Residents don't want restaurant at Corktown fire station

[Richard]

I live over here. I don't want another restaurant on the block. Nobody that I've talked to that lives here wants that corner to become a restaurant. Honky Tonk pretty much said it all, no point in being redundant.

So what would you like to see there,other then apartments,or is it we got ford so we do not need anything else?

Progress is progress,sooner or later that corner will come to ahead and it may come come from a source when you will not have a say what happens there,that is the risk you are taking.

[detroitsgwenivere]

^^It worked just fine as a small office, I'm good with something like that.

Fords development is an entirely different monster, located in an area with infrastructure built for light industrial and logistics.

[Jason]

It's a nonresidential building being used for a nonresidential use.

The building isn't located "in" a residential block, it's located at the end of the block. On 6th Street which is mostly non-residential. There's a few houses, a large apartment building, an office building, a church, a school, a freeway, and an empty office midrise.

If someone doesn't want to live next to non-residential uses, then don't buy a house a few doors down from a non-residential building. I mean the building was literally a fire station. Yeah it hasn't been one in decades, but in the past fire trucks with sirens would be coming and going at all hours. The physical character of that area is not quiet single use residential. As it is right now Bagley also has a car shop which is seemingly just fine, while a small upscale restaurant isn't.

If someone doesn't want to live down the street from restaurants and bars, then don't move to a neighborhood which is a regional restaurant and bar destination. Choose to live in the University District instead [[just don't buy a house two doors down from Livernois and then get pissed that gasp there are businesses on Livernois).

When there's a small empty building a few doors down, realize that someday something is going to go into it. And it's going to make some noise, and people are going to park there. A mime school could go there and it would be dead silent but you'd still have a class's worth of cars parked there [[and even tiny mime cars take up space). Or if there's really no parking for any use at that building then ultimately the conclusion is obviously that the building needs to be demolished for a parking lot, right?

[detroitsgwenivere]

I call bullshit on the parking issues in the neighborhood.

Those are private lots rented out full time to Quicken employees. They've dominated all three of those lots for at least the last 5 years.

[Honky Tonk]

It's a nonresidential building being used for a nonresidential use.

The building isn't located "in" a residential block, it's located at the end of the block. On 6th Street which is mostly non-residential. There's a few houses, a large apartment building, an office building, a church, a school, a freeway, and an empty office midrise.

If someone doesn't want to live next to non-residential uses, then don't buy a house a few doors down from a non-residential building. I mean the building was literally a fire station. Yeah it hasn't been one in decades, but in the past fire trucks with sirens would be coming and going at all hours. The physical character of that area is not quiet single use residential. As it is right now Bagley also has a car shop which is seemingly just fine, while a small upscale restaurant isn't.

If someone doesn't want to live down the street from restaurants and bars, then don't move to a neighborhood which is a regional restaurant and bar destination. Choose to live in the University District instead [[just don't buy a house two doors down from Livernois and then get pissed that gasp there are businesses on Livernois).

When there's a small empty building a few doors down, realize that someday something is going to go into it. And it's going to make some noise, and people are going to park there. A mime school could go there and it would be dead silent but you'd still have a class's worth of cars parked there [[and even tiny mime cars take up space). Or if there's really no parking for any use at that building then ultimately the conclusion is obviously that the building needs to be demolished for a parking lot, right?

And don't forget all that shiny chrome on those fire engines, I'm sure more than one resident was temporarily blinded when they drove by.

[Meddle]

One thing we do have in Corktown, are a bunch of connected squeeky wheels with friends on various boards and such. If the neighbors really don't want it, it's probably not going to happen.

Sounds like Mikey D needs to start cleaning out some [[or all) of those various boards and such to get rid of they that play favorites. Worst thing in the world a community can do is let boards get corrupted in the way you describe.

[Richard]

^^It worked just fine as a small office, I'm good with something like that.

Fords development is an entirely different monster, located in an area with infrastructure built for light industrial and logistics.

You may be good with that,and I mean no disrespect,but the currant property owner needs to cover costs also and should also have some rights,he and his bank might not be good with that.

This instance is about a fire-station on the corner,but in the bigger picture,I would be willing to bet the headline will read,

Corktown residents upset about costs driving them out.

It is not a suburb where the retail is set off on itself,it is integrated into the neighborhoods as it has been for the last 200 years,in a city situation it will be tough to survive based on residential revenues only,increasing property taxes is the only option.

Ford is going to do their thing,prices are going to escalate rapidly and so will the taxes and the moving vans headed to the east side,which will be good for the east side,if you do not have that commercial aspect offsetting the base.

Then the ones on the east side will be the ones being forced out,so now you know where the shift will be because you are creating it.You as in the residents,so I am going to invest on the eastside because investing in Corktown is risky apparently.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that there would be no point in attempting to put a strip club in the firehouse,but those connections are creating short term solutions that will have long term negative impacts.

Or shooting yourself in the foot as they say.

Or my guess is there is somebody in that click that would love to get their hands on that property and the best way to do that would be to devalue it by creating a situation that makes the property pretty much worthless.

7800 sqft,that place has to be close to $3000 a month just to heat it in the winter month's.

The lofts that are 12' from this place,how do they get rid of their trash,do they put out 20 trash cans or do they have a dumpster?

On a note of irony 6th st lofts lists this on their web site.

Living it up in Corktown.



Corktown is one of Detroit's most notable neighborhoods. Walk or bike the cobblestoned streets to the recently redeveloped Old Tiger Stadium, trendy Restaurants, bars, microbrews, shops and galleries.

Just do not put any of those trendy restaurants in our back yard.

So on one hand you use the trendy restaurants as a marketing tool but then make sure that they do not exist.Sounds like smart growth to me.

[royce]

I side with the residents on this one. That's a very quiet section of Corktown, and I think it deserves to stay that way. As Detroitsgwenivere has stated, the parking lots are privately owned. One can't assume the owners of those lots are going to open them up to the patrons of the proposed restaurant. So, the only parking spaces available would be in front of residents' homes. Also, Michigan Avenue is only one block north of this location. There are many places along Michigan where a restaurant could go. In fact, there's the old City Cab building on Michigan that could be a good spot for a restaurant. There's an old garage just east of it and a lot that could be used for parking [[I think the body shop on Leverette owns the two properties, but they might be willing to sell). Now Michigan Avenue is where you look to open a restaurant, not at the corner of Bagley an Sixth Street. And Richard, with Ford's influence in the area, I'm sure the owner of the former firehouse/law firm building can find tenants who are willing to pay top dollar to live in the building as their residence.

[Chicago48]

Couldn't the restaurant BUILD a parking lot, lmaybe find land nearby to convert to pakcing, or build parking structure to accommodate parking?

[Meddle]

Couldn't the restaurant BUILD a parking lot, lmaybe find land nearby to convert to pakcing, or build parking structure to accommodate parking?

If you look at the images above, you'll see that isn't possible in this case. The only potential spot is what I tagged #8 and I have no idea who owns that or if it would be available.

But that parking issue here isn't really an issue. It's folks in the area that think they're too good to allow something 'like that' in their precious neighborhood, despite the fact that this is basically an inner city industrial area alongside a major surface street and freeway.

[Honky Tonk]

If you look at the images above, you'll see that isn't possible in this case. The only potential spot is what I tagged #8 and I have no idea who owns that or if it would be available.

But that parking issue here isn't really an issue. It's folks in the area that think they're too good to allow something 'like that' in their precious neighborhood, despite the fact that this is basically an inner city industrial area alongside a major surface street and freeway.

The folks in your area apparently are not, they'll let anything move in.

[Richard]

I side with the residents on this one. That's a very quiet section of Corktown, and I think it deserves to stay that way. As Detroitsgwenivere has stated, the parking lots are privately owned. One can't assume the owners of those lots are going to open them up to the patrons of the proposed restaurant. So, the only parking spaces available would be in front of residents' homes. Also, Michigan Avenue is only one block north of this location. There are many places along Michigan where a restaurant could go. In fact, there's the old City Cab building on Michigan that could be a good spot for a restaurant. There's an old garage just east of it and a lot that could be used for parking [[I think the body shop on Leverette owns the two properties, but they might be willing to sell). Now Michigan Avenue is where you look to open a restaurant, not at the corner of Bagley an Sixth Street. And Richard, with Ford's influence in the area, I'm sure the owner of the former firehouse/law firm building can find tenants who are willing to pay top dollar to live in the building as their residence.

The potential new owners already,as reported,said they were going to do valet parking with the existing lots,I would guess that they would not have said that if prior arrangements were not made,so we are assuming.

We can say that tenants would pay top dollar,but because we say it,does not make it happen,without running the numbers we cannot say anything outside of the 20% market rate rule.

As of now a quick search shows adverage rents of Corktown of $985,fourth place,with the university ereas at the highest rates.

6th st lofts commanded a premium because they were different and the first and use the historic charm of the warehouse,even at that the last sale lost $38,000.

So now take the firehouse and build it out for luxury apartments,the exterior retains the charm but the interior contains little charm like a loft would ,so why pay a premium.

Riverfront shows for $3500 a month high end,but also contains many amenities,along with the river views.

So what are you really offering that commands a premium,other then saying,it was a fire house.

The potential owner already owns a restaurant,so easy enough to look at thier track record,the whole thing about parking,dumpster,smells etc are non issues.

Detroitsgwenivre hit the nail on the head,it has nothing to do with the merits of the project and everything to do with the residents connections and personal influence within the city,which is saying that the past is still there,tainted.

I would think that the current owners as lawyers are pretty smart,just as some of the residents are also,if it was a valid as apartments,the money is there,but yet here we are.

You cannot go to the bank and borrow millions based on saying it will work because Ford bought a train station,based on speculation you have to prove the numbers will work.

They allowed conditional use as an office because they did not want the property to go derelict in order to protect the neighborhood values but yet tie the hands of the very same person that saved the building in the first place,it was okay to place risk useing somebody else's money and it is still the case.

I think the residents should have a say,but I also think the property owner should have some rights also.

They have basically said this is what we want but we are not willing to risk our money to see it happen,without compromise it is no longer a concerned community it is a community dictatorship based HOA without a legal standing,co sponsored by personal city connections and not based on the city as a whole.

I was under the impression that the city was on the higher ground when it came to what is best for everybody in the city as a whole,which is thier mission,apparently not,which is disappointing.

Oddly enough there are cities across the country that have restaurants intragated in neighborhoods and they do not seem to have problems or decreases in property values and even like in the case of the 6th st lofts,use them as a marketing tool in order to add value,so it is not really based on the merits as it should be.

[Wesley Mouch]

So nice to see debates about development. So long we lived with nobody who would much want to develop Corktown. Now the problem is too much development. Nice. In a few years, Detroit will be as restrictive as San Francisco and nearly nothing will get done as prices skyrocket. I never thought I'd see NIMBY here in my lifetime.

[birwood]

With the revitalization of the Corktown area, do the residents and new businesses really realize how short changed they are as far as fire protections goes. The closest fire companies to respond for any fire emergency in the Corktown Area are currently Engine 1, currently housed at old Engine 3 quarters at Park and Montcalm, and if there is an event going on at Comerica, The Fox, LCA, Ford Field etc,… and Good Luck with them getting thru traffic to arrive in a timely manor. Engine 27, and Ladder 8 are the next closest at Fort St and Summit but they also respond to the Southwest Detroit neighborhoods. Remember that Engine 8 at 6th & Bagley CLOSED. Engine 4 at 18th & Lafayette CLOSED, Ladder 12 at 10th & Lafayette CLOSED, Engine 10 and Ladder 4 at Vinewood and W. Grand Blvd CLOSED. The residents and business owners should approach the administration about re-opening a fire company or 2 for that are…better yet..ask your home owners insurance about Detroits ISO rating and if there is a need for better fire protection.

[Richard]

^ excellent point and the problem is not looking at the bigger picture,all of the city services are behind and have to play catch up,police,fire,infrastructure is all going to be pushed to the limit and has to be paid for,there is a good chance that 40% of the current population will be priced out in the next five years.

[Meddle]

The closest fire companies to respond for any fire emergency in the Corktown Area are currently Engine 1, currently housed at old Engine 3 quarters at Park and Montcalm, and if there is an event going on at Comerica, The Fox, LCA, Ford Field etc,… and Good Luck with them getting thru traffic to arrive in a timely manor. Engine 27, and Ladder 8 are the next closest at Fort St and Summit but they also respond to the Southwest Detroit neighborhoods. Remember that Engine 8 at 6th & Bagley CLOSED. Engine 4 at 18th & Lafayette CLOSED, Ladder 12 at 10th & Lafayette CLOSED, Engine 10 and Ladder 4 at Vinewood and W. Grand Blvd CLOSED. The residents and business owners should approach the administration about re-opening a fire company or 2 for that are…better yet..ask your home owners insurance about Detroits ISO rating and if there is a need for better fire protection.

That's what I asked upthread ... I couldn't remember who was first due with all the closings over the years. I'd need to plot out current houses, but I'd imagine response time for the Box would be much longer than most would be comfortable with. I can remember when all three engines for that area could be on scene and stretched within five minutes or so.

[gumby]

Those are private lots rented out full time to Quicken employees. They've dominated all three of those lots for at least the last 5 years.

A restaurant would most likely need those parking spots at dinner time when most of Gilbert's worker have vacated those lots. The restaurant could negotiate with the owners of those lots to remain open into the evening times.

[detroitsgwenivere]

^^Not if the current contract with Rock stipulates that access to these lots prohibits use by anyone other than those given access by Rock. I have no clue what the terms of their agreement are, but I can guarantee that if Rock is paying for the full time use of lots all the way out in New Center, paying a company which is not their own to shuttle said employees from the early morning hours until midnight, they can afford to price out anyone that attempts to butt in on their current monopoly at the Howard Lots.

I do remember the year that those lots went unused for several months because Quicken let go of all of their interns and several contract employees. I mean literally sat there empty with none other than a top flight security guard sitting in their car. This is one reason why I'm drawing this conclusion, but like I said, I don't really know.

Either way, parking is just one issue, there are like 10 other reasons why residents don't want a restaurant there. And "NIMBY" [[eye roll) didn't just start with this proposal Richard, this is the way it's always been here. I've lived in this neighborhood for several years, spent many an evening at residents meetings, zoning and planning commission meetings, Corktown Business assoc meetings, etc. I can tell by many of the posts on this thread so far that most don't have the faintest idea of what they are talking about in regards to this neighborhood. Or about the history of Corktown residents who fought the government for the very survival of the residential area, and won.

I have to crack up at you Meddle. A couple from out of state planted no less than 4 businesses, one that is a restaurant, in a single building right on the corner of Bagley and Trumbull, right across the street from another restaurant, with nothing less than love and support from about 95% of the surrounding neighbors. The reasons why? Because the development is on the commercial corridor meant for these types of businesses, and because they engaged the community with questions as to what the community actually wanted for the space.

Many of you consistently decry the lack of involvement and care given by us Detroiters to our surroundings. But as soon as the ones that do engage don't agree with whatever you think the outcomes should be, we are NIMBYs and "too good." You don't get to have it both ways, either people take possession of their community or they don't. We're the ones who have to deal with the outcome of the development, not you. If you think that restaurants should be able to open within a single residentially zoned area, then go ahead and open them in your own neighborhood, and see how that works out for you.

[Jason]

Sixth Avenue is not an exclusively residential street. Almost all of the street frontage is non-residential [[including this building). Literally right next to the fire station is a 5 story industrial building [[with a 4 story billboard on top).

I'm imagining the area that's expected to be impacted by the restaurant to be Bagley, down roughly to Brooklyn. It's true that the south side of the street is exclusively residential. But almost the entire north side of the street is the car shop and the lots associated with it, and the back of the car wash. About half of the street frontage of that part of Bagley is already non-residential.

So this restaurant should take one of the lots on Michigan and build a building for themselves there? If they bought the lot on the corner of Brooklyn and Michigan, this hypothetical restaurant would actually be closer to more houses than the fire station would be.

Looking at other parts of Corktown there's a similar situation. If you're at Brooklyn and Labrosse, you're a few doors down from an office building, a school, a restaurant, and an industrial building. If you're at Labrosse and 8th, you're a few doors down from a brewery/bar and two banks. Bagley and 8th you're a few doors down from a restaurant, grocery store, record store, and a few car shops. Going to the west, 10th street has non-residential uses as well. There's nowhere in Corktown where you're not close to non-residential uses. Corktown is a handful of blocks of residential that's sprinkled with non-residential, and wedged between a light industrial district and a major commercial road. If someone wants to live in a Detroit neighborhood that's purely residential, with a few interesting businesses within walking distance, neighborhoods like Indian Village or the University District are better choices.

And mind you this is all over a small upscale restaurant. This is going to be be less obtrusive than most of the other businesses there. All this means is that a few more cars will park on Bagley. Which shouldn't be unexpected. And the houses there can already have their own parking off the alley so they shouldn't even need the street parking themselves anyway.

[archfan]

...
I have to crack up at you Meddle. A couple from out of state planted no less than 4 businesses, one that is a restaurant, in a single building right on the corner of Bagley and Trumbull, right across the street from another restaurant, with nothing less than love and support from about 95% of the surrounding neighbors. The reason why? Because the development is on the commercial corridor meant for these types of businesses, and because they engaged the community with questions as to what the community actually wanted for the space.
...

It doesn't sound like this business followed the same path. I may be wrong, but it sounds like they were surprised so many people opposed their proposal. They might have gotten the same answer, but they wouldn't have burned so many bridges.

[Richard]

It doesn't sound like this business followed the same path. I may be wrong, but it sounds like they were surprised so many people opposed their proposal. They might have gotten the same answer, but they wouldn't have burned so many bridges.

That what the meetings were about,to address the residents concerns and try and find common ground.

Valet for the parking issue,scrubbers for the exhaust smells etc.

The dumpster is just a non issue because even as apartments it needs a dumpster.

You have a limited use building so options are few,the building next door with the billboard is 6th st lofts,which sat dormant many years and was purchased cheap back then it does command million dollar plus unit sales but it also had the space and at the time the numbers to make it work.

The proposal that was presented did include a mix of apartments with the business,over all that is close to a $4 million investment,the only feasible return is what was presented.

So the residents are stuck with a property that has little options,if they do not meet somebody half way in the future it will end up being a parking lot or another option that they will not be happy with but at that time they will have no say.

Pick your poison as they say, but to restrict the use of a building based on what you would like to see without even knowing the financials is sealing its fate because it has outlived its usefulness.

But maybe that is the tug a war,in order to make it feasible the purchase of the property needs to be cheap and what a better way then to squeeze the current owner then to use your city connections against the current owner and force them to dump the property.

Next will be visits from the different city departments finding things wrong with the building and the owner saying the costs to do what they want exceeds the value of the structure.

It probably would be feasible for all apartments if it was a 501c and subsdized by HUD to offset the losses.That would be the next step.

But then you have lost any returns to the city and community on the tax side.

[Meddle]

One other thing I noticed while reading about this building that I don't recall seeing in this thread is that it's on a historical register. Not sure how that affects use.

I don't really care if it's a cafe', apartment, law office or whatever. I do have a problem with fussy neighbors throwing their weight around.

I think if I was Mayor, I'd be half tempted to override the planning commission and approve the restaurant. Or an Adult Bookstore.

[Richard]

One other thing I noticed while reading about this building that I don't recall seeing in this thread is that it's on a historical register. Not sure how that affects use.

I don't really care if it's a cafe', apartment, law office or whatever. I do have a problem with fussy neighbors throwing their weight around.

I think if I was Mayor, I'd be half tempted to override the planning commission and approve the restaurant. Or an Adult Bookstore.

I can put a strip club in there,as a fire station it may still have the pole.

It could be themed where the girls could dress up in little fireman outfits,and have themed drinks.

[canuck]

I agree with Richard on this. I find this kind of nimbyism against a small, potentially pleasant business appalling. A small residential enclave in the midst of an old industrial neighborhood resistant to change for the better. Pretty insane.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Im sorry you feel that way Canuck. If it makes you feel any better, I'd be totally cool with an adult bookstore, a strip club, and a weed store opening in the neighborhood right next to each other, on MI Ave. Of course, I'd definitely be in the minority.

The ladies in the club would probably have to wear thick glasses and ironic looking G-Strings in order to be successful in that location though.