The Honduran Elephant In The Room

[JBMcB]

Whether or not it was a military coup does not explain why most Hondurans choosing to leave their country head straight to the U.S. border even after being offered Mexican visas

While I empathize with those Hondurans fleeing their country due to gang or political violence, THIS is the part I don't understand.

If your primary goal is to get away from violence, Costa Rica, Panama, Peru and Columbia are all MUCH closer than the US and are relatively stable for the region. To get to the US you have to pass through some pretty rough, gang-controlled territory in northern Mexico. Even southern and western Mexico are pretty decent.

[Richard]

I married a Columbian,one day we were entering the toll gates and she tells me how amazing this country is where even the elderly can work if they choose.

The US has something that those other countries do not,opportunity and a social safety net.

Over there,the young and pretty get first dibs on the jobs and when you become to old to work,it is on your family to support you,you do not work you do not eat.

That is also why England is so adamant about brexit,they have a social program that others do not,which makes it more desirable and the majority wiill gravitate to who ever has the safety net in place.

Look at the one city in California that has over 60,000 homeless,would it not be better to migrate to Canada? They are kinda stuck because in America even the homeless have it better then they do in those countries.

[Canadian Visitor]

That is also why England is so adamant about brexit,they have a social program that others do not,which makes it more desirable and the majority wiill gravitate to who ever has the safety net in place.

Prey tell. Which Social program is it that the UK has, that the rest of the EU lack? Think carefully. The UK having a far less robust social safety net than most of the EU....

The 52-48 support of Brexit that existed in the referendum has since evaporated, and it hasn't even happened yet.

The reason for the support was largely anti-Polish immigrant sentiment in small-town England, along w/resentment at the pace of change in life [[from Metric to gay rights) and a complete misunderstanding of how the UK's relationship to the EU worked or could work.

London, it should be noted, along w/Scotland voted to stay.

****

Look at the one city in California that has over 60,000 homeless,would it not be better to migrate to Canada? They are kinda stuck because in America even the homeless have it better then they do in those countries.

This is such complete and utter bullshit, yet again!

Just STFU.

Really. Your own wife, unless you found a complete moron must shudder every time your mouth opens in fear of how embarrassing what follows may be.

The homeless aren't in California because life is so awesome there for homeless people.

They are there because they won't freeze to death on the streets at night, and because they can't afford to go anywhere else.

[oladub]

The reason for the support was largely anti-Polish immigrant sentiment in small-town England, along w/resentment at the pace of change in life [[from Metric to gay rights) and a complete misunderstanding of how the UK's relationship to the EU worked or could work.

London, it should be noted, along w/Scotland voted to stay.

****

The homeless aren't in California because life is so awesome there for homeless people.

They are there because they won't freeze to death on the streets at night, and because they can't afford to go anywhere else.

I wasn't aware that "The reason for the support was largely anti-Polish immigrant sentiment in small-town England" included such animosity toward Polish immigrants. I would have thought it to be aimed more at other groups more associated with 'grooming' and violence in large cities in addition to cheap foreign labor competition. Was there a study indicating Poles were a primary trigger for Brexit? I was not surprised that London voted to stay.

The following arrogant statement might however provide some insight into why some supported Brexit. "The EU should "do its best to undermine" the "homogeneity" of its member states," The UN Migration Ministerial representative for migration has said." It was for the good of the EU economy of course "however difficult it may be to explain this to the citizens of those states". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395

I suppose it would be especially good for those who most profited from the economy. Candidate Obama in 2008 understood this too. ""You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them."
Of course, Obama's statement has more to do with sending jobs abroad to cheaper labor environments than importing cheaper foreign labor. Still, his statement is consistent with your observation that small town people were not happy with changes of life imposed on them.

I would add that the homeless in California are also there because California housing prices are among the highest in the U.S. and cheaper foreign labor has busted blue collar unions there. Note that Florida also has a benign winter climate where homeless people don't "freeze to death on the streets at night" but doesn't have the same degree of a homeless problem as California.

[Canadian Visitor]

I wasn't aware that "The reason for the support was largely anti-Polish immigrant sentiment in small-town England" included such animosity toward Polish immigrants. I would have thought it to be aimed more at other groups more associated with 'grooming' and violence in large cities in addition to cheap foreign labor competition. Was there a study indicating Poles were a primary trigger for Brexit? I was not surprised that London voted to stay.

Here's a piece on this issue.

https://www.humanityinaction.org/kno...euroscepticism

One excerpt:

Since Poland’s accession to the EU in 2004, Polish-born residents now account for well over 800,000 people, an addition of close to 750,000 people. As a result, Poland has overtaken India as the most common non-UK country of birth among UK residents

The piece goes on to discuss the economic impact of large waves of East European [[primarily but not exclusively Polish) to the UK. What it doesn't discuss is the link specifically to small towns.

But that can first off be clearly seen by looking at how different areas voted in respect of Brexit.

London, by far, voted to stay, while smaller communities, particularly in England overwhelmingly voted to go.

The breakdown has another interesting corollary, age.

Polling even back to the time of Brexit showed roughly 70% of young people in the UK voted to stay. Roughly 70% of seniors voted to leave.

What's worth noting is that small towns are aging and dying and the young are leaving for cities like London, or even for continental Europe.

The connections between a changing way of life, age, immigration and Euro-skepticism are quite clear and overlapping.Where the Polish issue comes up even more so, is that they are the immigrant group most likely to move to smaller communities. Immigrants from Africa and Asia are more likely to concentrate in larger urban centres.

[Canadian Visitor]

I would add that the homeless in California are also there because California housing prices are among the highest in the U.S. and cheaper foreign labor has busted blue collar unions there. Note that Florida also has a benign winter climate where homeless people don't "freeze to death on the streets at night" but doesn't have the same degree of a homeless problem as California.

The question is of course more complex than what I laid out in passing.

Though it certainly has nothing to do with anything Richard says, which was really my point.

Its worth saying that Cali's homelessness rate [[per capita) is actually less than New York's or Hawaii's, though obviously still very high.

Also the difference with Florida, when looked at per capita is slightly greater than 2 to 1.

Cali has 134,000 homeless, Fla 33,000, but Cali has double the population.

https://www.politifact.com/californi...kyrocketed-an/

An interesting thing came up when I was trying to compare Florida to Cali to see what reasons stand out for the variation [[other than Fl does have many cheaper areas to live).

Turns out, its more dangerous to be homeless in Fla.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...n_4453312.html

Also intriguing was the impact [[or not) of programs to bus homeless residents out of state [[programs exist both in Cali and Fla for this purpose)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-country-study

Also interesting [[albeit slim on detail), was a comparison of OC Fla vs OC Cali on this very issue.

https://www.ocregister.com/2017/11/1...-one-advocate/

[Zacha341]

Did Caravan Migrants Demand $50K from the U.S. to Return Home?

Glad to know this was a small number request. I was about to say 'how's about those Reparations for African Americans?' if request was broad and granted! [[I could use the money)

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ca...ts-return-pay/

https://www.politifact.com/facebook-...tes-50000-eac/

[Richard]

Population of Canada

37,104,027

Number of yearly homeless in Canada estimated

200,000 to 300,000

Population of California

39,776,830

Estimated yearly homeless.

135,139

Canada has considerably less social housing per capita than most OECD countries. The percentage of housing units in Canada that are considered social housing [[i.e. government-subsidized units for low- and moderate-income households) is approximately 5%. To put this into perspective, England’s rate is 18%, France’s is 19%, Sweden’s is 32% and the rate for the Netherlands is 34%.[1]

http://behindthenumbers.ca/2016/09/1...consultations/

As of 2006 Canada was the only G8 country that did not have a national housing program.Has that changed?

Canada is the only G8 country that does not have nation school lunch program for the poor and underprivileged.

Notice the pattern of how a country deals with their poor and underprivileged.

It is dangerous to be homeless in Florida with 3 examples given?

It would appear that the homeless deaths are a bit higher here.

At least 70 homeless people died in Toronto in the first nine months of 2017, an average of approximately 2 per week. The city’s medical officer of health, Dr. Eileen de Villa, reported that 57 were men, or 81 per cent, while 13 were women. The median age of those who died was 48.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/201.../home-j15.html

I thought that site was one that you could easily relate to CV.

As long as we are comparing.

CV the comment about my wife shows your lack of class while hiding under a persona and I am guessing that you would not have the balls to say it to my face.

Do try and keep up,the discussion was about what draws migrants to one country verses another.

[Canadian Visitor]

Population of Canada

37,104,027

Number of yearly homeless in Canada estimated

200,000 to 300,000

Population of California

39,776,830

Estimated yearly homeless.

135,139

I did not raise the issue of Cali homelessness, nor was I the one to compare it with central America or Canada, nor was I the one to introduce the subject of Florida.

I merely put facts on the table in order to dismiss the nonsense you post and to answer another poster's questions.

You on the other hand bring up issues entirely non-germane to the subject just to be an obnoxious troll.

Also, to show you yet again, how to compare apples to apples.......

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/30-00...ight-1.1413016

The 134,000 figure for Cali is on any given night.
That number for Canada is 30,000

The 200,000 plus is taken over a whole year and includes people who were [[but no longer are) homeless

Sigh. As usual posting misleading BS.

At least 70 homeless people died in Toronto in the first nine months of 2017, an average of approximately 2 per week. The city’s medical officer of health, Dr. Eileen de Villa, reported that 57 were men, or 81 per cent, while 13 were women. The median age of those who died was 48.

That is tragic. Toronto's real estate prices and rents have doubled net of inflation in the last several years and that has had a very negative effect on this situation.

Shelter beds have been increased, but not fast enough, and in any event are a band-aid solution.

There will be a new Federal housing benefit starting next year, but it will only be a relative drop in the bucket, providing, if I recall, $300 per month in support.

Toronto has approved building more non-profit/affordable rental housing, but again, scale is an issue given the size of the problem.

Some sort of pricing correction is likely needed in order to address this issue, absent that there will have to be much greater public investment.

CV the comment about my wife shows your lack of class while hiding under a persona and I am guessing that you would not have the balls to say it to my face.

I didn't insult your wife at all. I didn't even mention her terrible taste in men.

I insulted you. Which you deserve and work to deserve every single day. I genuinely feel sorry for your wife and anyone else who knows you. But I digress.

As for what I'd say to you in person, if you spewed the same kind of BS then, that you do here; I wouldn't tolerate it then either.

[Richard]

Nor were you the one to mention Florida?

Do you even read your own posts?

You pulled the comparison of Cali and Florida as a way of discrediting me,so you let your emotions override your brain.

Show me somebody’s post outside of yours that mentioned Florida.

And you still do not get the part about how nobody gives a crap what you think about me personally,that is your problem and nobody else.

You publicly announced that you are going to block me,you cannot even do as you say,so educated or not,your word meens nothing,which shows your credibility as a person.

If you feel so needy,get a dog.

Starting from post #226 do you have anything to add outside of cheap shots and directions not related?

Yea,I thought not.

[Canadian Visitor]

Nor were you the one to mention Florida?

Do you even read your own posts?

You pulled the comparison of Cali and Florida as a way of discrediting me,so you let your emotions override your brain.

Show me somebody’s post outside of yours that mentioned Florida.

And you still do not get the part about how nobody gives a crap what you think about me personally,that is your problem and nobody else.

You publicly announced that you are going to block me,you cannot even do as you say,so educated or not,your word meens nothing,which shows your credibility as a person.

If you feel so needy,get a dog.

Starting from post #226 do you have anything to add outside of cheap shots and directions not related?

Yea,I thought not.

Several other posters have found at least some of my posts useful or interesting.

That can't be said for you. Not a single person likes anything you post.

Not even equally obnoxious people, they can't stand you either.

If you don't want to be insulted you can choose from the following menu:

1) Don't post [[pretty please, pick this one)
2) Post only intelligent, thoughtful things, don't insult other posters, other countries, immigrants or anyone else. I will accord you the respect such posting would merit, as I already do for other posters.
3) At least admit you know nothing, and don't have the work ethic required to learn, and appropriately conditionalize your posts with questions marks, or with statements like 'I guess' and then maybe I can ignore all the BS in them or at least correct you respectfully.

Any of those could work for me.

But if you continue to troll and talk nonsense, I will correct that when and how I see fit and with the appropriate level of disrespect that you earn.

[Canadian Visitor]

Show me somebody’s post outside of yours that mentioned Florida.

Gladly.

Note that Florida also has a benign winter climate where homeless people don't "freeze to death on the streets at night" but doesn't have the same degree of a homeless problem as California.

That's Oladub, post #229 and comes BEFORE any mention of Florida by me.

I mention it in response to him.

Nothing to do with you.

About that whole reading thing..................

[Zacha341]

UPDATE: The time in travel required organization....

How the Migrant Caravan Built Its Own Democracy

Trump called the caravan ‘lawless.’ But on the road to Tijuana, the migrants were electing officials, voting on routes and building a public safety council.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ernment-222856

[Richard]

Several other posters have found at least some of my posts useful or interesting.

That can't be said for you. Not a single person likes anything you post.

Not even equally obnoxious people, they can't stand you either.

If you don't want to be insulted you can choose from the following menu:

1) Don't post [[pretty please, pick this one)
2) Post only intelligent, thoughtful things, don't insult other posters, other countries, immigrants or anyone else. I will accord you the respect such posting would merit, as I already do for other posters.
3) At least admit you know nothing, and don't have the work ethic required to learn, and appropriately conditionalize your posts with questions marks, or with statements like 'I guess' and then maybe I can ignore all the BS in them or at least correct you respectfully.

Any of those could work for me.

But if you continue to troll and talk nonsense, I will correct that when and how I see fit and with the appropriate level of disrespect that you earn.

See this is a testament as to your confusion,this is a discussion forum,not Twitter or Facebook or any other social media where one tries to get likes in order to bolster their self worth.

People will agree with some and disagree with some,that is the whole point of a discussion,to see other points of view.

It is not a popularity contest and because somebody disagrees with somebody it does not meen they are hated.

I am not sure why you feel the need to regulate how and what people have to discuss.

It is not your place or job to,or are you a moderator to tell others how to handle themselves.

When you post you are fine with those who agree with you but when faced with those who do not agree with you then you come out attacking with name calling and cheap insults like a school yard bully.

Like I already posted,what you post is irrelevant because you have proven that you are not a person of your word and with your bullying tatics you continue to prove that the only thing your advanced education bought you was a piece of paper.

Maybe grow up a little and take a hard look in the mirror before you call others obnoxious.

I would rather be obnoxious then be pretentious like yourself.

[Richard]

UPDATE: The time in travel required organization....

How the Migrant Caravan Built Its Own Democracy

Trump called the caravan ‘lawless.’ But on the road to Tijuana, the migrants were electing officials, voting on routes and building a public safety council.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ernment-222856

Which questions why they could not do the same in their country?

[Canadian Visitor]

When you post you are fine with those who agree with you but when faced with those who do not agree with you then you come out attacking with name calling and cheap insults like a school yard bully.

I can name countless posters here with whom I have disagreements and who I never insult.

You are one of three who I ridicule, because you deserve it.

To be clear, I don't insult you because we disagree.

I insult you because you lie, because you constantly wander off subject and introduce irrelevancies, because your too lazy to read you own bloody links, which almost never prove what yous say, and because your rude.

I'm also fundamentally insulted to be compared with a school-yard bully and any school you would have ever gone too. My insults are, for the most part, far more entertaining, and substantial than anything you would have ever heard back in grade six or whenever you dropped out.

Your constant droning about how I'm a bully is really rich.

For someone who claims to be a military vet, you're a bit of a snowflake, just sayin.

Like I already posted,what you post is irrelevant because you have proven that you are not a person of your word

I am, in fact, a person of my word, and have never breached that here.

However, if I had, that would not affect the relevance of my posts one iota.

.......you continue to prove that the only thing your advanced education bought you was a piece of paper.

No, the fact that I insult you, as you deserve, does not have any bearing on my degree or broader education.

If you wish to impune my moral character, so be it. I'll gladly put mine up against yours any day.

But that's neither here nor there. Its simply unrelated to my education.

I would rather be obnoxious then be pretentious like yourself.

That's good, both because you are obnoxious and because you have nothing to be pretentious about.

[Richard]

^ you are actually bragging on a public forum about the quality of your insults AND proud to be pretentious?

You said you were blocking me in the forum,that would be a blatent lie.

The sad part of it all is the poor little children in school that had to starve so you could become a stellar educated adult.What a waste.

[Canadian Visitor]

..... AND proud to be pretentious?

That, would be a lie. Nowhere will you see any words to that effect in my post.

I only said YOU had nothing to be pretentious about.

You said you were blocking me in the forum,that would be a blatent lie.

No, as I've explained to you time and again in this forum, you are blocked. But when I [[ or anyone else ) is not logged in, your posts remain visible.

The admin here can confirm you are blocked by me. But that doesn't fix the fact I can see your posts. Sigh. Ah well.

The sad part of it all is the poor little children in school that had to starve so you could become a stellar educated adult.What a waste.

This is a lie, of course. Its also insulting, as per your norm. When you lie and insult and make stuff up, somehow that's not bullying in your mind.

But when I call you out as a liar, a bully, and a fool and actually support that with facts, that's bullying.

Whatever!

[Jimaz]

Note that this thread had laid fallow for seven days before #218 appeared and then suddenly there was a flurry of activity.

These are the traffic analysis conditions that lead a critical mind to question why #218 is such a sensitive topic and to whom it matters most.

[coracle]

#218 is based on some anti-American writer’s opinion dressed up and published as news and supported by the fake “catastrophe of climate change” [[AKA global warming; AKA The Coming Ice Age in the 70’s).

I thought the flurry of activity came following #219 which is backed up with a photograph of the event and is a genuine poster’s opinion and not the opinion of some fake media guy getting paid to manipulate public opinion.

Mind you, it makes for a lot easier reading than any of the shit in the flurry from CV. Hope he gets up later today![[or better still; stays in bed).

[canuck]

More good reading for you carbuncle, via the NY Times; an overview of the National Enquirer, a great institution for the masses, AKA the people of Walmart, AKA; the MAGA crowd.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/b...gtype=Homepage

[coracle]

Post #236 from CV with reference to Poster calling himself Richard.

“Several other posters have found at least some of my posts useful or interesting.
That can't be said for you. Not a single person likes anything you post.
Not even equally obnoxious people, they can't stand you either.”

I’m a single poster [[well actually I’m married - so please don’t insult my wife!); I’m also an obnoxious person [[though not in your class by any means) and enjoy reading what Richard posts far more than your condescending drivel; which you obviously think is clever because you spew out so much of it.

I don’t find your posts useful at all. I find them fucking annoying.

Richard has one particular endearing feature for me - HE PISSES YOU OFF. Sorry, two endearing features - I can read his postings without using expletives.

[Honky Tonk]

I don’t find your posts useful at all. I find them fucking annoying.

Whew! And I thought it was just me.

[Honky Tonk]

While I empathize with those Hondurans fleeing their country due to gang or political violence, THIS is the part I don't understand.

If your primary goal is to get away from violence, Costa Rica, Panama, Peru and Columbia are all MUCH closer than the US and are relatively stable for the region. To get to the US you have to pass through some pretty rough, gang-controlled territory in northern Mexico. Even southern and western Mexico are pretty decent.

The streets in the US are paved with gold, and everything here is pretty much free.

[oladub]

More good reading for you carbuncle, via the NY Times; an overview of the National Enquirer, a great institution for the masses, AKA the people of Walmart, AKA; the MAGA crowd.

canuck, That's an interesting take you have on the "masses"; you know, like people who go shopping at Walmart. You stereotype them as all reading the National Enquirer. That has the condescending flavor of calling working people "deplorables". Your NY Times link, an always impartial source, didn't specify Walmart shoppers. It mentioned Safeway and groceries in general across the nation; our nation not yours. I've seen a lot of presumably Mexican families shopping in rural Walmarts trying to stretch their dollars too. Are you suggesting that Hondurans who cross the border for American jobs and benefits won't do the same?