What happened to Barney Frank's promise

[oladub]

Right about the time the federal reserve came into existence, so did the middle class.

You should thank the federal reserve.

The Federal Reserve came into existence in 1913. It was the product of Woodrow Wilson [[D) who also started a draft, got us into WWI, and instituted the federal income tax. It is the third US central bank.

Suite yourself, but I'm not going to be thanking this tool of the status quo elites that specializes in creating financial bubbles resulting in working people losing their jobs, inflation, and the impoverishment of retirees.

"No country in the world has ever succeeded by debasing its currency," "That's what [[Fed Chairman Bernanke) is trying to do. He's trying to debase the currency as a way to revive America. It has never worked in the long term or the medium term." "if you bail out every investment bank that gets in trouble, that's not capitalism, that's socialism for the rich,"
-Jim Rogers

[vetalalumni]

Belated welcome to the board KingRex! No counter argument from me. It is refreshing to sometimes read different or less frequently stated views.

[oladub]

"

The Fed didn't create bubbles, your free market religion did, despite Fed warning.

It is the Fed which is pouring Trillion$ into the economy outside of the regulations of Congress and without even having to provide a full disclosure to Congress.. More dollars chasing the same amount of goods and services will raise prices. The housing bubble would not have been possible if plentiful money was unavailable to lend. That would have driven up interest rates, The Fed fixed that problem by electronically printing money out of thin air so that interest rates stayed low. Anytime something is subsidized, we get more of it so we wound up with surplus housing. In a moment of total insanity, the Fed and Geithner, the tax cheat, are trying to solve the problem by creating even more Trillion$ to produce more housing starts.

This is not all bad, your friends, the mega-bankers continue to fare quite well under the Fed and Obama policies. Your Goldman-Sachs rosary prayers to bank deregulators Sommers and Rubin, now Obama financial advisors, have been answered.

[ccbatson]

Thank G-d that free markets aren't caring entities. It should be nobody but the individual's responsibility to look out for/care for their own well being. When free markets prevail, that is the only viable option and eliminates the need for a big brother patronizing government to look out for individuals at the cost of liberty and freedom.

[ccbatson]

The core of our existence as a sovereign nation is a fallacy?

[rb336]

"Assuming that each individual is equal and has equal power to look out for their own well-being, which, of course, is a fallacy."

The core of our existence as a sovereign nation is a fallacy?

You don't seriously believe that a kid born into extreme poverty in Detroit, appalachia, or elsewhere has equal opportunities to achieve success as a kid born into a blue-blood family that continues to fuel his life through numerous failed enterprises all the way through to a failed presidency? yes, people do, occasionally, break out of the poverty cycle, but that is rare, and has gotten more rare since Rreaganomics.

[oladub]

How can you think we have free markets, when republicans try to manipulate the market with tax cuts, subsidies, favoritism, grants, loans, etc...?

How can you have free markets when you have the GOP encouraging and supporting monopolistic behavior in its top contributors and supporters?

Thanks for setting the record straight. Indeed, the Democrats do not have a monopoly on trying " to manipulate the market with tax cuts, subsidies, favoritism, grants, loans, etc...?"' And "encouraging and supporting monopolistic behavior in its top contributors and supporters?" This is truly a bi-partisan effort to the bottom and mainstream Republicans have often been a part of it.

Also thank you for pointing out the difference between 'classical liberalism' and how the term 'liberal' is used today. Meanings change. The meaning of 'conservative' has also changed quite a bit since Eisenhour and drastically since Coolidge. To suggest though that "Modern liberalism [[American and Canadian usage), and in Europe social democracy, seek only to mitigate what they see as the problems of an unrestrained free market, and accept its existence as such." is a bit of a whitewash. It goes beyond that. What, for instance, do lifestyle legislation, proposals for involuntary servitude and censorship, and policies promoting inflation have to do with unrestrained free markets? They certainly aren't part of Classical Liberalism.

[rb336]

What, for instance, do lifestyle legislation, proposals for involuntary servitude and censorship, and policies promoting inflation have to do with unrestrained free markets? They certainly aren't part of Classical Liberalism.

and they aren't part of modern progressive liberalism either

[oladub]

Rb, Oh, then I must have been mistaken in thinking that modern progressive liberalism supported or support school bussing, gay marrriages, 2nd amendment qualifications, hiring quotas, and has advocated fair and hate speech legislation, Rahm's proposed three month involuntary servitude program [[video link provided upon request), and even restrictions on the sale of vitamins. Those are just the first examples I could reel off in response to the ridiculous quote that modern liberals "seek ONLY to mitigate what they see as the problems of an unrestrained free market".

[rb336]

Rb, Oh, then I must have been mistaken in thinking that modern progressive liberalism supported or support school bussing, gay marrriages, 2nd amendment qualifications, hiring quotas, and has advocated fair and hate speech legislation, Rahm's proposed three month involuntary servitude program [[video link provided upon request), and even restrictions on the sale of vitamins. Those are just the first examples I could reel off in response to the ridiculous quote that modern liberals "seek ONLY to mitigate what they see as the problems of an unrestrained free market".

sorry, ola, progressive liberals seek to extend rights to people who have been denied them. occasionally that means redressing injustices perpetrated on various minority groups. none of that falls under your "lifestyle legislation, proposals for involuntary servitude and censorship, and policies promoting inflation" group.

[oladub]

You guys have validated my point that modern liberalism is not ONLY about mitigating what it sees as the problems of an unrestrained free market by alternatively trying to distance yourselves from liberal agenda items of the recent past while supporting other contemporary social agenda issues.

detroitsuperfly, check out Detroitej72's post # 31 today in which he says he wants to restore the Fairness Doctine. He was on a roll today also wanting to send people he disagrees with to Guantanamo. Just remember Detroitej72 the next time that crazy Glenn Beck starts freaking out about the Fairness Doctrine and FEMA camps. Maybe he was reading posts on this forum.

The three month involountary servitude proposal was something that the White House Chief of Staff has been pushing for at least three years. You can watch him say it in his own words http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtDSwyCPEsQ or go to a copy of the President elect's web site which says Obama wants to 'require' 700 hours of service through high school and college. That's about four months. http://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net/o25/p...1108shot1a.jpg

My wife sold herbs and vitamins for eight years. Retailers in that business are worried about expanding government regulations of nutritional supplements. The FDA is very cozy with the pharmaceutical companies that want the exclusive right to sell some products now being sold as vitamins. Also, the European Union and Canada already more strictly regulate the distribution of supplements. The pharmaceutical companies would like our government to adopt the same standards. These regulations are especially favored by politicians like Hillary and McCain who recieve large pharmaceutical donations.

That leaves the Fed which is trapping us. You are correct that the markets have lost liquidity due to the collapse of housing, stocks, and commodity prices. However, when and if the economy is righted, the lost liquidity will reappear in addition to all the Fed funny money. Or if China stops buying treasury notes and/or the US dollar is replaced as the world's reserve currency, all of these foreign dollars will come home to roost. Liquidity could come from all three places at once and cause massive price hikes. I thought you believed that Obama was going to turn the economy around . If he does, inflation hits us hard. China has already reduced its purchases of Treasuries. China, Iran, and Russia are discussing how to replace the dollar as the world's reserve currency. The dollar is going to take a hit..

[rb336]

My wife sold herbs and vitamins for eight years. Retailers in that business are worried about expanding government regulations of nutritional supplements. The FDA is very cozy with the pharmaceutical companies that want the exclusive right to sell some products now being sold as vitamins. Also, the European Union and Canada already more strictly regulate the distribution of supplements. The pharmaceutical companies would like our government to adopt the same standards. These regulations are especially favored by politicians like Hillary and McCain who recieve large pharmaceutical donations.

gee, I just LOVE the ideas that these companies can go around making unfounded claims about the benefits of their products, while at the same time selling us stuff to put in our bodies with contents about which we know nothing. I want tighter regs on these guys AND big Pharma

[oladub]

Rb, Again, thanks for exemplifying my statement that modern liberals are not only about controlling the excesses of unfettered capitalism. I would go the other way and allow people to use their own intelligence and common sense. Most people will do the right thing for themselves and their families. Where do all your controls, regulations, and rules end? Now you want the government to regulate our use of vitamins and herbs.

[oladub]

Why do you keep bringing up socialism when it wasn't mentioned?

I do not promote conservative POV, whatever that is. I support the Constitution. There is often a difference. Rules about the use of public airwaves, in my book, are subservient to the Constitution. Why don't you join RB and buy your own radio station? Then you can promote involutaty servitude, censorship, wiretapping, the Afghan War and whatever else you choose.

Look up the Thirteenth Amendment to clarify your thinking about "invlountary servitude" It is not the same as 'slavery' as you claim. Neither is legal except for committing a crime. I have no objection to bettering a community when it is done on a volunteer basis. Is Israel your model state?

Some things in medical journals also turn out to be false. Free markets also include the choices of individuals. I eat too much meat but don't want the protection of your food police. If I want to buy some vitamins, I don't want to pay ten times as much to have them prescribed.

By your logic, if we all had printing presses in our basement like the Fed, we could all go out and spend money without consequences just like the Fed. China's leaders have publicly voiced their concerns that our monetary policies were causing China to have second thoughts about buying more treasuries.

[oladub]

SM, I know this is a difficult concept for you but it is called Liberty. If someone wants to see if a $25 bottle of something will help with their Chronic Fatigue syndrome after spending thousands of dollars at the doctor's office, they are usually out $25 but sometimes they are helped.

Once, I had a searing pain in my chest that got so bad that I told my wife after about a month. She went out into her garden and picked a bunch of lemonbalm and boiled it into a tea. It was truly wretched stuff. It tasted like weeds. The next day my shingles were gone. It came back a month later. Same treatment. Next day gone. Now you might want to have people like my wife arrested for practicing medicine, and succeeding, without some license. But she got rid of my shingles for free. She also had a large number of customers who were very greatful for helping them.

My Mother, on the other hand, went ot a doctor complaining about headaches for years. After she died from a brain tumor we found out that Dr. Johnson had been prescribing her placebos for all those years. Ooops.

Gas prices have gone down and housing is still overpriced. Both price adjustments are part of a necessary correction. I wish the prices of medicine and groceries would also go down.

[oladub]

I just came if from using a table saw for four hours. My fingers were at times close to th eblade. It's only a matter of time before you caring folks contrive some sort of educational requirements or license to protect my fingers but I'd rather take my chances. I don't know if operating a table saw is more dangerous than taking my multiple vitamin but if a flurry of news stories start reporting saw accidents, I just know that I will have to hire a professional to finish my cold frame.

Fly, "involuntary" just means "not voluntary" - that's all. Even prisoners get paid. Egads, You want to regulate what I am allowed to hear, subject high school and college students to involutary servitude on your terms, and determine what I may or may not put into my mouth.

SM, I like the idea of meat inspectors when I buy Walmart meat. Walmart is a grat place to buy food if you want the most regulated corporate farm food possible. When I have raised my own or buy it from someone I know, it is not a concern. If you haven't noticed inflation you must not have been in a grocery store for a couple of years.

[ccbatson]

Not anarchy, constitutionally limited representative self government..BIG DIFFERENCE between that and anarchy.

[oladub]

Fly says, "If you don't want the credit, don't do the service. You have a choice. Therefore its NOT involuntary."

Not according to Obama's website-

"Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to REQUIRE 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year. " -originally posted on Change-Gov, an official website of President-Elect Obama http://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net/o25/p...1108shot1a.jpg

Please note the word 'require'. In my world and according to my dictionary, 'required' and 'involuntary' are not synonomous. Also, compensation, or lack therof, has nothing to do with the word 'servitude'. Perhaps you can find a dictionary that links servitude and compensation to back you assertion? The 13th Amendment forbids involuntary servitude except for commiting a crime.

You complain about your supplements. How do you feel about medical marijuana?

States should legalize medical marijuana, legalize the production of industrial hemp, and allow people to grow their own marijuana if they choose to. What people choose to stick into their own bodies and do with their bodies is pretty much their own business.

SM, I see you have joined with Fly in your mutual support of the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve, as you know, is a set of private banks owned by for-profit banks like Goldman-Sachs, and CitiCorp. It is absolutely amazing that folks who are so defensive about socialism and critical of the free market are the biggest cheerleaders on this board for the firms at the very apex of corporate capitalism. The Obama administration is stuffed with financial advisors from Goldman-Sachs and the like. Robert Rubin spent 26 years with Goldman-Sachs. Treasury Secretary and tax cheat Timothy Geithner is the former head of the NY branch of the Fed. The revolving doors are rapidly twirling between Goldman-Sachs, the Treasury, the Fed, and the campaign coffers of the likes of McCain and Obama. The Fed operates under a lack of transparency that President Obama claims to value. Although it is charged with 'regulating' our money supply, Congress cannot ask for basic information from or demand an audit of the Fed. What we consequently wind up with is an organization, the Fed, that regulates the money supply for the benefit of its owner banks.

[rb336]

please note that the link goes to an image on conspiracy psycho Alex Jones' website. I never saw that "required" service comment when I was on the site originally [[the pres elect site, now gone)

[oladub]

please note that the link goes to an image on conspiracy psycho Alex Jones' website. I never saw that "required" service comment when I was on the site originally [[the pres elect site, now gone)

Rb, If you didn't see something, it never existed? What kind of logic is that?

This is Alex Jones website. http://www.prisonplanet.com/. How did you link http://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net/o25/p...1108shot1a.jpg to the prison planet site?

Although I don't approve of the comments posted on this video, listen to Rahm in 2006 say almost the same thing as the Obama website. Universal, three months, required. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtDSwyCPEsQ

[oladub]

The John Williams Shadow Government Statistics is a recognized site and hardly crank. Indeed, you agreed that its recent statistics were in line with what you want to believe. Granted it isn't from you Party Headquarters, but shooting the messenger seldom proves your point.

Your premise that because at this moment the Fed and Treaury money just beginning to flood into the economy hasn't yet caused inflation is a bit like looking out the window on a particularly sunny day and deciding that winter will never come again. Historically, however, we know that to every action there is a reaction. Think Zimbabwe or the Weimar Republic. They both printed a lot of money just like the Bush/Obama era Fed. As a sidenote; Every fiat currency becomes worthless often as the result of Mugabe, Bernanke, Bush, Obama type policies.

If you want to know where I get my numbers, here are some for starters as provided by a variety of sources of. You might decide that all the links are from whacko soures. Incidently, one of the posters here agrees with you about deflation. https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=40199

Solutions? I've offered a solution many times. A correction is required to end the bubble so we can get moving again. The government should allow the banks to go through the bankruptcy process. Housing prices should be allowed to tumble until people can afford them and start bidding up the prices again.If this means going down another 20-40%, that's great. A fringe benefit is that there would be a lot of affordable housing available so the government could get out of its affordable housing programs. Two of my kids are in the market for housing now so for their sake, I hope Obama stops wasting money thrying to keep bankers richand housing expensive.

[ccbatson]

The dollar's value is arbitrary given the lack of reference/gold standard. Another liberal plan that went hand and hand with the Fed.

[ccbatson]

Where does it say that it is the job of government to have the power to inflate or deflate the economy? THe constitution essentially forbids this abuse of power.

[ccbatson]

Written when there was a Gold standard.

[ccbatson]

Logic, when there is a gold standard, the ability to regulate currency is bounded by the standard. No standard=no boundary.