Shoo! that is close.. The SMART Bus Millage results

[Danny]

From the 2018 SMART Bus Millage....
Seventy-seven percent of Oakland County voted YES.
Seventy-Two percent of Wayne County voted YES.
However a close call for the residents of Macomb County voted YES by a few votes. a 50/50 margin.

What's going on? The people of Macomb County is a regional division between South Macomb with their Detroit-esque bedroom neighborhoods and North Macomb with the super developed McMansions past 20 Mile Rd. M-59 [[as known as the new E. 8 Mile Rd.) Folks from all over Macomb County cities have to pay a few dollars and cents for regional services. Even through those cities do get regional services like SMART bus system.

I was wonder what will happen if the 2021 SMART bus Millage didn't pass in Macomb? It will be a regional disaster!!! [[a one county economic depression.

Your thoughts?

[Scottathew]

We need to expand transit, fund it more, and bring SMART, DDOT, M1-Rail, and the People Mover all under the control of a single regional authority.

Also, they need to only charge the millage to the communities that get service, otherwise it will be an uphill battle for a regional authority as rural parts of Oakland and Macomb rightfully balk at the proposal. Also, within the urban and suburban communities there should be NO OPT-OUTS.

[ABetterDetroit]

We need to expand transit, fund it more, and bring SMART, DDOT, M1-Rail, and the People Mover all under the control of a single regional authority.

Also, they need to only charge the millage to the communities that get service, otherwise it will be an uphill battle for a regional authority as rural parts of Oakland and Macomb rightfully balk at the proposal. Also, within the urban and suburban communities there should be NO OPT-OUTS.

Or we could stop pretending it’s still the 1950s around here and Quit trying to jam Mass Transit down the throat of employers and homeowners in a fucked up real estate use/market with failure after failure and just institute a sales tax to fund it just like every other successful large metropolitan area transit plan in the rest of America.

Of course the downside to that idea is people might go for it and we could actually have it then all the bitching and complaining wouldn’t have their favorite communities to blame for not having it.

Nevermind. Just hang it on the property tax and sprawl on faster and farther Metro Detroit out over the ridiculous tax lines drawn on a map.
Surly another caring President will come along sooner or later and feel bad for what we have done to ourselves and give us more money again to tear down even more houses after we are done throwing another hundred thousand of our citizens out of their homes for unpaid taxes. Maybe that future President will replenish our bankrupt cities too!

[bust]

There are lots of ways.

In case anyone is interested here are the variety of ways New York's Metropolitan Transit Authority accumulates its $15.3 Billion budget:

http://interactive.nydailynews.com/project/mta-funding/

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Or we could stop pretending it’s still the 1950s around here and Quit trying to jam Mass Transit down the throat of employers and homeowners in a fucked up real estate use/market with failure after failure and just institute a sales tax to fund it just like every other successful large metropolitan area transit plan in the rest of America.

Of course the downside to that idea is people might go for it and we could actually have it then all the bitching and complaining wouldn’t have their favorite communities to blame for not having it.

Nevermind. Just hang it on the property tax and sprawl on faster and farther Metro Detroit out over the ridiculous tax lines drawn on a map.
Surly another caring President will come along sooner or later and feel bad for what we have done to ourselves and give us more money again to tear down even more houses after we are done throwing another hundred thousand of our citizens out of their homes for unpaid taxes. Maybe that future President will replenish our bankrupt cities too!

I wouldn't count on it, especially your last sentence.....

[Danny]

With Gilberttown Detroit developing. The Suburbs will have ride along, too. Look as Royal Oak, its no longer a "Royal Joke!" their downtown will look like mini Seattle and no parking spaces and open lots in site.

Ride along Macomb County don't get stuck by keeping up the Jones or the living like the Cleaver family from old tv sit-com
"Leave it to Beaver".

It's a pity that folks in Macomb County have to rely on the old "Christmas Lighting-direct current" urban district agreements. It's by the majority of the city will either keep or opt out certain services. So like City of Warren wants to opt out SMART busses in their streets, they can not because the all the cities and townships in Macomb County voted to keep the SMART busses going.

Folks on all tri-county areas had to vote on the SMART Bus Millage every four years. For its the final life line for state, county, city and federal funding. They don't just make money by putting your $2.00 of your bus fare into the fare box. They get money other source to cover fuel, maintenance and hopefully new busses. Without this millage, let regional transit die! along with thousands of its thousands of jobs. It's a scare tactic, but people must vote for leadership and services or forget it.

This is a democracy. Or you all rather want dictatorship.

[JonWylie]

What really needs to happen is we need to support which ever state candidates that will run on the platform of changing the Michigan Constitution to allow cities to enact higher sales tax. A 1-2% sales tax would allow Detroit to fund public transit the same as many cities around the country while affectively capturing money from visitors.

[dtowncitylover]

This ain't over...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...ace/937142002/

Seeing on Facebook the Yes "campagin" and TRU all calling victory and really downplaying the Macomb vote was quite astonishing. Sorry, but no. This is quite serious and it's ridiculous some NIMBY/Frank Rizzo named Leon Drolet had this much power to spread misinformation and lies about the needs of SMART. The guy doesn't like taxes. After SMART, he'll move onto some other government agency and try and dismantle that.

I completely blame Hackel for this one. He "supports" SMART, but did nothing to counter anything Drolet said. He is not vocal about it. He shrugged his shoulders, said vote yes, and moved on. When he should've been on TV, alongside Megan Owens, and making sure Macomb voters knew what that question meant. Way to go Hack!

What we do need is a sales tax and it would be nice for the legislature, if possible, to pass a bill to allow for sales taxes for transportation authorities. If it needs to be a vote of the people, not sure how that can happen. I would imagine the entire state needs to vote for any changes to the state constitution so how can we guarantee it passing both here and outstate? Then the only caveat would be that the sales tax can only be used to pay for regional transportation systems.

[Bham1982]

What really needs to happen is we need to support which ever state candidates that will run on the platform of changing the Michigan Constitution to allow cities to enact higher sales tax. A 1-2% sales tax would allow Detroit to fund public transit the same as many cities around the country while affectively capturing money from visitors.

If the city of Detroit wants to do that, fine. But the suburbs won't vote for that. Sales taxes are regressive, harm everyone, not just homeowners as with property taxes, and transit is probably not in the Top 200 issues facing the region.

[dtowncitylover]

and transit is probably not in the Top 200 issues facing the region.

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Top 3:
-Education
-Crime
-Transit

[dtowncitylover]

If the city of Detroit wants to do that, fine. But the suburbs won't vote for that. Sales taxes are regressive, harm everyone, not just homeowners as with property taxes

And no, this is what I see often on Freep comments or among family and friends. They don't want property but can deal with sales because then EVERYONE will be paying and they understand we have a low sales tax. .5% sales tax for the quad-counties? Yes please! [[Even though most everyone pays property taxes via home ownership or rent costs but the claim we pay too much property tax is a real complaint).

[professorscott]

However a close call for the residents of Macomb County voted YES by a few votes. a 50/50 marjin.

What's going on?

In Oakland and Wayne Counties, the exurban communities that have opted out of SMART didn't get to vote on the proposal, so the only voters were in communities where SMART service is visible. By contrast, the growing communities in north Macomb had the opportunity to vote, and many of them never see a bus.

If I was advising SMART, I would say before the next time up you have to have much more visibility in north Macomb. The service they provide in Armada and Richmond is simply invisible to nearly everybody, so you won't get a lot of support from those communities.

Some systems run once-weekly service to remote parts of a region. Perhaps SMART could divide north Macomb into segments, and run shuttles once a week in each segment [[say, once per hour) to connect people to the main routes like those on Van Dyke and Gratiot. Obviously those would not serve commuters, but if you think about retired people who might be able to arrange to do their shopping and medical trips on a, let's say, Tuesday, it might provide a service for them.

More importantly, people in the northern communities would see a bus go by every now and then.

[JonWylie]

If the city of Detroit wants to do that, fine. But the suburbs won't vote for that. Sales taxes are regressive, harm everyone, not just homeowners as with property taxes, and transit is probably not in the Top 200 issues facing the region.

I would love to see that list

[Bham1982]

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Top 3:
-Education
-Crime
-Transit

No, these are Top 3 issues on DYes. The vast majority of people in Metro Detroit don't give two shits about buses. And crime is a highly localized issue alien to most.

Most non-hood locations in the region have good schools, low crime and easy mobility. People worry about property values, taxes, clean air, their kids and grandkids future, etc.

[dtowncitylover]

No, these are Top 3 issues on DYes. The vast majority of people in Metro Detroit don't give two shits about buses. And crime is a highly localized issue alien to most.

Most non-hood locations in the region have good schools, low crime and easy mobility. People worry about property values, taxes, clean air, their kids and grandkids future, etc.

"Their kids and grandkids future" is so vague it matters little.

I would love to hear someone from Canton or Birmingham or Rochester or Clinton Township talk about how "bad" their air quality is. That might be a concern for someone at 94 and E. Grand Blvd, but just like you said, it's localized.

I would say most of the region has transit on their mind now. Whether they approve or disapprove of it. The issue is a major concern as it ties in with taxes, clean air, and whether or not we want to continue a brain drain, i.e. "the kids and grandkids future".

And sorry, because DPS is the largest public school system in the region, I would guess everyone wants to see it succeed. We know whatever Detroit is going through, matters greatly to the rest of the region. So that means educating future Detroiters, making sure the city is a safe place to live, work, and play, and investing in mobility so we can have more choices in transportation.

It would seem with the Macomb vote, many give "two shits" about buses.

[mwilbert]

No, these are Top 3 issues on DYes. The vast majority of people in Metro Detroit don't give two shits about buses. And crime is a highly localized issue alien to most.

Most non-hood locations in the region have good schools, low crime and easy mobility. People worry about property values, taxes, clean air, their kids and grandkids future, etc.

They mostly don't have good schools. There are a few very good public high schools, and then the quality falls off a cliff. Most of the school systems in metro Detroit are at best mediocre, although I'm not sure the parents realize it, so I might agree with you that it isn't a top issue. I also don't agree with you about transit; I agree that the majority of people in the area don't care about it, but there is a substantial minority who do, and it's a huge problem for the people for whom its a problem.

[Bham1982]

They mostly don't have good schools. There are a few very good public high schools, and then the quality falls off a cliff. Most of the school systems in metro Detroit are at best mediocre, although I'm not sure the parents realize it, so I might agree with you that it isn't a top issue. I also don't agree with you about transit; I agree that the majority of people in the area don't care about it, but there is a substantial minority who do, and it's a huge problem for the people for whom its a problem.

I think regional mobility for the region's poor is a significant issue, but this is very different than the regional discourse around public transit. There's lots of [[very niche) interest in QLine, commuter rail, etc. and very little interest in mobility solutions for the poorest, whether stronger D-Dot, subsidized carpool/rideshare.

Put crudely, some people care a lot about shiny new toys for [[white, affluent) visitors and suburbanites that have symbolic weight but little practicality, and few care about the fact that 30% of Detroiters [[overwhelmingly poor and AA) have no vehicle and shit D-Dot.

[professorscott]

I think regional mobility for the region's poor is a significant issue, but this is very different than the regional discourse around public transit. There's lots of [[very niche) interest in QLine, commuter rail, etc. and very little interest in mobility solutions for the poorest, whether stronger D-Dot, subsidized carpool/rideshare.

Put crudely, some people care a lot about shiny new toys for [[white, affluent) visitors and suburbanites that have symbolic weight but little practicality, and few care about the fact that 30% of Detroiters [[overwhelmingly poor and AA) have no vehicle and shit D-Dot.

I take exception with two of your points. First of all, the RTA plan was almost entirely about better bus service around the region, as is the SMART "FAST" service. There's only one potential commuter rail line even being discussed, and no "etc." Second, DDOT has made very significant improvements in the last couple of years and is planning more. In about 2008 I would have agreed with your characterization of DDOT as "shit", but not any more. Certainly the buses could run more often, etc., but that is a budgetary problem, and given the population and area of Detroit, the bus system is now running reasonably well.

[Jason]

I agree that this isn't a victory at all, this is extremely alarming. We just got within around 20 votes of our transit system being crippled.

Obviously Macomb County itself wouldn't be served, but that would have cascading effects across the entire system, because so much of the ridership is crosstown between Macomb and Oakland County. I think right now places like Bloomfield opt in for the common good and civicmindedness, but would they feel the same towards a hollow facade version of SMART?

The Grosse Pointes routes would be reduced to an isolated circulator that would barely go anywhere. Why wouldn't they then opt out? What fills that funding gap? The rest of Wayne County would seemingly be unaffected but honestly they don't have super great service to begin with.

Overall SMART would be reduced to Woodward and a few circulators and feeders in Oakland County, and a few routes in Wayne County. The best case scenario is that the recount confirms the millage. And if that happens SMART needs to spend the next 4 years in emergency mode, figuring out how to make sure this doesn't happen again.


Then there's the economy of Macomb County. Thousands of people who depend on the bus to get to work would instantly lose their jobs. At the same time, all of the businesses that employed these people would all, at the same time, have to hire replacements. Then there are multiple smaller groups that it would affect, students that would need to drop out of school, seniors and the disabled who need the bus to get anywhere, one car households who use the bus to responsibly save money. It would be a shock to Macomb County to lose the buses, and once it adjusted to the shock, it would be worse off. All of this to save 1 mill worth of property taxes.


I think it's more clear than ever that the places that do want transit need to step up and pay for it themselves, in order to create a system that places like Macomb County would see value in and want to be a part of.

Some systems run once-weekly service to remote parts of a region. Perhaps SMART could divide north Macomb into segments, and run shuttles once a week in each segment [[say, once per hour) to connect people to the main routes like those on Van Dyke and Gratiot. Obviously those would not serve commuters, but if you think about retired people who might be able to arrange to do their shopping and medical trips on a, let's say, Tuesday, it might provide a service for them.

More importantly, people in the northern communities would see a bus go by every now and then.

SMART already has something like this. If you live more than 1/3rd of a mile from a fixed bus route [[or if you're a senior or disabled), you can schedule a shuttle to pick you up at your house and take you to your destination during the weekdays. It's obviously cumbersome but it's available. https://www.smartbus.org/Services/Connector

[masterblaster]

No, these are Top 3 issues on DYes. The vast majority of people in Metro Detroit don't give two shits about buses. And crime is a highly localized issue alien to most.

Most non-hood locations in the region have good schools, low crime and easy mobility. People worry about property values, taxes, clean air, their kids and grandkids future, etc.

You're reaching - clean air; the grandkids?

Safety is ALWAYS the number 1 issue for just about everybody

Education is always a priority because people want to ensure their children have a bright future.

You are right about taxes.

I would think ROADS and POLLUTED WATERWAYS of the Clinton River and Lake St. Clair would be something they would care about.

[UrbanViews]

Does anyone know of any good statistics that shows correlation between who owns a home and who actually rides forms of public transit?
In my experience, it seems like people who rent are more likely to take public transportation, and people who own are more likely to own a vehicle. Maybe a capture of sales tax is the best way to allocate funds for transit to ensure everyone actually pays. Or have the city/region not be involved in transportation and let private companies fund their own transit and let the market do the rest.

[EGrant]

In theory, homeowners pass down the property tax to renters via the rent.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Does anyone know of any good statistics that shows correlation between who owns a home and who actually rides forms of public transit?
In my experience, it seems like people who rent are more likely to take public transportation, and people who own are more likely to own a vehicle. Maybe a capture of sales tax is the best way to allocate funds for transit to ensure everyone actually pays. Or have the city/region not be involved in transportation and let private companies fund their own transit and let the market do the rest.

I fail to see any direct correlation between renters and home owners that have their own vehicles. I know renters that have their own cars and home owners that don't. This is ill-relevant.

[Jason]

Or have the city/region not be involved in transportation and let private companies fund their own transit and let the market do the rest.

There isn't a private alternative available in the US. SMART is a reorganized version of SEMTA. Back in the day, the metro area was covered by a variety of private transit companies which each served different geographic markets in metro Detroit. But as the suburbs and car use grew, transit ridership fell to unprofitable levels. SEMTA was formed to buy the failing transit companies and merge them into a regional public transit service. Amtrack is the same story except at the national passenger rail level.

As far as I know, the bus companies were straightforward businesses, they ran routes and fares were higher than operation costs, so they were profitable. The streetcar companies were different though and imo their business model is insightful. The streetcar companies were parts of larger, synergistic business ventures, mostly relating to real estate. The companies would buy large amounts of land on the fringe of town for cheap, would build the streetcar, and then either sell the land at a profit to developers, or develop the land themselves. It was also common for them to build amusement parks, with Electric Park and many others throughout Detroit being examples.

Japan still has a lot of private transit companies, and as time goes on it's becoming more privatized rather than less. You can read an interesting blog post and discussion about it here. It's similar to the old American model but the government does provide various forms of assistance and regulation. The important point though is that they're profitable.

The Q-Line is an interesting comparison. It was built with private money and government subsidy and is being operated privately. The investors built it with the idea that it would increase the value of their real estate, and improve the operation of their businesses. Googling quickly, Gilbert contributed $15 million to the Q-Line. One Detroit Center ALONE is worth $195 million. If the Q-Line raises the value of ODC by 7%, that will make it a profitable investment. Combine that with all of his other properties and he's going to make a killing off the Q-Line. The difference between here and Japan though is the Q-Line can't get the ridership to have fares cover operation costs.

In general, private transit companies can be profitable when they're able to internalize positive externalities [["value capture"), and when ridership is high. Profitable private transit isn't possible in Detroit, but learning from other models could make publicly owned transit financially possible. [[note that this only applies to quality metro/rail lines and not buses or probably even light rail)

- A TIF along a transit route could generate a lot of money. A TIF is where the property tax revenues from a certain area are locked, and any additional property tax revenue is used to pay off bonds for a project. Since transit increases property values, a TIF would allow transit to partially pay for itself.

- Part of the capital costs could include real estate development, with revenues from the developments subsidizing operating costs. This could range from something small, like building convenience store spaces into the stations, to something big, like building apartment or office towers above stations. It might also be possible for the Detroit Land Bank to transfer properties to the transit agency, which the transit agency could then make money off.


This isn't relevant to the issue of funding the SMART buses, but I think if quality transit was established elsewhere in the region, residents of Macomb County would experience it and value it and would want to be a part of it. The pro transit parts of our region need to do the dirty work themselves and get something going, because the RTA is not happening and now even SMART is at risk of dropping dead every 4 years.

[ABetterDetroit]

There are lots of ways.

In case anyone is interested here are the variety of ways New York's Metropolitan Transit Authority accumulates its $15.3 Billion budget:

http://interactive.nydailynews.com/project/mta-funding/

Thank you for the clarification that their are many tax vehicles implemented for public transport funding. I stand guilty of over simplifying the issue in frustration with the mentality that the only way we can ever get the ball rolling on this issue is by raising the necessary funds through a single tax vehicle that has historically been detrimental to Detroit and it’s citizens.