Residents don't want restaurant at Corktown fire station

[Towne Cluber]

I'm repeating it to you, Cluber, do you or do you not live in Detroit? Someone posted you didn't, I'm curious. What's the problem here?

Pathetic. I’ve repeatedly said that I live in Detroit and you’ve repeatedly asked the question and said that I didn’t...

[Meddle]

Maybe they could put a self-serve pop store there. You know set cases of different flavors on the floor and let people mix/match whatever they want into a case. No frills place, bare floors and walls.

[Towne Cluber]

Maybe they could put a self-serve pop store there. You know set cases of different flavors on the floor and let people mix/match whatever they want into a case. No frills place, bare floors and walls.

For the win!

[Richard]

Maybe they could put a self-serve pop store there. You know set cases of different flavors on the floor and let people mix/match whatever they want into a case. No frills place, bare floors and walls.

lol When I first got my driving license I bought a 1966 Ford Econoline van with no windows,my hopes were to make it into a ultimate shag machine,which was the fad at the time,2 days later a guy offered me a job.

He was renting the closed down service stations and had like 15 Pick-A-Pop locations and my after school job was to keep them stocked,so much for the shag mobile.

At 50c a pop you would have to sell 14,000 bottles just to heat the place,I wonder how many to pay the 2,000,000, first investment.

Maybe it would work as a front with slot machines or high stakes poker games in the back or a brothel,first pop is on the house.

[Honky Tonk]

Pathetic. I’ve repeatedly said that I live in Detroit and you’ve repeatedly asked the question and said that I didn’t...

I asked you 3 times, and you just replied. You're either stoned or just delusional. Maybe just pathetic.

[Towne Cluber]

I asked you 3 times, and you just replied. You're either stoned or just delusional. Maybe just pathetic.

Maybe you couldn’t hear me over “all the car doors slamming” or “drunk and puking people”?

[canuck]

Maybe you couldn’t hear me over “all the car doors slamming” or “drunk and puking people”?

Kinda makes you wish for a kinder gentler time like Prohibition, and all manner of inbred customs prevailed, eh?

[bust]

Kinda makes you wish for a kinder gentler time like Prohibition, and all manner of inbred customs prevailed, eh?

And when certain better-connected people could dictate who and what was allowed in their neighborhood.

Community engagement is a great thing. Obstinate NIMBYism is definitely not. That selfishness is self-defeating besides.

It's not my neighborhood, and not even my city any more. But I'll share some thoughts about this because I think it's important to the future of Detroit. I'll use some of my own experiences as an example.

I've lived in 11 neighborhoods since leaving Detroit. Only in two of them did I have fewer dining options within a short walking distance than anywhere in Corktown. Those two neighborhoods were too poor to attract enough investment at the time. Both have long since improved dramatically, and now not one of them offers fewer conveniences than Corktown does today.

It's a luxury to able to find everything you regularly need within a close walk from home. I've gotten used to it, and am now reluctant to live without it. But as it is so often revealed, many haven't caught on to that mentality yet in Detroit.

I know Corktown as some good options. As Detroit neighborhoods go, it's a great one. But good options in anything resembling density it does not currently have.

Some thoughts shared on this thread help explain why. Many still want their streets and sidewalks empty. The "squeaky wheels". And no wonder: it's hard to appreciate something you can't find, easier to be afraid of it.

Where I live today mixed in with the large number of residences there are more restaurants and stores of all types than is possible to count. Bakeries, bars, schools, day care, repair shops, and professional services too. And two upscale restaurants within two blocks provide [[heaven forbid) valet parking.

Here's what it means for the people who live here. It's not always easy to find free street parking. But there is a virtuous cycle of conveniences and people who want to live near them. There is a healthy tax base. There are local employment opportunities. And the shoppers, the restaurant goers, the valets, the employees, the locals walking on errands keep the neighborhood safe.

What's more important?

Some in Corktown seem to have imported a suburban mentality even to what was once one of the busiest mixed use neighborhoods in Detroit, practically downtown. How ridiculous that some "squeaky wheels" squeak that a nice restaurant would be too loud, in what was formerly a fire station set among several factories, next to an expressway, a few blocks from a an MLB park.

I don't suggest any proposal that comes to a neighborhood should pass without community input. Far from it. And I don't suggest it would be a good use of the firehouse to become a raucous nightclub. But it's clear the potential developers don't intend that. They're planning residences overhead after all.

I think the neighbors should be willing to negotiate something reasonable. And despite what some seem to think here, only government, not the local community has license to dictate what someone does with their property. Besides, an upscale restaurant and residences should improve the neighborhood, not have a negative effect. You might be surprised by the quantity and quality of people who'd be attracted by more amenities like that.

It's my opinion that the large population of Detroiters who cling to the suburban ideals of decades long past is Detroit's single biggest obstacle to progress and future success. And by Detroiters I include everyone in the metro area. 90% of the metro area is already built for them. Now here they want to bring it to part of the remaining 10%. Meanwhile 80% of the metro area needs more diversity [[in all forms) to make it more interesting. And many of the most curious and talented have for decades been leaving to find it elsewhere.

A few other thoughts that come to mind:

If you don't have a garage or a driveway does the city of Detroit owe you free street parking? Should the residents of other Detroit neighborhoods be subsidizing that? Do the people of Corktown believe they not only deserve subsidized free parking but that others should be prevented from using it too?

The situation gets even more absurd when you consider Corktown has about as much space dedicated to parking lots as it does to housing. Tell me if I'm wrong, but don't those lots bring only negatives to the neighborhood? They aren't even accessible to local residents or people who visit. I suggest some of the "squeaky wheels" may want to squeak to Dan Gilbert about that.

Can you can arrive at an agreement where the lots open to the public after 5:00pm, as space permits? Maybe then you can arrive at an agreement where restaurant valets must park customer cars there after 6:00pm. Or maybe you can talk to Dan Gilbert about doing more to encourage his employees to use mass transit instead of filling up your neighborhood with cars?

Or if parking is a problem, what would it take for you to consider giving up one or both of yours? Of course you'll probably want to look at ways you can encourage a walkable neighborhood with ample conveniences first.

And Honky, I'll preempt your inevitable accusation question. I was last in Corktown late last October. I'll be back in a few weeks. [[I'd say let's meet for a coffee, but nah.) And go ahead, unload on me whatever other way you want if it makes you feel better. A sarcastic image? But it probably won't.

[Honky Tonk]

And when certain better-connected people could dictate who and what was allowed in their neighborhood.

Community engagement is a great thing. Obstinate NIMBYism is definitely not. That selfishness is self-defeating besides.

It's not my neighborhood, and not even my city any more. But I'll share some thoughts about this because I think it's important to the future of Detroit. I'll use some of my own experiences as an example.

I've lived in 11 neighborhoods since leaving Detroit. Only in two of them did I have fewer dining options within a short walking distance than anywhere in Corktown. Those two neighborhoods were too poor to attract enough investment at the time. Both have long since improved dramatically, and now not one of them offers fewer conveniences than Corktown does today.

It's a luxury to able to find everything you regularly need within a close walk from home. I've gotten used to it, and am now reluctant to live without it. But as it is so often revealed, many haven't caught on to that mentality yet in Detroit.

I know Corktown as some good options. As Detroit neighborhoods go, it's a great one. But good options in anything resembling density it does not currently have.

Some thoughts shared on this thread help explain why. Many still want their streets and sidewalks empty. The "squeaky wheels". And no wonder: it's hard to appreciate something you can't find, easier to be afraid of it.

Where I live today mixed in with the large number of residences there are more restaurants and stores of all types than is possible to count. Bakeries, bars, schools, day care, repair shops, and professional services too. And two upscale restaurants within two blocks provide [[heaven forbid) valet parking.

Here's what it means for the people who live here. It's not always easy to find free street parking. But there is a virtuous cycle of conveniences and people who want to live near them. There is a healthy tax base. There are local employment opportunities. And the shoppers, the restaurant goers, the valets, the employees, the locals walking on errands keep the neighborhood safe.

What's more important?

Some in Corktown seem to have imported a suburban mentality even to what was once one of the busiest mixed use neighborhoods in Detroit, practically downtown. How ridiculous that some "squeaky wheels" squeak that a nice restaurant would be too loud, in what was formerly a fire station set among several factories, next to an expressway, a few blocks from a an MLB park.

I don't suggest any proposal that comes to a neighborhood should pass without community input. Far from it. And I don't suggest it would be a good use of the firehouse to become a raucous nightclub. But it's clear the potential developers don't intend that. They're planning residences overhead after all.

I think the neighbors should be willing to negotiate something reasonable. And despite what some seem to think here, only government, not the local community has license to dictate what someone does with their property. Besides, an upscale restaurant and residences should improve the neighborhood, not have a negative effect. You might be surprised by the quantity and quality of people who'd be attracted by more amenities like that.

It's my opinion that the large population of Detroiters who cling to the suburban ideals of decades long past is Detroit's single biggest obstacle to progress and future success. And by Detroiters I include everyone in the metro area. 90% of the metro area is already built for them. Now here they want to bring it to part of the remaining 10%. Meanwhile 80% of the metro area needs more diversity [[in all forms) to make it more interesting. And many of the most curious and talented have for decades been leaving to find it elsewhere.

A few other thoughts that come to mind:

If you don't have a garage or a driveway does the city of Detroit owe you free street parking? Should the residents of other Detroit neighborhoods be subsidizing that? Do the people of Corktown believe they not only deserve subsidized free parking but that others should be prevented from using it too?

The situation gets even more absurd when you consider Corktown has about as much space dedicated to parking lots as it does to housing. Tell me if I'm wrong, but don't those lots bring only negatives to the neighborhood? They aren't even accessible to local residents or people who visit. I suggest some of the "squeaky wheels" may want to squeak to Dan Gilbert about that.

Can you can arrive at an agreement where the lots open to the public after 5:00pm, as space permits? Maybe then you can arrive at an agreement where restaurant valets must park customer cars there after 6:00pm. Or maybe you can talk to Dan Gilbert about doing more to encourage his employees to use mass transit instead of filling up your neighborhood with cars?

Or if parking is a problem, what would it take for you to consider giving up one or both of yours? Of course you'll probably want to look at ways you can encourage a walkable neighborhood with ample conveniences first.

And Honky, I'll preempt your inevitable accusation question. I was last in Corktown late last October. I'll be back in a few weeks. [[I'd say let's meet for a coffee, but nah.) And go ahead, unload on me whatever other way you want if it makes you feel better. A sarcastic image? But it probably won't.

I don't know why you think I should "unload" on you, but I am going to leave you with some food for thought. Suppose, sight unseen, I happened to buy some property in your current, walkable, car-free neighborhood. Then myself, and the other investors, decided what that neighborhood needs is a fast, connecting 5 lane road, so people in the 'burbs can have fast, easy access to all the restaurants there, and we start taking out buildings, and running in concrete. What could be the problem? All the restaurants stand to make more money. It'll generate more tax revenue. Why the hell are a handful of ingrates on such a self-serving, NIMBY uproar? No reply is needed. I just want you to think about it. Try the Swiss mushroom burger @ Bobcat Bonnie's. I think its very good.

[canuck]

I don't know why you think I should "unload" on you, but I am going to leave you with some food for thought. Suppose, sight unseen, I happened to buy some property in your current, walkable, car-free neighborhood. Then myself, and the other investors, decided what that neighborhood needs is a fast, connecting 5 lane road, so people in the 'burbs can have fast, easy access to all the restaurants there, and we start taking out buildings, and running in concrete. What could be the problem? All the restaurants stand to make more money. It'll generate more tax revenue. Why the hell are a handful of ingrates on such a self-serving, NIMBY uproar? No reply is needed. I just want you to think about it. Try the Swiss mushroom burger @ Bobcat Bonnie's. I think its very good.

You're the best at making a mountain out of a molehill. Food for thought, indeed. Oh shut up you damned canucky. Lol

[bust]

Suppose, sight unseen, I happened to buy some property in your current, walkable, car-free neighborhood. Then myself, and the other investors, decided what that neighborhood needs is a fast, connecting 5 lane road, so people in the 'burbs can have fast, easy access to all the restaurants there, and we start taking out buildings, and running in concrete. What could be the problem? All the restaurants stand to make more money. It'll generate more tax revenue. Why the hell are a handful of ingrates on such a self-serving, NIMBY uproar? No reply is needed. I just want you to think about it.

Happy to reply to that.
It's been done, countless times over. Except it never seems to work best for the restaurants or the tax base. Detroit's a great example.
Robert Moses did it to parts of New York like the South Bronx, and tried to do it to Greenwich Village.
Greenwich Village presents a great example of community organizing to defeat a proposal.
Compare the results.
Good thing they're not opposed to restaurants.
The key is to advocate good ideas, not wrong ones.

[Honky Tonk]

Happy to reply to that.
It's been done, countless times over. Except it never seems to work best for the restaurants or the tax base. Detroit's a great example.
Robert Moses did it to parts of New York like the South Bronx, and tried to do it to Greenwich Village.
Greenwich Village presents a great example of community organizing to defeat a proposal.
Compare the results.
Good thing they're not opposed to restaurants.
The key is to advocate good ideas, not wrong ones.

SLOW CHILDREN Sigh, It really doesn't matter what you think, or what I think, and it sure as shit doesn't matter what the would be restaurateur thinks. It doesn't matter what happened in Greenwich Village, Indian Village, or with the Village People. What matters is what the people that actually live there, pay into the neighborhood and it's upkeep want, and they want a continued residential area. Everything else is just angry monkeys flinging poop. There are SO many already existing restaurants where one can "go into Detroit" and order gourmet fried balogna appetizers, why this obsession with opening another place where it's not wanted? Are peoples lives that damn boring?

[masterblaster]

Corktown is on the edge of downtown. It is a mixed use neighborhood. Since you are downtown you should expect a mixed environment. One of the great things about pre-1900's neighborhoods like Corktown is that you can walk along any street and come upon an interesting local cafe or store. Corktown should be like that! There are so many suburban neighborhoods in the city and suburbs where you can live that suburban lifestyle. Corktown should be distinguishable from those - we need these type of urban places around here, we have enough of the suburban.

1. There is precedent for mixed use residential/commercial buildings at the ENDS OF THE RESIDENTIAL BLOCKS in Corktown. In the middle of this residential area, are mixed use/commercial buildings at the corners of Bagley and Eighth, Labrosse and Brooklyn, and Leverette and Tenth Street.

2. The building used to be a firehouse, so fire engines made a ton of siren noise on this block for decades. The building is also next to a 5 story factory building that has been converted to lofts. The back of a car wash is along this block, as well as an overflow lot for an auto repair place [[maybe this could become a parking lot for the restaurant). This is not a sleepy residential block like Rosedale Park.

3. Parking can be established along Sixth Street and via valet. Loading can be accomplished at the entrance to the building along Sixth Street. Minimal interruption to residents' street parking along Bagley can be accomplished.

[swingline]

Other than the non conforming office use mentioned in the Detroit News article, does anybody know what the actual use permitted by right is for this property?

[Richard]

The problem with these types of properties is that the transition from public use to the private sector is not clearly defined.

Non conforming comes up because the original zoning was as a fire station,without actually changing the original zoning designations everything that comes after is non conforming and up to interpretation.

I think that before the transition to private use the city should provide some kind of template as to the potential future use.

IE:It really is a commercial building and should have received that designation from the start,as it is no matter what attempt are made to reuse the building is going to require another non conforming use process,which is a massive waste of taxpayer monies and time that could be used in a more productive way.

As it is anytime you want to change use it is a process with no guaranteed results,but one can look at past uses of the property and use that as a guide.

Not so much in this case,and many others that will come up in the future,because there really is no history to base it on.

Many have posted here what is looked at to determine potential future use,but in this case the zoning board did not,they only looked at individual needs,it should have been city needs while taking into to consideration the input of the residents.

But they completely removed the bigger picture out of it,it was thier job long ago to set a designated use of the property before it transitioned into private hands.

They did not do thier duty to the city back then and failed to do it again by completely denying the appeal process.

They could have easily issued a conditional use with restrictions,with both sides meeting in the middle.

That neighborhood should have a say,but it also needs to understand that they are part of the bigger picture that makes up a city,it is not an island or personal fiefdom.

The city already may have a system in place in order to transfer public property to the private sector and it just was not applied in this case or overlooked,but it needs to happen.

Even at that it was always commercial use property and should be treated as such,the only conditional use should be pertaining to the addition of the residential use,or mixed use.

[canuck]

I see what appears to be at least 7 parking lots in the area, though this image is a few years old. There is also a dirt area at #8 that could be parking. Valets or shuttles could handle the distance if that was an issue. Sixth St. isn't exactly a major thoroughfare so street parking could be possible.

The truck deliveries and dumpster are on the Sixth Street side too, so that shouldn't bother the Yuppies nearby.


Attachment 36217

So funny. I really like what you did there, Meddle.

I also get a kick out of the gas fumes and noise bit when this sits right across the street from a freeway.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

So funny. I really like what you did there, Meddle.

I also get a kick out of the gas fumes and noise bit when this sits right across the street from a freeway.

So funny. I’m pretty sure you’d welcome a zoning variance for a restaurant a few feet from your house.

[Johnnny5]

The city settled this issue a week ago, we should just let this thread die.

[canuck]

So funny. I’m pretty sure you’d welcome a zoning variance for a restaurant a few feet from your house.

...or a fire station...

[Honky Tonk]

So funny. I really like what you did there, Meddle.

I also get a kick out of the gas fumes and noise bit when this sits right across the street from a freeway.

The guy 400 miles away is giving opinions to the guy 200 miles away, backed by the guy 1300 miles away, for a neighborhood none have ever been to, while sitting on the internet all day. Makes one happy that that one actually has a life, no?

[canuck]

The guy 400 miles away is giving opinions to the guy 200 miles away, backed by the guy 1300 miles away, for a neighborhood none have ever been to. Makes one happy that they actually have a life.

Makes one happy that they actually have a life...

...or the sacrosanct right to Free Speech on a web forum...

[Richard]

The guy 400 miles away is giving opinions to the guy 200 miles away, backed by the guy 1300 miles away, for a neighborhood none have ever been to, while sitting on the internet all day. Makes one happy that that one actually has a life, no?

Or maybe some do not live in a bubble,the city is a part of the rest of the country,the stronger it is,the stronger the rest of the country is as a whole.

I think the bigger worry would be if nobody cared.

[Richard]

The city settled this issue a week ago, we should just let this thread die.

They really did not settle anything,just kicked the can down the road without addressing the issue.

Property values go up,it becomes more expensive to buy,highest and best use changes in order to make it feasable,zoning changes become necessary in order to maintain momentum.

Do not address it,then investors move on and then things stall,but the costs to run the city do not stall,the losses are made up in increases in taxes.

Ever see that happen before?

[canuck]

They really did not settle anything,just kicked the can down the road without addressing the issue.

Property values go up,it becomes more expensive to buy,highest and best use changes in order to make it feasable,zoning changes become necessary in order to maintain momentum.

Do not address it,then investors move on and then things stall,but the costs to run the city do not stall,the losses are made up in increases in taxes.

Ever see that happen before?

Yes, but on the positive aide, if the residents have their way, the nabe could gain another parking lot.

[Meddle]

for a neighborhood none have ever been to,

Really? I've been inside 8's Quarters. Have you?

Granted that was back when they were still in service, so it's been quite a while.