Marijuana Legalization in Canada and Michigan

[Towne Cluber]

After not reading this thread for awhile than catching up there is only one conclusion I can come to.

It’s like every right wing republican everywhere gets all pissed off if someone else besides them is even suggested to shoulder any of the tax load.

They will never get me on board. I am not interested in paying for everything a nation or state needs to have all by myself.

Spread the damn bills out to everyone who has the fucking money to pay them so I don’t have to pay so much. I wonder sometimes how something so simple to understand gets so hard for some.

Weed is a luxury item. Nobody has to have it. The war on pot is completely lost, every damn dime spent on fighting it has been a huge waste of money when it’s more common than ever now. Duh.

Why the insistence on maintaining its tax free status? Tax the crap out of it just like the rest of us.

That’s part of the problem. The illegal pot market has only grown because of the higher [[taxes) cost of the legal stuff.

[Towne Cluber]

^^Those two weren't killed because of marijuana, they were murdered over money. It just happened to be that the transactions involved marijuana.

Kudos to you for bringing a bit of a philosophical perspective to the matter!

In fact, the same could be said for any product or service because nothing is free. Likewise, people aren’t really killed over money [[because paper itself doesn’t have any value), rather one is killed because of what is printed on it and what it represents.

[Jimaz]

We're off the rails. LOL

Cognitive dissonance

[Zacha341]

Well, em, uh that's one way of looking at it!!------

^^Those two weren't killed because of marijuana, they were murdered over money. It just happened to be that the transactions involved marijuana.

[Zacha341]

Yep, that factor seems to have emerge. Let the games begin!

That’s part of the problem. The illegal pot market has only grown because of the higher [[taxes) cost of the legal stuff.

[Bong-Man]

It's 1920....a cold Saturday night, and my grandfather is 21 years old.....and you can't get a legal drink anywhere in the city or the country.

"alcohol is a luxury item. Nobody has to have it. The war on alcohol is completely lost, every damn dime spent on fighting it has been a huge waste of money when it’s more common than ever now. Duh."

Yet he would have to wait until he was 34 years old, another 12 years, to have a legal drink in this country.

Flash forward to 2018....
As a parent you now have basically 4 legal adult products that you are responsible for keeping away from your children. Alcohol, prescription drugs, fire-arms, and marijuana. Only one of those items can't kill you or them. Yet a majority of the people who voted no on this proposal have no problem giving someone the legal right to use the other 3, and currently have 2 if not all 3 of those products in their home.

Gun deaths per year - 32,000
Prescription drug deaths per year - 22,000
Alcohol deaths per year - 88,000
Marijuana deaths per year - 0

Marijuana arrests last year for simple possession in Michigan....22,000

Merry Christmas Michigan....Another Stupid War on morality is Over !

[ABetterDetroit]

That’s part of the problem. The illegal pot market has only grown because of the higher [[taxes) cost of the legal stuff.

What tax revenue???

Again your only proving my point with made up fictitious arguments that keep pressing for that the funds spent on this weed have their tax free status.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/article...revenue_wo.amp

[Towne Cluber]

What tax revenue???

Again your only proving my point with made up fictitious arguments that keep pressing for that the funds spent on this weed have their tax free status.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/article...revenue_wo.amp

See Colorado [[except when you don’t want to).

[Towne Cluber]

It's 1920....a cold Saturday night, and my grandfather is 21 years old.....and you can't get a legal drink anywhere in the city or the country.

"alcohol is a luxury item. Nobody has to have it. The war on alcohol is completely lost, every damn dime spent on fighting it has been a huge waste of money when it’s more common than ever now. Duh."

Yet he would have to wait until he was 34 years old, another 12 years, to have a legal drink in this country.

Flash forward to 2018....
As a parent you now have basically 4 legal adult products that you are responsible for keeping away from your children. Alcohol, prescription drugs, fire-arms, and marijuana. Only one of those items can't kill you or them. Yet a majority of the people who voted no on this proposal have no problem giving someone the legal right to use the other 3, and currently have 2 if not all 3 of those products in their home.

Gun deaths per year - 32,000
Prescription drug deaths per year - 22,000
Alcohol deaths per year - 88,000
Marijuana deaths per year - 0

Marijuana arrests last year for simple possession in Michigan....22,000

Merry Christmas Michigan....Another Stupid War on morality is Over !

Half of all fatal car accidents involve alcohol and drugs. Detroit is one of [[and two years ago was the leader) the most dangerous places for car accidents in the country.

[bust]

The illegal pot market has only grown because of the higher [[taxes) cost of the legal stuff.

You're saying the large volume of sales at the legal places is impacting the illegal dealers by making their sales go up?

I don't believe this for a second. Do you have any proof of that?

[Towne Cluber]

You're saying the large volume of sales at the legal places is impacting the illegal dealers by making their sales go up?

I don't believe this for a second. Do you have any proof of that?

Reports in Colorado [[not me) say that illegal sales in Colorado have increased due to the higher cost of legal sales. Colorado has also reported increased activity by drug cartels.

[Zacha341]

In a way it's almost useless to debate much further. It's going to take some time to see how this works out for Michigan, Detroit specifically, per our demographic, region, economics and other factors. We're not Colorado.

[Zacha341]

I wonder what the next one will be [[stupid war on morality)?

Anyway this is NOT solely about morality. There's the practical, social aspects and unexpected consequences as well. As have been discussed at length.

Merry Christmas Michigan....Another Stupid War on morality is Over !

[aj3647]

Another one...

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...ad-police-said

A direct consequence of the total prohibition of marijuana, which drives the industry underground exclusively into the realm of the criminal black market. Same stuff would happen during Prohibition too, people murdering each other in "alcohol deals gone bad" or in turf wars over who got to illegally sell booze in which geographic domains. Then Prohibition was repealed and all of a sudden you could buy beer without having to interact with a member of the criminal underworld.

Incidents like this will become far LESS likely to happen now that weed is legal and will be increasingly less likely once commercial sales ramp up.

[Jimaz]

FWIW, here's a map of Licensed Medical Marihuana Facilities.

[jcole]

The one up in Omer is really nice

FWIW, here's a map of Licensed Medical Marihuana Facilities.

[Towne Cluber]

A direct consequence of the total prohibition of marijuana, which drives the industry underground exclusively into the realm of the criminal black market. Same stuff would happen during Prohibition too, people murdering each other in "alcohol deals gone bad" or in turf wars over who got to illegally sell booze in which geographic domains. Then Prohibition was repealed and all of a sudden you could buy beer without having to interact with a member of the criminal underworld.

Incidents like this will become far LESS likely to happen now that weed is legal and will be increasingly less likely once commercial sales ramp up.

Perhaps, although it might be somewhat wishful thinking given that...

1) illegal drug cartel activity has increased in places like Colorado

2) drug dealers aren’t going to just give up their livelihood so easily and go away quietly—especially in places like Detroit, where a significant portion of the population has very limited job options

3) many users already have their less expensive [[illegal) supplier and might not so easily switch over to a more expensive option just because it’s a legal source. If one wasn’t worried about legality before, a change in the law probably isn’t going to affect them now. People tend to choose less expensive options.

4) Gambling is legal but some people still choose to do it illegally [[and even get killed over it).

[Zacha341]

.....^^^^..... Excellent points ALL TC.....^^^^....!

Especially factoring Detroit's social culture, economics etc. vs. other places.

[ABetterDetroit]

Seriously? Colorado? That Colorado? The economic juggernaut of the American states Colorado? The one that’s constantly in the top 3 in any economic growth comparison among states? Now we don’t want what they have going on? We still don’t like wealth and growth with a diversified economy?

Unbelievable. If we just sit around waiting for every state to fail that’s kicking the living shit out of us it will be a very long wait. Like everyone alive right now will be long dead kind of long. We haven’t learned a damn thing in Michigan over the last fifty years.

Oh yeah, Colorado has a extra 300 MILLION to fight all ILLEGAL drugs with because of legalizing the stupid weed that Michigan does not have.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...nkings/economy

[Towne Cluber]

Seriously? Colorado? That Colorado? The economic juggernaut of the American states Colorado? The one that’s constantly in the top 3 in any economic growth comparison among states? Now we don’t want what they have going on? We still don’t like wealth and growth with a diversified economy?

Unbelievable. If we just sit around waiting for every state to fail that’s kicking the living shit out of us it will be a very long wait. Like everyone alive right now will be long dead kind of long. We haven’t learned a damn thing in Michigan over the last fifty years.

Oh yeah, Colorado has a extra 300 MILLION to fight all ILLEGAL drugs with because of legalizing the stupid weed that Michigan does not have.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...nkings/economy

The Colorado that has also seen increased drug-related traffic fatalities. The last thing that Detroit [[already the most dangerous driving in America) needs.

I think some people need to be honest. They're willing to accept increased drug-related traffic accidents and fatalities...as long as it doesn't happen to them or their family/friends. Unbelievable indeed, until it happens to you!

[Canadian Visitor]

Perhaps, although it might be somewhat wishful thinking given that...

1) illegal drug cartel activity has increased in places like Colorado

2) drug dealers aren’t going to just give up their livelihood so easily and go away quietly—especially in places like Detroit, where a significant portion of the population has very limited job options

3) many users already have their less expensive [[illegal) supplier and might not so easily switch over to a more expensive option just because it’s a legal source. If one wasn’t worried about legality before, a change in the law probably isn’t going to affect them now. People tend to choose less expensive options.

4) Gambling is legal but some people still choose to do it illegally [[and even get killed over it).

You do realize alcohol was illegal at one point?

That when it was, you had Al Capone among a host of other figures involved in the illicit market for same.

Further than when alcohol was re-legalized not only did it reduce violence and unnecessary criminalization of otherwise law abiding people; it also neutered that aspect of the black market, nearly completely, over a few years.

Many of the big names in the booze business today were bootleggers or cartel types, whose businesses subsequently became publicly traded corporations.

No, legalization did not rid us of drunk driving.

But there are ways of substantially reducing that, as there are other forms of impaired driving. That's a choice about laws, penalties, driver education, and social license.

In the case of alcohol, reduce the legal limit to 0.05. Impound a car for 30 days on a first offence.

If the amount of alcohol is more than double the legal limit, the car is gone for 90 days, plus a five of $500 or 2% of annual income [[based on IRS filing), the greater of the two.

[[for a $50,000 earner, that would be a $1,000 fine)

2nd offence in under 5 years, and the penalty doubles.

3rd offense in 5 years, lifetime driving ban, lifetime car ownership ban.

Driver education should be mandatory to obtain a license.

Driver education should include 3 hours on the law on impaired driving and the consequences legal, professional and otherwise, as well as alternatives, and hosting obligations.

Same sorta thing can be done for any other kind of impairment.

That has no bearing on the decision to legalize responsible personal use, and sale/production for said purpose, to a legal, adult, purchaser.

[Towne Cluber]

You do realize alcohol was illegal at one point?

That when it was, you had Al Capone among a host of other figures involved in the illicit market for same.

Further than when alcohol was re-legalized not only did it reduce violence and unnecessary criminalization of otherwise law abiding people; it also neutered that aspect of the black market, nearly completely, over a few years.

Many of the big names in the booze business today were bootleggers or cartel types, whose businesses subsequently became publicly traded corporations.

No, legalization did not rid us of drunk driving.

But there are ways of substantially reducing that, as there are other forms of impaired driving. That's a choice about laws, penalties, driver education, and social license.

In the case of alcohol, reduce the legal limit to 0.05. Impound a car for 30 days on a first offence.

If the amount of alcohol is more than double the legal limit, the car is gone for 90 days, plus a five of $500 or 2% of annual income [[based on IRS filing), the greater of the two.

[[for a $50,000 earner, that would be a $1,000 fine)

2nd offence in under 5 years, and the penalty doubles.

3rd offense in 5 years, lifetime driving ban, lifetime car ownership ban.

Driver education should be mandatory to obtain a license.

Driver education should include 3 hours on the law on impaired driving and the consequences legal, professional and otherwise, as well as alternatives, and hosting obligations.

Same sorta thing can be done for any other kind of impairment.

That has no bearing on the decision to legalize responsible personal use, and sale/production for said purpose, to a legal, adult, purchaser.

Likewise, do you realize that Detroit has very different populations and problems than those in Canada or Colorado?

Do you also realize that marijuana impairment can last for 24 hours, even though a person might only '"feel high" for 2-3 hours? That creates some very different issues that are even more problematic than alcohol intoxication.

[Worldsgreatest]

What the hell does Detroit's population and problems have to do with weed legalizing? You realize it was already decriminalized in Detroit a long ass time ago right? This was a slam dunk victory, a great thing Michigan has done that will without question benefit the state and stop a massive waste of resources. Everyone else can keep crying Michigan stays winning.

[Towne Cluber]

What the hell does Detroit's population and problems have to do with weed legalizing? You realize it was already decriminalized in Detroit a long ass time ago right? This was a slam dunk victory, a great thing Michigan has done that will without question benefit the state and stop a massive waste of resources. Everyone else can keep crying Michigan stays winning.

Detroiters not being able to pass drug test for jobs—particularly recent, current, and upcoming construction jobs.

Record high Detroit auto insurance rates as a direct result of being the car accident capital of America.

Detroit drug crime already being rampant. [[Again, illegal drug activity has increased with legalization)

[Canadian Visitor]

Detroiters not being able to pass drug test for jobs—particularly recent, current, and upcoming construction jobs.

Let's get this straight, you think that a whole bunch of construction workers, who weren't previously consuming pot, will, not that its legal, suddenly go get stoned and get fired as a result when a work place blood test shows impairment?

Is there any evidence to support such a supposition?

I hasten to add, that while I favour drug tests for selected professionals who are in charge of the care of others [[pilots, bus drivers etc.) as well as those who may otherwise have high-risk occupations, I think the US employers have far too much latitude to test without cause, and that merits legal restriction. Its intrusive and none of your employer's business, UNLESS, there is a demonstrable safety issue.

That said, I just don't by that those who were uninterested in pot in October are going to take it up on mass, in jobs where they are tested.

Record high Detroit auto insurance rates as a direct result of being the car accident capital of America.

Hmm, is this so?

The research seems to suggest otherwise.

When Crane's looked into the cost of medical insurance in Michigan, it found "The biggest driver is that Michigan has an unlimited medical benefit for injured drivers"

In other words, failure to employ some kind of cost containment in the legislation governing insurance in Michigan. Most jurisdictions have some kind of limits, both for minor injury and for pain/suffering [[not normally for hospital based care).

This is completely unrelated to how much impairment Michigan driver's have. Let's not conflate issues.

Detroit drug crime already being rampant. [[Again, illegal drug activity has increased with legalization)

Again, I don't think evidence supports that this will be the case over time. Even in Colorodo, the black market is partially sustained by the Federal laws around pot as well. Once legalization is complete, and established, I would expect the black market for pot to go the way of booze.