ride a bus to my job downtown and I've seen people use scooters to bridge the gap between the bus stop and their place of work.

However, there's a big issue with etiquette and safety. I've been "buzzed" by scooters quite a few times. What I mean by "buzzed" is when a scooter that is not within my field of view [[typically behind me) passes very close to me without warning while going at a high rate of speed for a sidewalk.

When riding a bike in Michigan the law says that I can use the sidewalk but must warn pedestrians audibly via either some kind of noise like a bell or my voice that I am passing them from behind.

These scooters, with the way they're being used today are simply not safe for pedestrians. I've contacted one of the companies to voice my concerns and they responded by saying that scooters "should be operated in the road". Well that's nice, but that's not how they're being used. I was also told to "report unsafe riders". I'm not sure how the hell I could do that!

I think they'll end up being a good thing, but people need to adjust how they use them. Perhaps some education campaigns and periodic law enforcement would get people to think twice.

**Lowell** · October-30-18, 07:43 AM

With all the tort lawyers about it would seem that a lot of lawsuits are impending.

**detroitsgwenivere** · October-30-18, 07:47 AM

My only issue with them is that the riders seem to get off of the scooters and then leave them exactly where they got off of them... middle of the sidewalk, entrances to buildings, where you're trying to park, etc. I saw a guy last week literally hurl one across the street into the side of a building after he tripped on it.

**poobert** · October-30-18, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by 48307

However, there's a big issue with etiquette and safety. I've been "buzzed" by scooters quite a few times. What I mean by "buzzed" is when a scooter that is not within my field of view [[typically behind me) passes very close to me without warning while going at a high rate of speed for a sidewalk.

When riding a bike in Michigan the law says that I can use the sidewalk but must warn pedestrians audibly via either some kind of noise like a bell or my voice that I am passing them from behind.

These scooters, with the way they're being used today are simply not safe for pedestrians. I've contacted one of the companies to voice my concerns and they responded by saying that scooters "should be operated in the road". Well that's nice, but that's not how they're being used. I was also told to "report unsafe riders". I'm not sure how the hell I could do that!

I think that is the two-fold, and very serious flaws with them:
1) The lack of etiquette, while operating and ceasing to operate them. This mirrors our society in general, from the cyber realm to the Presidential, in which the feelings of others are something not only to be disregarded but often flirted with and abused. Not sure that can be fixed in our lifetimes for a variety of reasons.
2) The company obviously doesn't intend to address complaints or provide a remedy. Similar to Uber and Facebook, they're digging in under the "fuck off, we're just a platform" mantra, absolving themselves of any social or corporate responsibility. We've seen that doesn't always hold up, but I don't think there has been a clear precedent established there and it seems to vary across jurisdictions.

I think of it like ridesharing: a potentially very good concept severely hampered by a lack of foresight, planning and responsibility. Uber has/had the potential to revolutionize transportation but instead, in the name of maximizing profits, chose to put its drivers and passengers at risk and alienate itself from municipalities but simply flooding them with endless unregulated, uncertified, untrained employees [[while refusing to take responsibility for them as such) and vehicles.

Not surprisingly, people are destroying them en-masse. When you leave, in many cases, thousands of pieces of your shit in the right-of-way, what do you expect to happen? I also wonder about the deterioration of these things. The people who charge them are supposed to report maintenance issues, but what do they care? Loyalty to their non-employer?!

**jcole** · October-30-18, 09:37 AM

My husband and I were driving down Michigan Ave a few Saturdays ago and some idiot was on one of these scooters, swerving back and forth between the two westbound lanes like a kid on a bicycle without a care in the world. About the 3rd time he swerved in front of us and Ted had to hit the brakes so as not to hit him, Ted laid on the horn. Idiot boy turns around on his Lime, starts flipping us off and swings right in front of the car, finger extended and screaming at us. I think they need to post rules and enforce them for these "toys". As far as I know, they aren't street legal and are supposed to be used IN THE BIKE LANES or on a sidewalk. If they ARE street legal, swerving in and out of all the lanes while wearing earbuds certainly isn't legal. And, yes, I see them lying all over the place. Saw one on Livernois and 7 yesterday, in the middle of the sidewalk, abandoned and cold

**K-slice** · October-30-18, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by jcole

My husband and I were driving down Michigan Ave a few Saturdays ago and some idiot was on one of these scooters, swerving back and forth between the two westbound lanes like a kid on a bicycle without a care in the world. About the 3rd time he swerved in front of us and Ted had to hit the brakes so as not to hit him, Ted laid on the horn. Idiot boy turns around on his Lime, starts flipping us off and swings right in front of the car, finger extended and screaming at us. I think they need to post rules and enforce them for these "toys". As far as I know, they aren't street legal and are supposed to be used IN THE BIKE LANES or on a sidewalk. If they ARE street legal, swerving in and out of all the lanes while wearing earbuds certainly isn't legal. And, yes, I see them lying all over the place. Saw one on Livernois and 7 yesterday, in the middle of the sidewalk, abandoned and cold

Your observations are about the same as mine. I know there are many people who use them respectfully and for good, legitimate purposes, I am one of them on occasion. HOWEVER, more often than not I see these scooters being used as tools of annoyance by punks from the hood and suburban tourists. The image of downtown as nothing but a playground needs to end and these scooters aren't helping. I would much rather see a push to expand MoGo than add more of these electric toys.

The issues they cause outweigh the benefits. What's wrong with just walking or riding a bike...

**aj3647** · October-30-18, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by jcole

Saw one on Livernois and 7 yesterday, in the middle of the sidewalk, abandoned and cold

Did you take it to the nearest shelter?

**Honky Tonk** · October-30-18, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Did you take it to the nearest shelter?

Don't do that. If no one claims it in 30 days, they put it to sleep.

**Scottathew** · October-30-18, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Don't do that. If no one claims it in 30 days, they put it to sleep.

**Meddle** · October-30-18, 01:10 PM

No dis-assemble!!!

**DetroitSoldier** · October-30-18, 02:39 PM

I know multiple people who have been injured walking out of our downtown office building. While some responsibility lies with the operator of the scooter, I think a lot of problems will be avoided as people learn to look both ways when they exit doorways. Due to a lack of pedestrian and bike traffic for so many years, this was never an issue. However this is quickly changing.

**Scottathew** · October-30-18, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier

While some responsibility lies with the operator of the scooter, I think a lot of problems will be avoided as people learn to look both ways when they exit doorways.

The issue is that you'd have to exit a doorway like your crossing a street to catch a scooter weaving through sidewalk traffic at 15 miles per hour. You'd have to come to the threshold of a door, look left, look right, and then look left again, and then exit the building. That's not feasible for buildings that have tens of thousands of exit events per day.

I'm not making that speed figure up. The top speed of a Bird scooter is 15 miles per hour and the top speed of a Lime scooter is 14.8 miles per hour. [[Source: https://www.cnet.com/news/electric-s...mp-spin-scoot/)

These scooters aren't even supposed to be on the sidewalks. Bikes are allowed to be on sidewalks but must be careful of, audibly warn, and yield to pedestrians.

Given those facts I would say the scooter operators are 100% at fault for collisions. When I ride my bike downtown I use it in the street. When I don't have a choice and have to be on a sidewalk I slow down and yield to pedestrians.

**iheartthed** · October-30-18, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

My only issue with them is that the riders seem to get off of the scooters and then leave them exactly where they got off of them... middle of the sidewalk, entrances to buildings, where your trying to park, etc. I saw a guy last week literally hurl one across the street into the side of a building after he tripped on it.

This is what I don't like about them as well. No matter what city I've seen them in [[NYC, DC, SF, LA), there is a problem with them being left in the middle of sidewalks. But that problem is fixable.

**Zacha341** · October-30-18, 03:42 PM

Utterly RIDICULOUS Behavior - I've also noted of some scoot-riders. That same person could find themselves in intractable pain, paralyzed from the sternum down, cathed, on a ventilator. Or worse causing that horror upon someone else.

Not surprising though in this increasingly self-involved world.

Originally Posted by jcole

My husband and I were driving down Michigan Ave a few Saturdays ago and some idiot was on one of these scooters, swerving back and forth between the two westbound lanes like a kid on a bicycle without a care in the world. About the 3rd time he swerved in front of us and Ted had to hit the brakes so as not to hit him, Ted laid on the horn. Idiot boy turns around on his Lime, starts flipping us off and swings right in front of the car, finger extended and screaming at us....

**O3H** · October-30-18, 06:51 PM

Let's mix them with Edibles and really strong Pot
- that'll be fun everywhere, the cops, the lawyers and the courts

**Johnnny5** · October-30-18, 09:42 PM

Like them or not, I don't think we'll need to worry about these scooters for long. These rental companies are simply hemmoraging too much money. It's just not a sustainable service to have an unprotected market and leave $1000 scooters on the street charging people a mere pittance to use them. As interest rates rise, and the number of willing investors evaporates most of these ridiculous money losing startups are going to go belly up.

**Bham1982** · October-30-18, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

This is what I don't like about them as well. No matter what city I've seen them in [[NYC, DC, SF, LA), there is a problem with them being left in the middle of sidewalks. But that problem is fixable.

These scooters are illegal in NYC. I doubt you've seen them, as none of the companies operate there.

I have no idea of legal status in other cities, but they seem to be problematic for a variety of reasons; safety/liability being the biggest.

I'm not surprised they're actually being encouraged in Detroit, given that city leaders view downtown as some sort of playground for suburban nitwits. Might as well put up a gate and charge admission to the "Look, it's a real city, I swear!" funhouse, as Becki from Northville careens down the sidewalk, texting and mowing down pedestrians.

Also, doubt this is a long-term sustainable thing, given they charge almost nothing and these are expensive toys. Will probably last as long as Pokemon Go.

**iheartthed** · October-30-18, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

These scooters are illegal in NYC. I doubt you've seen them, as none of the companies operate there.

I have no idea of legal status in other cities, but they seem to be problematic for a variety of reasons; safety/liability being the biggest.

I've definitely seen them in Manhattan, but they were probably personal. Them being illegal would explain why there aren't rental companies like other cities.

I've been in D.C. and S.F. this month and they are everywhere in both of those cities.

**Bham1982** · October-30-18, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I've definitely seen them in Manhattan, but they were probably personal. Them being illegal would explain why there aren't rental companies like other cities.

I've been in D.C. and S.F. this month and they are everywhere in both of those cities.

NYC has too much streetlife and congestion for this junk. Imagine hordes of tourists swerving through Herald Square or SoHo [[God forbid Times Square).

DC and SF can probably take it in small doses, but I still think this is a fad; gone in a year. Winter might even kill it in cold weather places.

**iheartthed** · October-30-18, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

NYC has too much streetlife and congestion for this junk. Imagine hordes of tourists swerving through Herald Square or SoHo [[God forbid Times Square).

DC and SF can probably take it in small doses, but I still think this is a fad; gone in a year. Winter might even kill it in cold weather places.

It probably wouldn't be much different than biking. I would try it.

**Zacha341** · October-31-18, 02:52 AM

Hah! Now that was just wrong! ----

Originally Posted by O3H

Let's mix them with Edibles and really strong Pot
- that'll be fun everywhere, the cops, the lawyers and the courts.

**Lowell** · October-31-18, 09:25 AM

I can just about guarantee they are mixed with edibles and pot, alcohol too--after all a huge portion of motor vehicle drivers are. The positive, if any, is that one-handed driving and texting is far more difficult on scooters.

I'm willing to cut scooters some slack particularly because the offer a partial solution to transit "last mile" issues and those who don't have/don't want cars. There is a need for some ordnances regarding speed and yielding to pedestrians.

Since they are GPS controlled it would seem possible to remotely throttle them down when in congested settings.

**GPCharles** · October-31-18, 09:35 AM

I use them a bit in the CBD. There are no bike lanes down here, so I mostly ride on the sidewalk at the bottom end of the speed available. I'm mid 60s with bad knees so it works out for me, although I do get some weird looks as I scooter around with a suit and tie on.

**jackie5275** · October-31-18, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by jcole

And, yes, I see them lying all over the place. Saw one on Livernois and 7 yesterday, in the middle of the sidewalk, abandoned and cold

I've seen the same 4 scooters left behind on the north side of Michigan Ave at W. Grand Blvd for about 3 weeks. When I first saw them, I was surprised to see them that far out from the downtown/midtown areas.