Jeff Bezos: Bring stable employment to high unemployment urban areas

**Richard** · July-18-18, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

And how much direct harm have you caused to locally owned business while you were saving a few pennies?

It may be different up there because Michigan supplies the rest of the country when it comes to manufacturing but most of my suppliers do not stock anything anymore.

By the time I drive there to find out they do not have it in stock it is just easier to order direct,it does slow up turn around though.

There are not many small locally owned businesses,just chains with little inventory.

Both in eBay and Amazon there are individual suppliers that also use those venues for additional sales,I always check in the origin of the seller because a lot of them just direct ship from China and never really touch the item.

I just ordered a master cylinder kit for my vintage truck,the order originated in Brazil but the parts were manufactured in Argentina,very high quality,the ones advailable here in the U.S. Were Chinese stamped out knock off junk.

I got the rotors and brake pads,for my car,directly from the machine shop out of Michigan,$250 where I could have went to the local parts store and bought the same items for less then $100.

But I will get 25,000 miles out of the quality ones where the local cheap China crap I would have to change every year.

Even locally the suppliers are just go betweens for cheap Chinese crap in order to maximize profit,I would rather pay a little more and not have to replace the same item every 6 months.

Weather it is local or online,whoever has the best made product is who I deal with.

But that may be a generation thing,us old peps know the difference and value between quality and well made verses cheap,the younger generations will be raised on cheap crap so they will not know the difference eventually.

**Johnnny5** · July-18-18, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by 3WC

Costco has the same business model. It breaks even on operations but virtually all of it millions in profits come from annual membership fees.

I don't agree that supplementing retail sales through customer membership fees is the same thing as supplementing retail sales from a totally unrelated business [[Amazon's AWS). Costco is still making their profits from retail sales, they're basically just trading higher prices with an annual fee for the abilty to shop in their stores.

**Johnnny5** · July-18-18, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Bezos, Inc. doesn't care what you, me, or anyone thinks of him. He's making money in all segments, but prefers to re-invest rather than cash out. Isn't that a great thing? Don't we wish all corporations don't care about the current quarter's performance and look at the long term?

No need to worry about whether Amazon is making money. He's doing just fine -- and AWS is the thick layer of icing on the ever-growing cake.

Bezos might not care what he is doing to the rest of the retail segment, but we should be very concerned, and our representatives in Washington should be as well.

My question is what is the end game for the growth of Amazon? Is their long term goal to use losses and miniscule profit margins to dominate online retail to the point where no one can compete? If that's the case, then I think the government has an obligation to step in. Century old retailers are going bankrupt on a monthly basis, and no one in their right mind is putting money into new online retail sectors in which Amazon competes [[With the exception of those just looking to get bought out and walk away, or existing retailers last ditch efforts to stay in business).

**Meddle** · July-18-18, 12:17 PM

If you look back a few years, you'll find that the stock didn't really start to take off until numbers from AWS were rolled into the main company's numbers.

And that's why I feel the company needs to be broken into at least five:

AWS
Retail
Transportation [[trucking, air freight and local delivery)
Space exploration
Research and Innovation.

**O3H** · July-18-18, 07:48 PM

AMAZON leverages technology and works on economies of scale

Back in 2012, Amazon acquired Kiva Systems, the warehouse robotics company,
to help automate its order fulfillment operations.
Human-robot symbiosis exploded with 2,000 robots next to humans.
As 2017 drawing to a close, Amazon has added a dizzying 55,000 robots
to its fleet, approx. doubling its total number of robo-workers from 2016.
Estimates suggest that by the end of the year
robots could make up 20 percent of the company’s workforce.

**RaumVogel** · July-19-18, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by O3H

AMAZON leverages technology and works on economies of scale

Back in 2012, Amazon acquired Kiva Systems, the warehouse robotics company,
to help automate its order fulfillment operations.
Human-robot symbiosis exploded with 2,000 robots next to humans.
As 2017 drawing to a close, Amazon has added a dizzying 55,000 robots
to its fleet, approx. doubling its total number of robo-workers from 2016.
Estimates suggest that by the end of the year
robots could make up 20 percent of the company’s workforce.

Slave labor camps.Where the human worker is subject to it's robot overlords.

**O3H** · July-19-18, 07:46 AM

The robots due the slave labor, allowing humans to operate at a higher level

**RaumVogel** · July-19-18, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by O3H

The robots due the slave labor, allowing humans to operate at a higher level

https://www.facebook.com/senatorsand...7162842017908/

**archfan** · July-20-18, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Bezos might not care what he is doing to the rest of the retail segment, but we should be very concerned, and our representatives in Washington should be as well.

You may or may not remember when Walmart took over as the dominant retailer. People complained they were destroying our way of life, and they would dominate all retail with their evil efficiency and nefarious logistics savvy. Now, Walmart is back on their heels and Amazon looks like it will take over the world.

But really, that's what innovations do - sweep in, shake things up, then become the status quo. Self serve supermarkets had a cost advantage over mom and pop groceries, which shut down. A new Walmart in a rural area could shut down several downtowns.

It will be interesting to see what will happen with retail. Some small businesses will give us a reason to drag ourselves in - personal service, unique products, social interactions, etc. Amazon may eventually find their costs increasing if their peasants revolt. And ultimately, some innovator is going to eat Amazon's lunch with their great new idea.

**O3H** · July-20-18, 04:28 PM

There is zero difference between AMAZON and any Auto Supplier being squeezed to supply cheaper and cheaper parts, operating on small margins.
Many people will work 10-12 hours days [[especially the newbies) standing on the floor, [[no sitting), moving parts into fixtures [[welding, piercing, etc.) in a dirty, smelly, windowless, old run down building. UAW Workers force seniority.
Sure the robots do a process but UAW workers put wear/tear on bodies.

**Johnnny5** · July-21-18, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by archfan

You may or may not remember when Walmart took over as the dominant retailer. People complained they were destroying our way of life, and they would dominate all retail with their evil efficiency and nefarious logistics savvy. Now, Walmart is back on their heels and Amazon looks like it will take over the world.

But really, that's what innovations do - sweep in, shake things up, then become the status quo. Self serve supermarkets had a cost advantage over mom and pop groceries, which shut down. A new Walmart in a rural area could shut down several downtowns.

It will be interesting to see what will happen with retail. Some small businesses will give us a reason to drag ourselves in - personal service, unique products, social interactions, etc. Amazon may eventually find their costs increasing if their peasants revolt. And ultimately, some innovator is going to eat Amazon's lunch with their great new idea.

I'm old enough to remember when they built the first Walmart in Michigan, and had been to their stores in Texas long before that. I'm not opposed to Amazon competing through innovation or efficiency [[At least not yet), what worries me is their model of growth and market dominance and how they got/get away with funding that dominance by subsidizing it through outside means. That's more akin to how Rockefeller grew Standard oil than how Sam Walton succeeded with Walmart.

Walmart has consistently been profitable as a retailer throughout their entire 50+ year history. True they may have driven many competitors out of business, but at least they did so on fairly level playing field.

A better comparison to what Amazon is doing would be if the Detroit casinos took all their profits from the gaming floor and opened gas stations all around the city selling at a loss generating discount. Of course customers would be ecstatic about getting such a great deal on fuel, but that's a shortsighted way of looking at it. This is what Amazon has been doing for decades! They took huge loses on their retail sales and subsidized them through investors and their other profitable businesses. We have laws against gas stations doing this [[Thanks to Rockafeller's shenanigans), but for some reason Washington has all but ignored Amazon's attempts to do basically the same thing.

Here's a link showing the difference in profit margins between Walmart and Amazon. Keep in mind that Amazon's charts include their profits from AWS which account for almost 100% of their profits in most years. Without those profits from AWS Amazon would shows losses in almost every year since they opened for business!

https://revenuesandprofits.com/amazo...its-1995-2015/

**archfan** · July-22-18, 02:26 AM

The comparison is tough between Walmart and Amazon - you're comparing a 67 year old company whose explosive growth is well behind them, with a 21 year old company who is still growing. At 21 years, Walmart was a regional player still.

Also, this explains that Amazon's retail business in North America was profitable, but their international retail had an even bigger loss.

Finally, to bring this back to Detroit, I still prefer to shop at Meijer's Thrifty Acres.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-22-18, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Bezos might not care what he is doing to the rest of the retail segment, but we should be very concerned, and our representatives in Washington should be as well.

Why concerned? I see no harm to anyone. New entrants [[WalMart) are growing like weeds online.

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

My question is what is the end game for the growth of Amazon? Is their long term goal to use losses and miniscule profit margins to dominate online retail to the point where no one can compete?

Nothing to worry about, since that's impossible. Amazon will kill Alibaba? No. Kill WalMart? No.

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

If that's the case, then I think the government has an obligation to step in.

Did you think they needed to step in when IBM was ruling the computer industry?

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Century old retailers are going bankrupt on a monthly basis, and no one in their right mind is putting money into new online retail sectors in which Amazon competes [[With the exception of those just looking to get bought out and walk away, or existing retailers last ditch efforts to stay in business).

Who cares what miserable firms go bankrupt. Why is that a problem? It sounds like progress to me.

In essence, WalMart is a new online retailer. They took some investor cash, and bought Jet. They've become the clear #2 player in online retail.

The most interesting thing I found when looking at online sales stats was the Canada's Hudson's Bay Company makes the list of *US* online retailers. Maybe that's a mistake. But interesting. https://wwd.com/business-news/busine...lers-10862796/

Reading your posts, you seem to think that not taking profits is somehow a problem. Or is it shifting profits from one business unit to another. Let's break them up!

You may be misunderstanding what's happening. BezosAmazon decided to not play by the usual Wall Street playbook, wherein you raise money by selling stock, and you agree to return cash dividends as soon as you make a profit. BezosAmazon decided that investment was more important than any profit-taking. So he cheated Wall Street. And only Wall Street. Most populists like yourself think that's a good thing. He cut out the money men. He could have tried to keep raising more money and paying more dividends and interest. It might have worked. But he bet big. And it that certainly worked. Money flowed to workers, building contractors, creating a giant AWS [[web/database hosting) service, and back to the economy -- instead of taking a stop at Wall St. I like that approach.

But today he is not invincible. Macys is the #4 online retailer. Who'd a thunk.

So you'd rather have BA take profits, keep prices the same [[since price isn't a function of profits but of the market), and stop investing in the future?

America got Amazon Web Services because Bezos decided to build a better mousetrap. Its that kind of creative work that makes the US the best in the world. Keep it up, Jeff.

**O3H** · July-22-18, 03:31 PM

The USA has a unique way of dealing with bubbles via WallStreet.
When the tide turns, and the stock price tumbles, correction will occur.
At $1,800 a pop, no one is gobbling up AMAZON stock right now.

**Johnnny5** · July-22-18, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by O3H

The USA has a unique way of dealing with bubbles via WallStreet.
When the tide turns, and the stock price tumbles, correction will occur.
At $1,800 a pop, no one is gobbling up AMAZON stock right now.

Amazon stock has almost doubled in the last year. If that's not the definition of being "Gobbled up" I really don't know what is.

**stasu1213** · July-22-18, 06:07 PM

An Amazon Fulfillment Center would had been nice for the city but we wanted Amazon to move a second headquarters to Detroit instead

**O3H** · July-22-18, 08:08 PM

^^ Detroit DID get a new fulfillment center, built in the last few months.
It's directly across from the Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport,
in Romulus: DTW1 - 32801 Ecorse Road, Romulus, MI.

**313WX** · July-22-18, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by O3H

^^ Detroit DID get a new fulfillment center, built in the last few months.
It's directly across from the Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport,
in Romulus: DTW1 - 32801 Ecorse Road, Romulus, MI.

They meant in Detroit proper.

**Johnnny5** · July-23-18, 12:08 AM

A few years old, but applies more today than ever.

https://medium.com/@matthewstoller/h...n-fe947c15cb61

**Wesley Mouch** · July-23-18, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

A few years old, but applies more today than ever.

https://medium.com/@matthewstoller/h...n-fe947c15cb61

If you dislike Amazon, lots of justification for your prejudice. Most of the claims could be made against every large firm in existence. What big firm doesn't have tax disputes? Or wage and hour claims against them? If you dislike business in general, this article will prove you right.

But what Stoller doesn't do is explain how this 'monopoly of one man' isn't vulnerable to competition.

For example, he says

[COLOR=rgba[[0, 0, 0, 0.843137)]Amazon should not have the ability to peer directly into the commercial infrastructure of its competitors, or control the critical infrastructure of entities with which it competes directly, like Netflix.[/COLOR]

Well first, he doesn't say Amazon DOES peer at competitors data, just that it could. And in fact, they don't. He doesn't even both to accuse them of this. If they did nobody would use their web services. Netflix would leave. After all, there is plenty of competition in this market. [[IBM & Microsoft to name two.)

There's nothing about Amazons business that couldn't collapse in a minute. He even says...

[COLOR=rgba[[0, 0, 0, 0.843137)]As good a planner as Jeff Bezos might be, Soviet-style bureaucratic structures do not in the long-run deliver anything but catastrophe. They can produce a burst of growth up front, as Amazon is doing now and as the U.S.S.R. did in the 1950s, but [[Amazon will) fall apart as their internal dynamics reveal themselves unable to meet human needs[/COLOR]

Has Amazon disrupted existing businesses. Yes.

Is it a problem that he's killed inefficient businesses?

Does he even mention that WalMart is doing just fine competing with Amazon? No.

Back to the thread... Amazon owes no obligation to Detroit proper or anybody else. Their just a great firm delivering great value. To quote Stoller again...

[COLOR=rgba[[0, 0, 0, 0.843137)]The one group that is treated with exceptional grace is consumers. They get low prices and great service.[/COLOR]

Now there's a real indictment.

**Johnnny5** · July-23-18, 12:04 PM

Wesley, Amazon is immune to serious competion because its retail business doesn't need to be profitable. Not even Walmart can compete with that business model, and your assumption that they are is incorrect. The growth of Walmart's online sales has been anemic at best. They account for less than 4% of total online sales [[Compared to Amazon that is approaching 50%).

From the link below.

"It's also possible that greater regulatory scrutiny could

one day

throw a wrench into the steady expansion of Amazon's e-commerce empire. But don't count on Walmart or another smaller rival to do so."

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1449...ce-growth.html

**Meddle** · July-23-18, 05:39 PM

Resistance is Futile

Attachment 36208

> > R E S I S T < <

**O3H** · July-23-18, 08:09 PM

I have a hard time to believe that AMAZON is profiting from Whole Foods.
The price savings for the everyday family just is not there, regardless of the private 365 labeled goods, or the Prime Pantry, or the yearly Prime package. It will be a long time before they shed that "Whole Paycheck" image. If they thought delivered packages were stolen before, wait till they are filled with food, sitting on someone's porch in cooler weather......

**Shai_Hulud** · July-23-18, 08:52 PM

Late to the party, but apparently no has questioned the assumption that the work amazon is offering is actually stable, regardless of who it's offered to.

https://gizmodo.com/on-amazon-s-time-1826570882
https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/...h-amazon-temp/
http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2018/04/wha...r-to-find-out/

**archfan** · July-24-18, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Wesley, Amazon is immune to serious competion because its retail business doesn't need to be profitable. Not even Walmart can compete with that business model, and your assumption that they are is incorrect. The growth of Walmart's online sales has been anemic at best. They account for less than 4% of total online sales [[Compared to Amazon that is approaching 50%).
...

Amazon hasn't had to be very profitable yet, because it has managed to continually extend the startup model of high growth/reinvestment over profits. And Wall Street has rewarded them for it, by continually boosting their stock price.

That high growth model needs to show steadily accelerating growth. But they can't grow forever. Then, they will have to balance their slowing growth with increasing profits, reinvestment will slow, and pretty soon their finances will start to look like Walmart's.