TAX the non-profits , like churches

**O3H** · July-05-18, 11:13 AM

Yes, you read that correctly
Our government IS moving the direction
of taxation upon non-profits

Recent tax-code rewrite requires churches, hospitals, colleges, orchestras and other historically tax-exempt organizations to begin paying a 21 percent tax on some types of fringe benefits they provide their employees.

HAMMER TIME - things need to get paid for in this country :
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ployees-670362

**Canadian Visitor** · July-05-18, 11:54 AM

A good start.

A non-profit would have little or no net income on which to pay Corporate Income Tax. So be it.

But there should be no other tax breaks [[property, sales, payroll).

I'm going to add one more thing. Some Churches and other non-profits hide their profit in the form of extravagant salary and benefits.

If the 'pastor' is taking home mid-six figures or better, that's no charity.

**O3H** · July-05-18, 12:13 PM

A survey in 2010 comparing salaries for rabbis, ministers, priests.
Rabbis average $140,000, Christian Clerics $100,000
Average pastor of more than 2,000 people gets $140,000
Top pay for religious figures in USA , more than $400,000.

If people have money to "pay" , contribute, give, etc.
than that money should be spread around to everyone, right ?

Most charities are subject to some level of transparency,
- but not churches -. Members should demand transparency.
Resistance from the leadership, might encourage a re-action

**Meddle** · July-05-18, 01:27 PM

At the very least, local Governments should be able to collect property taxes. Some of their facilities are on large acreage.

**Johnnny5** · July-05-18, 02:21 PM

The new tax appears to be targeting a very narrow slice of expenses for these entities [[benefits being given to employees). These benefits are currently not being taxed at any level as they are protected within the tax exempt status of the non-profits. I can see how this would be a nightmare for those groups that are not used to dealing with tax laws at all, but at the same time it may help cut down on some of the ridiculous/corrupt benefits like pastors driving 200K Bentleys. https://www.vibe.com/2018/02/church-...cized-bentley/

**Zacha341** · July-06-18, 05:59 AM

It's going to be interesting. The wiser Christian churches knew this day was coming and I'd not be found in one of the mega-prosperity-pastor-must-own-multi-mil-jet style churches. They're already corrupt.

Let us not forget the all religious organizations currently claiming non-profit tax exempt status would have to adhere to this taxing: Mosques, theocratic groups, Buddhist temples et al.

Additionally many secular non-profit service organizations of varied politics will be effected.

**bragaboutme** · July-06-18, 07:14 AM

You can't armchair quarterback this one. Most churches are struggling as with most charitable organizations. Not too many pastor's are driving Bentley's don't get it twisted. To tax them is to say you are going to pay volunteers it makes no sense. In the long run we all lose when we make decisions based off hear say. It's like asking a homeless person at the end of the day to pay taxes on the money he or she collected. You can't make America great again with this type of thinking.

**O3H** · July-06-18, 07:25 AM

The laws on the books are sticky wickets in many ways.

There are court cases now , allowing national churches
to claim that local churches hold their property "in trust" .
Trust law & real property law are odd; since they redistribute property away from local congregations; toward denominational hierarchies.
We have 50 states - and each one is a laboratory of Democracy.

Some states treat church property disputes just like disputes
within other voluntary associations ; applying ordinary principles
of trust and property law to the deeds .

**Richard** · July-06-18, 08:47 AM

I think they should tax anybody that comes up with another excuse to tax.

It is like any other government program,there is a level of fraud,as long as the amount of people benefiting from the program outweighs the number of frauds,it becomes the cost of doing things that way.

The IRS pays more attention to non profits then any other business.

**Canadian Visitor** · July-06-18, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by bragaboutme

You can't armchair quarterback this one. Most churches are struggling as with most charitable organizations. Not too many pastor's are driving Bentley's don't get it twisted. To tax them is to say you are going to pay volunteers it makes no sense. In the long run we all lose when we make decisions based off hear say. It's like asking a homeless person at the end of the day to pay taxes on the money he or she collected. You can't make America great again with this type of thinking.

On what basis should a church receive a tax break?

Its essentially a club where people get together once or twice a week to socialize and tell stories.

I mean no disrespect in saying that, but its an entirely accurate description.

Its entertainment.

Where it acts as entertainment why should it be taxed less than a movie theatre, or a concert venue or anything else?

You might argue that its 'free' to attend, but we all know there are 'offerings' and that these amount to a ticket price with extreme social/peer pressure to contribute. Not to mention a pastor leaving you w/the impression you'd be stealing from God if you didn't and might end up in hell.

The remaining argument would be social good. But many churches don't run food banks, or homeless shelters or medical clinics for the poor.

They support their own direct services to parishioners to some degree, missionary work and day to day programming.

Why should any of that get a break?

Most charities actually operate inside buildings that pay property tax, why shouldn't churches?

No one is suggesting taking money retroactively from 10 years ago, just on a go-forward basis.

The tax bill for a tiny inner-City or rural church with 100 members need not be high, and if they can't afford an extra 10k a year, probably time to fold shop.

My concern is with the mega churches, large, palatial, offering no sense that the social good is a priority or that its tangential at best.

Let them foot a new 2M bill and reduce the pay for and number of clergy, let them sell-off the acreage, and charge for parking. They'll likely survive and won't be quite a leech-like after.

**Bigdd** · July-06-18, 10:44 AM

Churches SHOULD be taxed.

Our government has gotten "Separation of Church and State" all backwards [[like most things).

The purpose of the separation is not to prevent people from praying in public buildings, but rather to prevent government from getting into the religion business, and deciding what IS and IS NOT an acceptable religion.

The way to do that is to treat them like any one else. INSTEAD,..the government gets itself INTO religion, by deciding what is and is not on their "accepted religion" list,.. and giving tax free status to those they accept.

**Johnnny5** · July-06-18, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by bragaboutme

You can't armchair quarterback this one. Most churches are struggling as with most charitable organizations. Not too many pastor's are driving Bentley's don't get it twisted. To tax them is to say you are going to pay volunteers it makes no sense. In the long run we all lose when we make decisions based off hear say. It's like asking a homeless person at the end of the day to pay taxes on the money he or she collected. You can't make America great again with this type of thinking.

Pastors driving Bentleys might be an extreme example, but that doesn't change the fact that there are ton of non-profits combining their tax-exempt status and questionable/inappropriate fringe benefits to transfer untaxable income to employees.

I don't want to see legitimate non-profits struggle with the costs of following this change in the tax law, but it's really an easy fix. Eliminate the applicable untaxed benefits to employees and move those expenses to payroll. The article mentions small things like free meals and parking, but those examples are being cited as cover for the more glaring shenanigans that basically amount to tax avoidance/evasion. When a for profit business buys pizza for everyone on Friday you can bet that they don't add that $6 each as income to everyone's W2 at the end of the year, and it's not likely that non-profits would be doing so either.

Increased benefits have also become a popular way of avoiding taxes in the for-profit sector and that was the main driving force behind the tax law change. As someone that pays my fair share in taxes, I don't like seeing others using loopholes to dodge their obligation to do the same.

**Honky Tonk** · July-06-18, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

On what basis should a church receive a tax break?

Its essentially a club where people get together once or twice a week to socialize and tell stories.

I mean no disrespect in saying that, but its an entirely accurate description.

Its entertainment.

Where it acts as entertainment why should it be taxed less than a movie theatre, or a concert venue or anything else?

You might argue that its 'free' to attend, but we all know there are 'offerings' and that these amount to a ticket price with extreme social/peer pressure to contribute. Not to mention a pastor leaving you w/the impression you'd be stealing from God if you didn't and might end up in hell.

The remaining argument would be social good. But many churches don't run food banks, or homeless shelters or medical clinics for the poor.

They support their own direct services to parishioners to some degree, missionary work and day to day programming.

Why should any of that get a break?

Most charities actually operate inside buildings that pay property tax, why shouldn't churches?

No one is suggesting taking money retroactively from 10 years ago, just on a go-forward basis.

The tax bill for a tiny inner-City or rural church with 100 members need not be high, and if they can't afford an extra 10k a year, probably time to fold shop.

My concern is with the mega churches, large, palatial, offering no sense that the social good is a priority or that its tangential at best.

Let them foot a new 2M bill and reduce the pay for and number of clergy, let them sell-off the acreage, and charge for parking. They'll likely survive and won't be quite a leech-like after.

If we're going after money making tax exempt mooches, then let's go after the biggest, the n- finnn'-l. Literally billions change hands yearly. Churches don't hold a candle to those guys. You don't even have to attend, you can worship from the privacy of your own easy chair. Now that's entertainment.

**O3H** · July-06-18, 11:23 AM

It is sort of foolish having HUGE tracts of grass vacant
along with a parking lot that is vacant most of the week
in the middle of a neighborhood, city, etc. that IS NOT
paying into the concept of Property Tax in the USA.

**Canadian Visitor** · July-06-18, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

If we're going after money making tax exempt mooches, then let's go after the biggest, the n- finnn'-l. Literally billions change hands yearly. Churches don't hold a candle to those guys. You don't even have to attend, you can worship from the privacy of your own easy chair. Now that's entertainment.

No disagreement.

**Honky Tonk** · July-06-18, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

No disagreement.

I think we should be fair here and not mix everyone in the same pot. Yes, some Churches are over the top, others provide a necessity for their community. They set up shelters, distribute food and clothing, provide some much needed boundaries on one's behavior. Separating the "needy" churches from the clearly for profit ones is the issue. Hate to see someone with good intentions get hurt in the process.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-06-18, 01:20 PM

I don't have much problem with taxation of Churches, but I'll make the argument against taxation, since so far this thread is mostly a sharpening of knives against religion.

1) Churches are a positive force in our society, as non-governmental organizations that provide a safety net for those who fall through the often-byzntine rules of our gov't run social programs. We should encourage such activity.

2) Tax-exempt non-profits are very hard to start successfully. Adding a significant tax burden will discourage formation of non-profits that support community.

3) Its a mistake to say that churches don't pay taxes. They pay property taxes for any part of their operation that is unrelated to their non-profit mission.

4) All church employees pay income tax.

5) Churches are already under siege socially -- its not an appropriate time to further burden them.

All that said, I'd love to see a lot of non-profits and self-aggrandizing churches paying all taxes.

**O3H** · July-06-18, 01:20 PM

Go to church - join the illiteracy community action group

The NFL relinquished its position as a tax-exempt non-profit in 2015.
The NFL’s 32 teams already pay taxes on their profits,
as well as on player salaries and merchandise sales.

*One little part is tax-exempt - the NFL League Office.
The league office is the administrative and organizational arm of the NFL.
It is a trade association for the NFL clubs.

TAX the Churches - USA is financially bankrupt - $21 TRILLION dollars

**Bigdd** · July-06-18, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by O3H

Go to church - join the illiteracy community action group

The NFL relinquished its position as a tax-exempt non-profit in 2015.
The NFL’s 32 teams already pay taxes on their profits,
as well as on player salaries and merchandise sales.

*One little part is tax-exempt - the NFL League Office.
The league office is the administrative and organizational arm of the NFL.
It is a trade association for the NFL clubs.

TAX the Churches - USA is financially bankrupt - $21 TRILLION dollars

True,.. but the NFL league office records some pretty healthy profits,... like nearly $8 Billion a year.

Also,. the true debt number is well over $200 Trillion. The $21 Trillion number is just the amount we have already borrowed and are already paying interest on. The real number would include the money we don't have,..and that corrupt government officials have promised to give away to people who didn't earn it.

When you add together all that [[Medicare, Medicaid, SSI, SSD, Obamacare subsidies, etc, etc, etc),.. we are on the hook for well over $200 Trillion and counting.

**archfan** · July-07-18, 01:42 AM

So if churches pay taxes, does that legitimize their having a say in government policy?

**enio** · July-07-18, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by archfan

So if churches pay taxes, does that legitimize their having a say in government policy?

Current IRS Guidance on non-profits and politics, including lobbying.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/chariti...ign-activities

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

BTW, the Republican have already started to tax some non-profits. Colleges and universities are now subject to an excise tax on endowments.

**O3H** · July-07-18, 08:18 AM

Churches have always had a subversive say in politics.
..and that's a large part of why they should be taxed heavily.

**Bham1982** · July-07-18, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by enio

BTW, the Republican have already started to tax some non-profits. Colleges and universities are now subject to an excise tax on endowments.

But only colleges with high endowments and those not in red states [[due to a million targeted exceptions exempting Trumplandia in the idiotic new tax law). They want to punish the Ivies and other elite institutions because they pose an existential threat to their modern-day Jonestown cult.

The Republican party is essentially dead and is now the Cult of Trump.

Remember when Republicans were the executives and country club types and valued education, worldliness and knowledge? Remember when they were staunchly anti-Soviet, pro immigration and pro free trade? Seems like a million years ago.

**O3H** · July-08-18, 11:42 AM

WAY too much money wrapped up in Church and activities.
Government can not completely ignore this sector's finances.

For something that is based in belief, un-seen, un-verifiable,
a tremendous amount of physical "stuff" , time, & activity occurs.

The mayor has noted there are 1,100 free standing churches in Detroit.

**Zacha341** · July-08-18, 05:40 PM

^^^ Opinions vary, and there're churches not functioning as they should, but I make the distinction between churches running scams/ prosperity ministry and ethical Christian churches. Indeed the church community still provides a positive social, moral and values infrastructure -- and stability of families and individuals. While we live in a far more secular society now, many of us need only look back two-three generations to recall the value of the church community.

Healthy church community 'activities' in addition to service and biblical studies at some churches still include support for the needy, food services, financial help, dovetailing with local business providing community support, scholarship funding, youth activities and the like. 'Stuff' also includes support for women and children, and widows, supportive family service such as weddings, funerals, etc.