How far we’ve come...

[cmubryan]

I was doing some googling this morning and came across this video highlighting the [[what would turn out to be failed) attempt by Kimberly Clark to renovate the Book Cadillac in 2002. It’s amazing how far downtown has come when listening to these interviews and the talk of all of the abandonment.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6sm6RnlazgI

[Colombian Dan]

Yet the population continues to decline.... violence and murders out of control.... A public school district which is unable to attract families and students from the suburbs.... The abandonment has accelerated in nearly all the neighborhoods... Dan Gilbert along with his 10,000 hipster army is not evidence of a Detroit revival....

[313WX]

Yet the population continues to decline.... violence and murders out of control.... A public school district which is unable to attract families and students from the suburbs.... The abandonment has accelerated in nearly all the neighborhoods... Dan Gilbert along with his 10,000 hipster army is not evidence of a Detroit revival....

I'm really interested in seeing what the 2020 census shows.

That will be the real judge/jury as far as determining how far Detroit as a whole has [[or hasn't) come.

[renf]

Wait just a minute! The crime rate in Detroit has been declining steadily. The number of homicides last year was at a 50 year low. There is a new
public school district with dynamic leadership. Since 2013, there has been
a steady increase in the number of Detroit residents employed and their earnings have risen. Quite a few neighborhoods that were at some risk of decline after the subprime crisis show considerable signs of revitalization including West Village and the neighborhoods just to the west of Grand Boulevard near New Center and Hubbard Richard. Has the east waterfront or Belle Isle ever looked better than at present? What about the revitalization efforts underway in the Fitzgerald neighborhood?

[iheartthed]

Yet the population continues to decline.... violence and murders out of control.... A public school district which is unable to attract families and students from the suburbs.... The abandonment has accelerated in nearly all the neighborhoods... Dan Gilbert along with his 10,000 hipster army is not evidence of a Detroit revival....

This isn't true anymore. You can stop copying and pasting the only comment you have made since 2002.

[Colombian Dan]

This isn't true anymore. You can stop copying and pasting the only comment you have made since 2002.

Wearing rose colored glasses won't hide the facts. Detroit has been and still is one of America's most violent cities [[in the top 5). Sometimes it's difficult to face the truth and admit there is a problem. But the first step to recovery is to admit there is a problem.

[mwilbert]

Wearing rose colored glasses won't hide the facts. Detroit has been and still is one of America's most violent cities [[in the top 5). Sometimes it's difficult to face the truth and admit there is a problem. But the first step to recovery is to admit there is a problem.

Completely opaque glasses aren't useful either.

There is no contradiction between recognizing the real, serious problems that Detroit continues to have and recognizing the progress that has made over the past 10-15 years.

[401don]

Wearing rose colored glasses won't hide the facts. Detroit has been and still is one of America's most violent cities [[in the top 5). Sometimes it's difficult to face the truth and admit there is a problem. But the first step to recovery is to admit there is a problem.

Seems to me I've heard both Gilbert and Duggan state on many occasions the importance of improving the neighborhoods. Aside from their many neighborhoods initiatives, bringing more tax dollars to the city with downtown business and residential growth is only helping.

[Lowell]

Completely opaque glasses aren't useful either.

There is no contradiction between recognizing the real, serious problems that Detroit continues to have and recognizing the progress that has made over the past 10-15 years.

^Amen to that.

We are clearly in a two maybe three steps forward, one step back phase.

Consider this. Every single major building from downtown to new center that was abandoned and falling into ruin has been restored, is being, or has serious plans to be restored and repurposed. The final one, the Michigan Central, landed last week with the biggest bang yet.

Add to that several new construction projects including what will become the tallest building in Michigan.

To celebrate this dramatic and rapid turnabout is not to gloss over the severe challenges in many neighborhoods of Detroit. The city of Detroit cares for probably 80-90% of the region's impoverished, poorly educated and disabled peoples--an unfairly shared and costly burden--and is exploited with red-lined insurance rates.

But Detroit's heart is now sound, lifting our image, creating thousands of jobs and attracting new residents of means and knowledge who will fuel growth and enhance city revenues to where it has a chance to address the neighborhood problems.

It might be useful to revisit The Fabulous Ruins of Detroit tour that launched this site in 1997 to really appreciate how far we have come.

So let's take a moment for a high five, then roll up our sleeve and continue the job.

[Jimaz]

...Add to that several new construction projects including what will become the tallest building in Michigan....

Another leading indicator is the growing percentage of expensive construction equipment appearing that is brand new.

People don't make those kinds of investments unless they're expecting to get a lot of use out of it in the near future.

[iheartthed]

Wearing rose colored glasses won't hide the facts. Detroit has been and still is one of America's most violent cities [[in the top 5). Sometimes it's difficult to face the truth and admit there is a problem. But the first step to recovery is to admit there is a problem.

What you said was provably false. No rose-colored glasses needed to see that. Detroit's crime rate is lower today than it has been in decades. This is also true of most major American cities, but you'd have to understand the difference between relative and absolute values to understand why it matters.

[DetBill]

Wearing rose colored glasses won't hide the facts. Detroit has been and still is one of America's most violent cities [[in the top 5). Sometimes it's difficult to face the truth and admit there is a problem. But the first step to recovery is to admit there is a problem.

I have lived downtown and in the city since 1989, to not state Detroit still has huge obstacles to overcome would be nieve, however to minimize and not acknowledge the progress that has been made in Detroit, especially in the last five years, would be like living with blinders on.. There is a major change going on, both visually in development, in quality of services, and most importantly in attitudes of people, many are proud now of Detroit, and I often experience in my travels comments from people who say they hear good things now about Detroit and that they want to visit, then do...That is progress worth fighting to continue for

[iheartthed]

Dan Howes said it short and sweet:

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...sal/725775002/

Detroit is never going to be perfect, and it never was perfect, but to not recognize that the city is in the midst of the most promising recovery since the decline started 70 years ago is pretty astounding. You must be blind if you don't see it.

[kathy2trips]

While downtown's continued rise is encouraging, I can't help but worry about the neighborhoods.

For example: I know that my old stomping grounds near the architecturally marvelous Civic-Detroit Theater is literally disintegrating. I used to be enthralled by the neo-tudor charm of the area.

Conversely, while showing some friends where the Grande Ballroom is/was on Google Street View, I happened to divert onto a side street behind it. What beautiful, well kept homes! I'm sure this isn't the only example, but I worry that it's more the exception that the rule.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I hope I live long enough to see one, then two, then four neighborhoods come back. The corner stores, the neighborhood bars, the doctor's offices and the dry cleaners. Loft living is not for everyone, you know.

[Johnnny5]

The improvements downtown are beyond what even the most optimistic of us would have predicted just a few years ago. That said, I'm not sure if the momentum will continue or if this will end on a sour note. A decade of cheap credit has pushed investors into some unusual places and Detroit real estate is definitely one of them.

[corktownyuppie]

The improvements downtown are beyond what even the most optimistic of us would have predicted just a few years ago. That said, I'm not sure if the momentum will continue or if this will end on a sour note. A decade of cheap credit has pushed investors into some unusual places and Detroit real estate is definitely one of them.

I'd be a lot more concerned if Detroit real estate prices were abnormally high. Yes, they're abnormally high for Detroit's history, with the excuse historically being "yeah, it's a nice building, but it's Detroit."

But right now downtown prices are honestly pretty comparable with most city centers nationwide that have been re-developed, which is congruent with the improvements that you've referenced. And the quality of life downtown is at least somewhat comparable [[and sometimes better) than other city centers in the US -- especially when adjusted for price.

Plus it's not like SE Michigan didn't have the money, we've always had high end real estate in Birmingham and Royal Oak and Grosse Pointe and Ann Arbor, etc. The difference is that now some of those same people are now willing to pay similar prices 1/8 mile from Campus Martius.

I'll tell you where I *am* worried about a decline in the era of cheap credit. Bay Area [[San Francisco) and -- to a lesser extent -- NYC. I mean a 3-bdrm townhouse in SF could list for $5MM and that would be considered "normal". I have a feeling that might see some downward pressure as rates go up.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The city's population is a lagging indicator. The rate of decline has plummeted [[maybe even halted, as the census estimates are both estimates and use recent but not current data to make their assumptions). I think the stats will shortly reveal a modest but steady upward movement. And if car insurance rates were brought down, city income tax for residents abolished, and vouchers issued for all k-12 students in the city, the growth would be astounding.

The outlying neighborhoods of course still have their myriad problems, although I would argue the problems in them are more of a sociological nature, and not things directly related to the ups and downs of the city.

[softailrider]

While downtown's continued rise is encouraging, I can't help but worry about the neighborhoods.

For example: I know that my old stomping grounds near the architecturally marvelous Civic-Detroit Theater is literally disintegrating. I used to be enthralled by the neo-tudor charm of the area.

Conversely, while showing some friends where the Grande Ballroom is/was on Google Street View, I happened to divert onto a side street behind it. What beautiful, well kept homes! I'm sure this isn't the only example, but I worry that it's more the exception that the rule.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I hope I live long enough to see one, then two, then four neighborhoods come back. The corner stores, the neighborhood bars, the doctor's offices and the dry cleaners. Loft living is not for everyone, you know.

You’re last paragraph really hits home. The neighborhood business districts are long gone and don’t show too many signs of a return. I would think that running a business in a neighborhood area would be very difficult. The neighborhoods themselves do show some signs of a revival in a few areas. As Lowell mentioned, insurance rates, property and automobile, living anywhere in Detroit are very high, in a lot of cases, too high to purchase. But what do I know? I’ve only been working in the city for 39 years.

[DetroitSoldier]

I remember when the Hilton Garden Inn opened in 2004, it was said to be a coup to have a new hotel in the downtown area. Amazing how far we have come... now with at least 6 new hotels in the 2017-2019 timeframe.

[Richard]

I kinda think there is a silver lining in the whole Detroit being late in the game.

It can look at what happened in other cites and apply the best parts moving forward,the two biggest being rebuilding the core while ignoring the neighborhoods and not incorporating affordable housing in the process.

It has been proven,no matter how pretty you make the downtown core unless you do the same with the surrounding supportive neighborhoods,the core will reach a point of stalling,it cannot survive as a nucleus.

It is clear that the current mayor and players understand this and are taking positive steps to address this,it may not be noticeable on the ground but the city is really setting a positive blueprint for the rest of the country,and the residents are showing the rest of the country what Americans are all about,you should be proud of that.

There was a thread awhile back where somebody asked where was the best place in Detroit to invest long term,my reply was anywhere, because the dirt has the value and all of those places that one looks at today and says never going to happen,as you are finding out,will happen.

Not as fast as some would prefer,understandably,but steps at a time done the right way will keep the past from repeating itself.

[Meddle]

You’re last paragraph really hits home. The neighborhood business districts are long gone and don’t show too many signs of a return. I would think that running a business in a neighborhood area would be very difficult.

I keep thinking .. show me some of this turnaround along roads like Meyers or Fenkell and maybe I'll begin to believe it's not a fluke.

[Meddle]

As Lowell mentioned, insurance rates, property and automobile, living anywhere in Detroit are very high, in a lot of cases, too high to purchase.

I lived in an odd situation on the far west side. My address was Detroit and I paid city income and property taxes. But my Zip Code was out of a suburban Post Office and that's what the insurance companies used at the time to determine rates. My home and auto rates reflected that quite nicely.

[Luke09]

I'm really interested in seeing what the 2020 census shows.

That will be the real judge/jury as far as determining how far Detroit as a whole has [[or hasn't) come.

No doubt that population growth would be a good sign, but I believe there are more important things to measure. Things such as poverty, unemployment, crime and high school dropout rates are more important than population growth. It's better to improve life in Detroit than the number of people living in Detroit. The reason people left Detroit isn't because it wasn't a big enough city, it's been more about quality of life. If the population drops by 50k in 2020 and all of those other items improve, then i would say things are getting better.

[ABetterDetroit]

No doubt that population growth would be a good sign, but I believe there are more important things to measure. Things such as poverty, unemployment, crime and high school dropout rates are more important than population growth. It's better to improve life in Detroit than the number of people living in Detroit. The reason people left Detroit isn't because it wasn't a big enough city, it's been more about quality of life. If the population drops by 50k in 2020 and all of those other items improve, then i would say things are getting better.

I agree that the above are far more important than population numbers.

Raise the per capita income enough and the population problem takes care of itself and makes many other problems far easier to negotiate.

Welome to the board Luke09

[313WX]

No doubt that population growth would be a good sign, but I believe there are more important things to measure. Things such as poverty, unemployment, crime and high school dropout rates are more important than population growth. It's better to improve life in Detroit than the number of people living in Detroit. The reason people left Detroit isn't because it wasn't a big enough city, it's been more about quality of life. If the population drops by 50k in 2020 and all of those other items improve, then i would say things are getting better.

If you're who's ok living in a small and stagnant/shrinking city, that's definitely one way to look at it.

I can see Detroit eventually becoming a decent [[but nothing special) city of 300,000 to 400,000 to live in. There's nothing wrong to that in/of itself.