Gunman Opens Fire Kills Many in Synagog

[aj3647]

Usually bolt or lever action hunting rifles or break barrel shotguns. You had to work to fire multiple rounds. There weren't many pump action shotguns carried that way unless you shot trap.

This. Nobody carries out a mass shooting with a bolt-action rifle.

In terms of Richard's nostalgic view of history, it's important to realize that the proliferation of the AR platform and other semi-automatic "sporting" rifles in civilian hands didn't really begin until the 1990's. And they didn't truly take off in popularity until 2008, when Obama was elected and fears of never-realized "gun bans" sent sales skyrocketing and put millions of these weapons into civilian circulation. So you can actually plot the proliferation of semi-automatic weapons with detachable high-capacity magazines with the incidence rate of mass shootings and you'll see them trend upwards at the same time.

[Maof]

I think he's talking about rural schools where they had gun racks for hunting rifles in the back of their "pick em up" trucks. Those were usually shotguns not M1s or 30.06 Springfields. And they weren't riding around with them loaded or carrying them into schools and synagogues. Apples to oranges. Again.

Could be. I'm sure we'll find out.

[Meddle]

This. Nobody carries out a mass shooting with a bolt-action rifle.

I'm not exactly sure which one Charles Whitman used more.

[Richard]

I think he's talking about rural schools where they had gun racks for hunting rifles in the back of their "pick em up" trucks. Those were usually shotguns not M1s or 30.06 Springfields. And they weren't riding around with them loaded or carrying them into schools and synagogues. Apples to oranges. Again.

Cool,you also went through the city of Minneapolis school system and were there,so that’s how you know,maybe we were in the same classes?

I asked the question,what has changed in society to cause the increase in violence.

9 posts later and the best you guys can come up with is trying to discredit what I have posted,and continued your focus on guns.

I guess my question has been answered and it has nothing to do with guns.

[aj3647]

I'm not exactly sure which one Charles Whitman used more.

Well no one uses them NOW, not in the era of AR-15s. One of the reasons why Whitman likely brought so many firearms with him was to compensate for the reduced rate of fire and ammunition capacity of many of those firearms. Imagine what Whitman could have done if he had access to the arsenal that Stephen Paddock had in Las Vegas.

[Meddle]

I asked the question,what has changed in society to cause the increase in violence.

I guess my question has been answered and it has nothing to do with guns.

In fact, it has been answered. I've outlined my days at Cerveny when there were lines of DPD Riot Cars parked outside at the end of the school day. There was enough school violence in Detroit schools then to warrant that and an armed DPD officer inside the school. There were shootings in Cooley and several other schools during my time. But at that time, most of the violence was gang fights and knife attacks. Some had guns, but there were a lot harder for a school kid to get. If they did, it was usually a cheap Saturday Night Special that had as much chance of hurting the shooter as anyone else. If anything now, society is more peaceful overall. You can see that by the dramatically lower homicide rates. Numbers have fallen to the low hundreds in Detroit instead of nearly a thousand.

What has changed is the proliferation of relatively inexpensive high power, rapid-fire near military grade weapons. The people most responsible for that are the NRA and their supporters and paid lackeys in Congress and on the Federal Bench.

As a result, a single annoyed knothead can now easily take out 15 or 20 people in seconds whereas in my time they could only punch or stab a couple. Plus, the goombah can get lots of practice with kill for points videogames.

[Richard]

This. Nobody carries out a mass shooting with a bolt-action rifle.

In terms of Richard's nostalgic view of history, it's important to realize that the proliferation of the AR platform and other semi-automatic "sporting" rifles in civilian hands didn't really begin until the 1990's. And they didn't truly take off in popularity until 2008, when Obama was elected and fears of never-realized "gun bans" sent sales skyrocketing and put millions of these weapons into civilian circulation. So you can actually plot the proliferation of semi-automatic weapons with detachable high-capacity magazines with the incidence rate of mass shootings and you'll see them trend upwards at the same time.

This nothing.

A pistol is a semi automatic weapon,it does not matter if you are shooting a semi automatic pistol or a semi automatic AK-47 they are only going to fire as quick as one can pull the trigger.

A 1890s six shooter is semi automatic.

The SKY news screw up that I mentioned where they reported that the weapon that was used was banned two years ago and the NRA filed suit to stop it,should have been reported as the extended magazine reportably used in the shooting was the target of a ban.

Weapons are rated by how many rounds per minute they can fire,so if you have an AR-15 that is rated at 180,it does not matter on that or the size of the magazine because nobody can pull the trigger 180 times in a minute.

AJ you called it an AR platform which tells me that you do not even know what the “AR” stands for.

It is kinda hard to plot anything when you are not even familiar with the basics of the weapons that you are referring to or even most likely never even fired one.

[Meddle]

A 1890s six shooter is semi automatic.

Perhaps to one who is highly experienced with THAT particular handgun, have very strong hands and extensive practice. Most fools wouldn't be able to pick one up they've never held and go at it. And then, you only have six. Not 30 or 40 or more.

[Richard]

In fact, it has been answered. I've outlined my days at Cerveny when there were lines of DPD Riot Cars parked outside at the end of the school day. There was enough school violence in Detroit schools then to warrant that and an armed DPD officer inside the school. There were shootings in Cooley and several other schools during my time. But at that time, most of the violence was gang fights and knife attacks. Some had guns, but there were a lot harder for a school kid to get. If they did, it was usually a cheap Saturday Night Special that had as much chance of hurting the shooter as anyone else. If anything now, society is more peaceful overall. You can see that by the dramatically lower homicide rates. Numbers have fallen to the low hundreds in Detroit instead of nearly a thousand.

What has changed is the proliferation of relatively inexpensive high power, rapid-fire near military grade weapons. The people most responsible for that are the NRA and their supporters and paid lackeys in Congress and on the Federal Bench.

As a result, a single annoyed knothead can now easily take out 15 or 20 people in seconds whereas in my time they could only punch or stab a couple. Plus, the goombah can get lots of practice with kill for points videogames.

A single annoyed knot head can take out a group of people with a simple legal mason jar filled with gasoline.

I would agree that the amount of kill for points video games may have an influence on border line goombahs,but then again I have never seen a mobsters mistress shoot anything up.

I have also seen parents that have turned to the computer as a babysitter,I have an acquaintance that is a single mother and she allows her son to be on it from morning to night and when she try’s to take it away to make him go outside to play,he becomes angry and violent.

I do not think it is healthy for children of young ages to be subject to the level of violence that is shown day and night.

[aj3647]

AJ you called it an AR platform which tells me that you do not even know what the “AR” stands for.

It is kinda hard to plot anything when you are not even familiar with the basics of the weapons that you are referring to or even most likely never even fired one.

Oh do you mean ArmaLite? And yes, it is a platform [[of "family" of weapons) that includes the AR-15, the AR-10, the M-16, the M-4, and numerous other variants of the same design. Just like how the AK or Kalashnikov is a platform from which numerous specific variants exist [[AK-47, AK-74, AKM, etc.) Different guns, same platform.

That's OK though, words are hard, I don't expect you to understand most of them. Especially the ones that have more than one syllable. Next time I'll dumb it down to a second-grade reading comprehension for you, Trump-style.

[Meddle]

AJ you called it an AR platform which tells me that you do not even know what the “AR” stands for.

Named by the designer Armalite who had financial troubles and sold it to Colt who let the patents expire.

Do I get a TrickyDicky free week on DYes?

[Richard]

Perhaps to one who is highly experienced with THAT particular handgun, have very strong hands and extensive practice. Most fools wouldn't be able to pick one up they've never held and go at it. And then, you only have six. Not 30 or 40 or more.

If you look at it most if not all of the mass shootings have been held by people with weapons expirence,the same shooters can reload a six shooter with speed loaders just as fast as they can drop a magazine and replace it.

A matter of seconds.

When it comes to guns period,I agree most without experience would never be able to even operate it,so a majority of the population is already out of the picture.

So now it becomes narrowed down to a small percentage of the population with the capabilities.

Then you have to look at the physiological aspect,there is a trigger point in ones mind that prevents us from inflicting violence on another,some have a high tolerance of it while others have a low tolerance of it.

I think people get more obsessed with the guns part that the mental part is being overlooked or the driving factors,the gun is just the tool being used after the motivating factor has already kicked in.

It is not the only tool advailable,we see cars,trucks,explosives,acid in squirt guns,knife attacks anything can be used to cause harm.

UK has a ban on everything but single shot shot guns,they have a very restrictive ban on knives,but yet they still have bombings,shootings,knife attacks,acid attacks,car attacks and so on.

Trying to ban everything that could be used in an attack works about as well as the war on drugs,it gives people a false sense of security while making them feel good because they think that something has been accomplished when it does nothing to solve the underlying issiues.

[Richard]

Named by the designer Armalite who had financial troubles and sold it to Colt who let the patents expire.

Do I get a TrickyDicky free week on DYes?

Yea okay you get a shiny gold star,or I can just say,good job.

Thanks to Lowell,every week is free on DYes so that is out of my scope of deliverance.

Just as soon as you and AJ can prove that you knew what it was when you commented on it and did not run to google for the answer.

90% of the population still thinks that it is short for Assault rifle because that is what the media likes to push it at,it is hardly an assault rifle.

[Meddle]

If you look at it most if not all of the mass shootings have been held by people with weapons expirence,the same shooters can reload a six shooter with speed loaders just as fast as they can drop a magazine and replace it.

A matter of seconds.

A modern day revolver, yes. An 1890s revolver? Not so sure about that.

[aj3647]

90% of the population still thinks that it is short for Assault rifle because that is what the media likes to push it at,it is hardly an assault rifle.

Richard, YOU are the one who wasn't aware that the AR was a family of weapons and not just one gun.

If you look at it most if not all of the mass shootings have been held by people with weapons expirence,the same shooters can reload a six shooter with speed loaders just as fast as they can drop a magazine and replace it.

A matter of seconds.

You'd have to re-load that revolver FIVE TIMES before you'd have to drop and load a new 30-rd magazine into an AR-15. Takes the same amount of time though, right Richard?

[Meddle]

90% of the population still thinks that it is short for Assault rifle because that is what the media likes to push it at,it is hardly an assault rifle.

Uhhhhh, say what now?


"In 1956, ArmaLite designed a lightweight assault rifle for military use and designated it the ArmaLite Rifle-15, or AR-15. Due to financial problems and limitations in terms of manpower and production capacity, ArmaLite sold the design and the AR-15 trademark along with the ArmaLite AR-10 to Colt's Manufacturing Company in 1959. In 1964, Colt began selling its own version with an improved semi-automatic design known as the Colt AR-15. After Colt's patents expired in 1977, an active marketplace emerged for other manufacturers to produce and sell their own semi-automatic AR-15 style rifles. Some versions of the AR-15 were classified as "assault weapons" and banned under the Federal Assault Weapons Ban.

In 2009, the term "modern sporting rifle" was coined by the National Shooting Sports Foundation for its survey that year as a marketing term used by the firearms industry to describe modular semi-automatic rifles including AR-15s."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle

It was designated as an assault rifle by the designer and patent holder and continues to be by the manufacturers. Only a 'sporting group' not associated with the weapon decided to called it something else to soften the image in the media.

[Meddle]

And yes, today it is more of a generic term used by several manufacturers due to Trademark issues:

Today, nearly every major firearm manufacturer produces its own generic AR-15 style rifle. As Colt continues to own and use the AR-15 trademark for its line of AR-15 variants, other manufacturers must use their own model numbers and names to market their AR-15 style rifles for commercial sale.

[aj3647]

And yes, today it is more of a generic term used by several manufacturers due to Trademark issues:

Today, nearly every major firearm manufacturer produces its own generic AR-15 style rifle. As Colt continues to own and use the AR-15 trademark for its line of AR-15 variants, other manufacturers must use their own model numbers and names to market their AR-15 style rifles for commercial sale.

No no no you have your facts all wrong. According to Richard, there is only one type of AR model of firearm. And he's the definitive expert on firearms, so there it is. You must be mistaken. Richard is never wrong.

[Richard]

^ not true,there was one time I thought I was wrong and was wrong in thinking so.

Okay AJ without useing google name the internal differences of a military version of a AR-15 verses the civilian version.

Next you will be saying there is no difference between a Ford Mustang with a 2.3 liter and one with a 5.0.

After all they look the same right?

Why the continued focus on guns,you got nothing else concerning why the increase in violence in society verses even 20 years ago?

[Richard]

Uhhhhh, say what now?


"In 1956, ArmaLite designed a lightweight assault rifle for military use and designated it the ArmaLite Rifle-15, or AR-15. Due to financial problems and limitations in terms of manpower and production capacity, ArmaLite sold the design and the AR-15 trademark along with the ArmaLite AR-10 to Colt's Manufacturing Company in 1959. In 1964, Colt began selling its own version with an improved semi-automatic design known as the Colt AR-15. After Colt's patents expired in 1977, an active marketplace emerged for other manufacturers to produce and sell their own semi-automatic AR-15 style rifles. Some versions of the AR-15 were classified as "assault weapons" and banned under the Federal Assault Weapons Ban.

In 2009, the term "modern sporting rifle" was coined by the National Shooting Sports Foundation for its survey that year as a marketing term used by the firearms industry to describe modular semi-automatic rifles including AR-15s."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle

It was designated as an assault rifle by the designer and patent holder and continues to be by the manufacturers. Only a 'sporting group' not associated with the weapon decided to called it something else to soften the image in the media.

Notice the some versions of the AR-15 were classified as assault weapons and banned under the federal weapons act?

So are the banned versions of weapons classified as “assault weapons” being used in the shootings?

If not why are they being called assault weapons when they are not classified as such?

Because it is just easier to say it is an assault weapon verses a weapon that looks like an assault weapon and sounds better?

Maybe splitting hairs but no different then useing the evil gun argument without looking at the whole picture.

[Meddle]

you got nothing else concerning why the increase in violence in society verses even 20 years ago?

We already covered that. Maybe you couldn't read because of the gunpowder smoke in front of your eyes?

Homicide and violent crime rates are generally down. Part of the perceived increase is discussed above, but there is also the issue of more things being classified as 'violent crimes' such as rape and lesser assaults. Isn't burglary now considered a violent crime in some stats where before it was almost always a property crime?

Plus various terror cases have come into the picture which are largely aided by military grade weapons and military [[or militia) trained people.

But even at that, are the number of individual cases up, or just the body count and news coverage?

Seems like I remember an awful lot of bombings around the US in the 60s and 70s by all sorts of home grown groups. But what i remember is that many of them targeted government buildings over night while they were unoccupied so they would damage property, but not cause casualties.

[canuck]

Notice the some versions of the AR-15 were classified as assault weapons and banned under the federal weapons act?

So are the banned versions of weapons classified as “assault weapons” being used in the shootings?

If not why are they being called assault weapons when they are not classified as such?

Because it is just easier to say it is an assault weapon verses a weapon that looks like an assault weapon and sounds better?

Maybe splitting hairs but no different then useing the evil gun argument without looking at the whole picture.

Man overboard! Quick! Someone throw Richard a life buoy.

[Meddle]

"The number of murder and other criminal homicide cases in Detroit dropped 12.5% in 2017, according to preliminary data released this week by the Detroit Police Department that put the number at 267 for the year.

That’s down from 305 in 2016, Detroit Police Chief James Craig said."

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...der/996116001/


In 1974, that rate was 751:

https://www.clickondetroit.com/featu...der-in-detroit

And 581 in 1983:

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/02...9773446706000/

[Meddle]

In '17, the rate was basically half that of '83. How exactly is that an increase?

[Richard]

Yea Canuck go ahead and laugh now but if the zombies attack you will be walking around like an extra in the walking dead.

The weak get eaten first,but even the weak can survive with a gun.