Will Detroit be left behind in 5G ?

[O3H]

5G uses high-frequency waves that support faster speeds
but don't travel as far as current wireless frequencies.
Instead of relying on large cellphone towers
it needs "small cell" sites that are much closer together.

The barrier to 5G is the availability of spectrum,
sufficient to assure that the broadband promise happens.

A significant portion of the spectrum must be dedicated to 5G,
in the millimeter-wave bands above 30GH,
including spectrum at 60GHz, up to 70-80GHz or even higher.

Availability is the domain of government regulations,
and with 50 states, actively operating as 50 laboratories
of democracy, it's anyone's guess how it all shakes out.

Comcast will no doubt cry bloody murder as their profits get impinged.
Will the City of Detroit have the groundwork; legislation/regulation in place ?

[Richard]

Chattanooga Tennessee has public broadband,1000 Mbps.

Comcast took them to court to block it but lost,29 States have made public internet access illegal.

[mwilbert]

5G uses high-frequency waves that support faster speeds
but don't travel as far as current wireless frequencies.
Instead of relying on large cellphone towers
it needs "small cell" sites that are much closer together.

The barrier to 5G is the availability of spectrum,
sufficient to assure that the broadband promise happens.

A significant portion of the spectrum must be dedicated to 5G,
in the millimeter-wave bands above 30GH,
including spectrum at 60GHz, up to 70-80GHz or even higher.

Availability is the domain of government regulations,
and with 50 states, actively operating as 50 laboratories
of democracy, it's anyone's guess how it all shakes out.

Comcast will no doubt cry bloody murder as their profits get impinged.
Will the City of Detroit have the groundwork; legislation/regulation in place ?

You are simply wrong about how 5G works. It is a multiband service. It is true that one way it works is with high-frequency small cells, but that is not the only way it works, and probably isn't going to be the main way it is deployed initially. In dense urban areas like Detroit, the expectation is that there will be small, high frequency cells [[although often at frequencies much lower than those you mentioned), but what will probably be deployed first is larger, lower-frequency cells which will use the existing towers, because it will take a while for demand to ramp up as people buy 5G compatible devices and pay for 5G service, and for the technology for the above 10GHz frequencies to be proven.

In particular, T-mobile has already said that it is going to start deploying 5G 600 Mhz infrastructure in Detroit. I don't know what else to tell you, but that's just the way it is.

And if you want small cells, Verizon and Sprint have deployed a bunch of small cell sites in Detroit already, mostly around downtown and midtown. Anyway, as I said earlier, we can wait and see what happens, but what I'm reasonably sure is going to happen is nothing unusual--Detroit will get 5G along with everyone else.

[O3H]

I beg to differ, vehemently. Detroit is NOT a densely populated area.
The City is still economically wiped out and infrastructure is lacking.
The poverty stricken folks won't buy new phones,
and those who want to buy a new fangled 5G phone will merely be on 4G LTE for a very very long time with minimal increased anything .
Detroit will not be on leading edge of a high tech SMART CITY for a long time

A quote often repeated about 5 G
""5G is a collective bargain between the telecommunications industry and society. ""

The main challenge to 5G is LOCAL government
https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/26/5g-wireless/

""Getting 5G wireless into the hands of consumers is likely to be stymied by opposition from local city councils and mayors around the issue of site access.""

From PC MAG June 12, 2018
AT&T and Verizon are going for much higher speeds over smaller areas; T-Mobile is looking to blanket the nation, but at slower speeds. While they're all going to call their new networks 5G, it'll be like they're coming from different worlds.

[Shai_Hulud]

^^^^ - Because it no longer uses those BIG TALL TOWERS --- thats why

5G uses a different wavelength, it relies on LOTS of smaller antenna

Nice to know you have lots of coin for Rocket Fiber ; Honkey Tonk
[[It's something like $70.00/mo for 1,000 Mbps)

Just want to point out that outside of promotional rates Comcast charges $50 for whatever their godawful lowest tier internet is if not bundled with anything else.

If it's possible to pay less for reliable service please let me know.

I think this is relevant to the larger discussion because the price floor is within spitting distance of the price ceiling and many people will, understandably, opt for better service, even in a less than affluent area like Detroit.

[archfan]

I beg to differ, vehemently. Detroit is NOT a densely populated area.
...

You're right, which is why they'll be able to convert existing towers to 5G. Downtown/Midtown/New Center will need the high frequency small cells for denser areas [[people, phones and buildings), but the neighborhoods generally won't.

[O3H]

In a perfect world, we would all be on Fiber, which limits mobility.
People understand the internet runs on fiber cable under the oceans.
Basically 5G wants to take that fiber ability and move it to the airwaves.

https://youtu.be/AAbVca0aKiQ

[O3H]

The real range of mmWave appears to be about 1/3 of a mile.
That's a whole lot of 5G femtocells , just to cover a small area.
Does Detroit have the infrastructure money $ to invest in those networks ?

[djtomt]

The real range of mmWave appears to be about 1/3 of a mile.
That's a whole lot of 5G femtocells , just to cover a small area.
Does Detroit have the infrastructure money $ to invest in those networks ?

Dude...you can't be serious. This is one of the biggest cell markets in the country as evidenced by the HUGE number of providers that are in this market.

You think these carriers are going to let small accounts pass them by? Think again - witness Metro PCS by T Mobile.

I'm not even counting burner phones or prepaids.

Telecom infrastructure is paid by the Telecom networks, not the city, county or state. When 5g is ready, every carrier will roll it out nationwide - and last I checked, Detroit is part of that.

Trolling is lame man. If you want people to listen, propose things based in reality.

[O3H]

People need to do their homework
Poorer communities will be losing out on 5G.
Cities negotiate with wireless firms for the privilege
of putting hardware in public rights of way.

“The [FCC] has embarked on an unprecedented federal intrusion
into local [[and state) government property rights
that will have substantial and continuing adverse
impacts on cities and their taxpayers.”
via the U.S. Conference of Mayors

The dispute comes down to the “small cell” equipment
required for much of 5G and who gets to say where it goes

There is more to it than many realize.
True 5G involves wired broadband in the ground as well.
Plans could be ground down to a halt ,
if they have to fight block by block, city by city,
to navigate local rules, rent-seeking government demands,
and junk-science fears among the public.

Detroit's median household income was $30,344 in 2017
The state's median household income in 2017 was $54,909
Let's be honest the money isn't exactly in the City of Detroit.

[mwilbert]

The real range of mmWave appears to be about 1/3 of a mile.
That's a whole lot of 5G femtocells , just to cover a small area.
Does Detroit have the infrastructure money $ to invest in those networks ?

FYI, femtocells have a functional radius of about 10 meters. They are used to deploy service within a small building, like a home, or a small area of a larger building. They have nothing to do with the range of millimeter waves, and very little to do with the rollout of 5G.

[O3H]

I guess it all depends on "your" definition of small

https://www.qorvo.com/design-hub/blo...volution-of-5g

True 5G will operate at higher frequency bandwidths, such as 28 GHz or 39 GHz.
Small cells will also be critical at these millimeter wave [[mmWave) frequencies
because the signals cannot penetrate walls or buildings
and the cell sizes will have a miniscule coverage radius.

Indoor femtocell base stations has emerged as a popular solution
to analyze the impact of offloading outdoor users to small cells.
The outdoor users are initially served by macro network
and are then progressively handed over to femtocell base stations.
Small Densification is done by installing femtocell base stations
for densification is key to enabling technology for future 5G cellular networks.

Congested areas of Detroit like parks, roundabouts, city centers,
where cars/people are packed in, will make use of the infrastructure
--- if it ever gets built -- [[regulations, licensing, provisioning, etc.)

5G small base station can use massive MIMO configuration
and they can do 3D beam forming, which LTE cannot do.
These techniques aid higher data rates and reduce latency.
The placement of small cells / Femto cells strategically
is one of the areas, which can lead
to significantly improvement in throughputs.

[O3H]

It’s not profitable enough to build out in certain areas
because it won’t give them adequate return on investment.
Dana Floberg, tech consumer advocacy group, Free Press.

“Local governments are on the front lines of trying
to get their communities included in these new broadband developments,”
Spectrum licensing will be on the forefront of the rule making.

Wireless companies say one of the biggest hurdles to deploying super-fast 5G networks is negotiating with city officials for permission to install antennas on city property like buildings, street lights, lamp posts and bus shelters.
The big picture: It took 30 years to erect 150,000 cell towers for 4G.
The 5G transmitters are smaller, but the networks will need five times
that many in the next few years to achieve the speeds providers are promising.

https://www.freepress.net/our-respon...s-5g-hypocrisy

Reality hurts :
---The bill would prohibit municipalities from setting their own annual lease rates and permit and zoning fees as is currently allowed for leasing public space for cell towers.

"Ultimately, this legislation equates to a massive giveaway of taxpayer-funded infrastructure to multi-billion dollar companies for pennies on the dollars and is not in the best interest of those we represent," Evans and Patterson wrote in a letter submitted Thursday to the House Energy Policy Committee.

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/techno...nas-house-bill

[O3H]

Detroit is about to loose

https://twitter.com/ChadLivengood/status/1064305581039730688

The revenue wireless carriers could reap from data plans for smartphones, tablet computers and Wi-Fi-enabled vehicles dwarfs the proposed lease rate: Verizon and AT&T sell 1GB data plans for as little as $15 per month or $180 a year. Sprint advertises a 2GB data plan for $40 a month or $480 annually.
The legislation, Senate Bill 637, also calls for infrastructure companies to pay a maximum $125 annual lease payment to municipalities for new utility poles they could mount along roadways, with limited power by local road agencies to object.

In Oakland County, which is in the midst of getting 250 small-cell antennas to support Sprint's wireless network, each antenna requires an inspection by a county-hired electrician as well as new paperwork to keep track of a wave of new permits for each installation..
Each antenna also requires connecting the antenna to existing underground fiber optic cable, potentially leading to the disruption of easement landscaping, sidewalks, driveways and other infrastructure.

Wayne County had been negotiating a lease rate of $1,500 per traffic pole before the legislation started gaining traction in the Legislature.
"We're desperate for revenue, and we really think this could have been a revenue source for us," "We ought to have control over our own rights of way, over our own assets."
State Sen. Mike Nofs, sponsor of the bill, acknowledged that Oakland County's contract would be voided by the fee structure in the legislation.

Let the war begin
The legislation also has exposed a division between counties and cities, which own and maintain different roads.

[bragaboutme]

You all are aware that Motor City Casino has 5G WiFi right?

[Honky Tonk]

You all are aware that Motor City Casino has 5G WiFi right?

I bet.....

[O3H]

NOT everybody is aware of the 5G wonderfulness Brag

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUser..._Michigan.html

http://www.hotelwifitest.com/hotels/...-casino-hotel/

You would not be confusing the 5 GigaHerz signal of a WiFi signal
with the 5G of the fifth generation of cellular mobile communications ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????
It succeeds the 4G [[LTE/WiMax), 3G [[UMTS) and 2G [[GSM) systems.

[O3H]

One side-effect of failing to provide infrastructural support for residents,
is that post-secondary education levels are low
relative to the rest of the nation, and declining.

It's this notion of a "smart city," needs to be fixed.
Through the deployment of a high-speed, digital wireless infrastructure,
the theory goes, citizens would have expanded access
to higher education resources.
A more educated population would make the city more attractive
to employers, and could help lure businesses and jobs back.

Standing in the way are old, perhaps ancient, city ordinances,
teetering under the weight of state and federal laws.
They were from an era where it made perfect sense for the city
to make way for sturdy poles erected between
the streets and sidewalks. [[electrical and phone lines)

[bragaboutme]

I remember during the Kilpatrick administration there was an upgrade done in downtown and it spread to the whole city when the nation went from 3g to 4g. Why would that not be the case with 5g.

[O3H]

5G is a complete different operation involving a new concept.

5G will make use of much higher frequencies for radio communications
than has been used in cellular networks in the past.
Since higher frequencies attenuate [[weaken) with distance more rapidly
than lower frequencies, 5G will use much smaller cell sizes than previous generations.

The "leasing" of EACH telephone pole, attachment point, building flange, etc., etc. will be a massive chaotic war for literally 100,000's of antennae.

Think anywhere you could literally see with your eye [[line of sight),
a rooftop, a lamppost, a windowsill, a flagpole, etc., etc, as a SMALL antenna point, using High frequencies [[short distance) connections.

In 2016, nearly 11 GHz of mmWavespectrum was made
available for flexible wireless use, including new licensed spectrum
located in the
28 GHz [[27.5–28.35 GHz),
37 GHz [[37–38.6 GHz)
39 GHz [[38.6–40 GHz) bands,
as well as new unlicensed spectrum in 64–71 GHz.

Furthermore, in 2017, the FCC
made available an additional 1.7 GHz of mmWave
spectrum for flexible wireless use in the
24 GHz band [[24.25–24.45 GHz 24.75–25.25 GHz)
47.2–48.2 GHz band [[a segment of the wider
47.2–50.2 GHz band [[47 GHz band)).

All four mobile operators in the US have access to
high-frequency spectrum bands.

Following several acquisitions, Verizon
[[through XO Communications and Straight Path Communications)
and AT&T [[through FiberTower) own a large amount
of the licensed mmWave spectrum.
Both operators have announced that such spectrum will
underpin their planned 5G networks.
T-Mobile also holds spectrum in the 28 and
39 GHz bands in a number of major metropolitan areas,
and, in February 2018, it announced an agreement to
buy some 1150 MHz of Local Multipoint Distribution
Service [[LMDS) spectrum [[28-31 GHz) in Ohio, for 5G use.

The FCC intends to auction spectrum in the
28 GHz, 37 GHz and 39 GHz bands not
currently licensed to any single operator.
In addition, it is likely that FCC auctions will include the newly
allocated bands [[24 GHz and 47.2-48.2 GHz).
To that end, in late February 2018, the FCC Chairman
announced plans to hold an auction of spectrum in the
28 GHz band in November 2018, followed immediately
by an auction of spectrum in the 24 GHz band.

www.crainsdetroit.com/technology/patterson-evans-blast-20-fees-5g-antennas-house-bill

[mwilbert]

I remember during the Kilpatrick administration there was an upgrade done in downtown and it spread to the whole city when the nation went from 3g to 4g. Why would that not be the case with 5g.

No reason. There are some lower 5G frequencies that aren't yet available [[not cleared by local TV stations) in the Detroit area, so those will be delayed. Will Detroit be one of the very first cities with 5G? No, the initial cities for most [[all?) carriers have already been announced. Otherwise, you can expect 5G to be deployed in Detroit just like everywhere else.

[O3H]

The dream gets a bit ugly

As our roads and interstates crumble, struggling cash-poor cities are expected to invest in Smart Cities sensor networks, municipal broadband, and public-safety Wi-Fi.

Telecom companies are expected to bring fiber to the home, build rural broadband networks, and finance the construction of advanced high-speed 5G networks.

The USDOT reports America has 8 million miles of paved roads with a replacement value of $16 trillion dollars, representing 506 billion square feet of non-productive real-estate.

Remember Detroit has a problem collecting taxes, income, revenue.
Where is Detroit suddenly going to get the cash to become High Tech

[O3H]

Many communities are unhappy with what they saw as the state setting standards for what are called small-cell wireless antennas. The cities believed their ability to regulate where small cell towers could be located and what they could look like. They saw it as an infringement on their home rule powers.

The cities believed laws would have allowed telecommunications companies to attach new wireless equipment to existing light poles, traffic signals or sign poles along public streets or construct a new pole or modify an existing pole that has wireless equipment.

This will be the "snag" to quick deployment -- red tape, in fighting, bickering, etc.

[Honky Tonk]

Will Detroit be left behind in 5G ?

No........

[O3H]

MANY would disagree with Honky Tonk - things are NOT as they were

http://www.governing.com/topics/tran...es-states.html

The undertaking becomes cost-prohibitive in less populated areas.
5G is likely to further widen the digital divide in disadvantaged parts of America.

Some poles are unable to handle extra weight & electricity of a node.

One major point of contention is the fees localities charge providers
to mount SMALL cells on poles and other public infrastructure.

Cities argue that they should be able to charge carriers market rate fees
based on land values or the value of nearby private property.

State legislatures usually set much lower caps on the annual fees
that localities can charge telecoms for each pole.

It was DAMN TOUGH to get the lights on Detroit - now 5G - get real !!!
http://www.publiclightingauthority.o...tion-schedule/



The new FCC rules to encourage faster deployment of 5G infrastructure
are an industry effort to “usurp control over these coveted public assets and utilize publicly owned streetlight poles for their own profit"
--- NOT to the benefit of a city like Detroit