Duggan: Underground railway tunnel way of future for Detroit Metro

[Detroit Stylin]

"Mayor Mike Duggan said Tuesday that connecting the Detroit Metropolitan Airport to a railway could happen in the future ... if it's underground.

"Duggan said at the Downtown Detroit Partnership summer stakeholder meeting that airplane runways make such a link unfeasible above ground. Connecting to the airport underground, however, might be possible in light of Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk's work in building underground transportation tunnels in Los Angeles.

"As soon as I hear from the mayor of Los Angeles that this thing really works, then we're going to be pursuing it," Duggan said during a conversation with DPP CEO Eric Larson on stage at the Gem and Century Theatre."

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2018/06/12/mayor-mike-duggan-elon-musk-underground-railway-tunnel-detroit-metropolitan-airport/695486002/

With this and the 62% approval to put improved transit on the ballot in November seems like people are growing up finally in this region.

http://www.dbusiness.com/daily-news/...thNEk.facebook

[Jason]

I had mixed feelings when I saw that. It's great that he's serious about significant transit investments, but it's disappointing that he's talking about the hyperloop stuff which imo is a bright shiny object.

The hyperloop is a more novel and less practical version of a maglev. Maglevs use magnets to hold the trains in the air, and to move. Using magnets to keep the train in the air comes with a bunch of expensive practical problems and it's the main reason maglevs never really took off. The other limiting factor to maglevs [[and anything that goes really fast) is air resistance, which maglevs use aerodynamics to overcome. The hyperloop tries do dodge these two issues by putting the whole thing in a vacuum tube which is even more expensive and problematic than what maglevs do.

Ironically we already have the more pragmatic version of the hyperloop/maglev. The People Mover technology literally started as a project to make a maglev product that was affordable and practical for urban transit systems.

It uses magnets to move the train forwards and backwards and to brake [[plus traditional emergency brakes) just like a maglev does. It uses steel wheels on tracks in order to avoid the maglev's problems. It uses a few innovations to make it quieter than conventional rail.

The People Mover's linear induction motors [[magnets) have advantages over traditional motors. They're smaller, which reduces the height of the trains, and they can climb steeper slopes, which makes grade separating cheaper and routes more flexible [[cheaper) than traditional rail. The hyperloop negates these advantages by forcing everything into very expensive precision engineered vacuum tunnels.


Due to the nature of transit projects it's hard to get generic costs. However, for their Surrey transit project, Vancouver included two Skytrain [[People Mover) alternatives in their study [["Surrey Rapid Transit Study Phase 2 Alternatives Evaluation"), and a few relevant numbers can be deduced from it.

It would cost $90 million per mile of elevated guideway above an avenue. Running it on the ground [[in an existing rail right of way or highway median) would cost dramatically less, but idk exactly how much. This is the biggest factor.

Each station would cost about $22 million, for 80 meter [[6 car trains) platforms. Current DPM stations are 25 meters [[2 car trains). Shorter platforms are proportionally cheaper, but shorter trains carry less people.

Each train car would cost about $3.5 million. This price is for larger 16.7 m cars, and we would want shorter [[~12.7 m) cars to fit the turning radius of the current loop. The shorter cars would be cheaper individually but we'd need more of them. 2 car trains running every 4 minutes would require 8 trains per mile. Many recent systems use the shorter cars for the benefit of tighter turning radii, so getting them shouldn't be a problem.

A new operations/maintenance center would be $0.5 million per vehicle.


There are two main options for connecting to the current loop. In one option, the new line would touch, but not go through the loop. A new station would serve both lines, and you'd make a transfer. The other option is for the trains from the new line to go through the current loop. This would either limit the train length on the new line to two cars [[the size of our existing platforms) or our existing platforms would need to be lengthened to accept longer trains. In the loop a train would come every 2 minutes, with every other train going to the airport. The maximum headway of the system is 1.5 minutes so that's fine.


All in all expanding the People Mover to the airport would cost over a billion dollars, which is a ton. But it's waaaaaaaaaaay less than building a subway.

[Dexlin]

Yeah, I'm with Jason on this one. I like that he's dreaming big, but we'd be better off even just thinking more conventionally. I'm with him that in the long run - at least in the immediate vicinity of the airport - that it'd be a smarter long-term investment to go underground and stretching something out there above-ground. But, really, even an underground light rail line would be enough; doesn't even have to be heavy rail, really. And, yeah, he can spare me the hyperloop-esqe stuff.

BTW, Stylin', I wish that support for transit meant anything. It's exactly and precisely because the millage would likely pass if it reached the ballot this year that Macomb and Oakland counties are trying - and will likely be successful in - keeping the millage off the ballot. In a fair world, the board members would vote their consciences. That is why there was a board created in the first place, because what's the use if the county execs can basically call a veto through their members? But, that's looking exactly like what will happen. An easy way to fix this would be to make the seats on the board elected by popular vote within their respective counties, which would disconnect its from the obvious undo influence of the county execs that you're seeing, here.

[ndavies]

Chicago Is going to announce that Musk's Boring company is going to build a high speed system from Downtown to the airport. The boring company is paying for it. A similar deal was probably floated to Duggan. It looks like an underground road with automated Tesla designed vans on it.

https://gizmodo.com/elon-musks-borin....10gpzidjg1xce

[masterblaster]

The hyperloop is a more novel and less practical version of a maglev. Maglevs use magnets to hold the trains in the air, and to move.

Ironically we already have the more pragmatic version of the hyperloop/maglev. The People Mover technology literally started as a project to make a maglev product that was affordable and practical for urban transit systems.

It uses magnets to move the train forwards and backwards and to brake [[plus traditional emergency brakes) just like a maglev does. It uses steel wheels on tracks in order to avoid the maglev's problems. It uses a few innovations to make it quieter than conventional rail.

The People Mover's linear induction motors [[magnets) have advantages over traditional motors. They're smaller, which reduces the height of the trains, and they can climb steeper slopes, which makes grade separating cheaper and routes more flexible [[cheaper) than traditional rail. The hyperloop negates these advantages by forcing everything into very expensive precision engineered vacuum tunnels.


Due to the nature of transit projects it's hard to get generic costs. However, for their Surrey transit project, Vancouver included two Skytrain [[People Mover) alternatives in their study [["Surrey Rapid Transit Study Phase 2 Alternatives Evaluation"), and a few relevant numbers can be deduced from it.

It would cost $90 million per mile of elevated guideway above an avenue. Running it on the ground [[in an existing rail right of way or highway median) would cost dramatically less, but idk exactly how much. This is the biggest factor.


All in all expanding the People Mover to the airport would cost over a billion dollars, which is a ton. But it's waaaaaaaaaaay less than building a subway.

I was under the impression that Duggan was just considering Elon Musk's boring technology for the Downtown-Airport train, not the maglev technology or Tesla vehicles. Traditional cut-and-cover subway is very costly and the logistics of trying to build a subway through an airport might be daunting, so this boring technology could cost alot less than traditional subway construction methods and not be so disruptive to airport operations.

Concerning extending the PeopleMover, I don't think that is necessary because we already have the train tracks between Detroit and DTW and they are under the control of the state. All that needs to be done is build a rail to branch off of the Detroit-Ann Arbor rail into the airport, which is a 4-5 mile distance. [[There is actually an existing rail line that does this, just west of the airport)

Also, you mentioned the possibility of the PeopleMover running on the surface in a roadway median. From what I read, it is against regulations for a surface-running rail line to be fully automatic, because it would not able to stop to prevent an accident if a car crossed its path, for instance when a car is attempting to do a "Michigan Left" turn and ignores flashing lights or whatever.

[JBMcB]

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

[iheartthed]

I had mixed feelings when I saw that. It's great that he's serious about significant transit investments, but it's disappointing that he's talking about the hyperloop stuff which imo is a bright shiny object.

Duggan isn't suggesting a hyperloop. He wants Musk to prove that the new tunnel boring technology has significantly cut the costs of tunneling for transit projects.

[iheartthed]

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

This isn't about a subway. It's about connecting the airport terminals to a potential commuter rail line.

[Bham1982]

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

If only it cost so little. Subway station renovations these days often cost many hundreds of millions.

If you built a subway from downtown Detroit to Metro Airport, I doubt you could get it done for less than $10 billion [[and that's assuming some degree of surface running).

[Atticus]

Remember, it is Elon Musk though. If you are skeptical or question any of the logistics associated with Musk’s proposals, you have to turn in your liberal card.

[ABetterDetroit]

Before we spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a subway, can we make the DDOT bus system reliable first? People still need to get to work.

Gosh No.

Schools can’t be helped, the homicide rate is what it is and no matter how many people lose their homes to unpaid property taxes in Detroit the people who live in the downtowns of Ann Arbor and the D want to take a train to the airport God Dammit so Jack the Property taxes right now!!!

Crazy Liberals will screw people over to get what they want for themselves just as fast as crazy conservatives.

I honestly thought Duggan had his eye on the ball pretty good until this one.

Maybe he should get Coleman II in there right quick to explain how easy it will be to get that gondola thingy sky tracking on its way taking everyone everywhere their heart desires...

[iheartthed]

Gosh No.

Schools can’t be helped, the homicide rate is what it is and no matter how many people lose their homes to unpaid property taxes in Detroit the people who live in the downtowns of Ann Arbor and the D want to take a train to the airport God Dammit so Jack the Property taxes right now!!!

Crazy Liberals will screw people over to get what they want for themselves just as fast as crazy conservatives.

I honestly thought Duggan had his eye on the ball pretty good until this one.

Maybe he should get Coleman II in there right quick to explain how easy it will be to get that gondola thingy sky tracking on its way taking everyone everywhere their heart desires...

Yet, nobody complains about spending a billion dollars adding a lane to I-75 in Oakland County that isn't needed at all.

[3WC]

iheartthed: I am hereby complaining about LBP's plan to spend a billion dollars on a new lane for I-75. Idiocy. I believe he's become senile. He must have delusions of being Robert Moses. Fix I-75, but a new lane, NO!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re the airport: I have literally travelled through Detroit Metro HUNDREDS of times over the past 50 years. Probably 20 roundtrips a year frequently.

I believe there are relatively very few Detroiters who travel to and from Metro. Most business travelers leave on early morning flights and return on evening flights, to and from home. I'm sure there are many travelers from Macomb County that pass through Detroit on their way to Metro but they're not going to stop halfway, in Detroit, to catch a train.

There hundreds of flights a day out of Metro and there would be relatively few trains, maybe one every two hours.

It's true that there are regularly scheduled, fast trains between ORD and downtown Chicago, but there are probable a million people living in downtown Chicago. Those trains run every half hour or so and run above-ground, between east and westbound freeways. Furthermore, they were designed and built to carry commuters, not specifically airport passengers, a minority of the passengers. I don't see a whole lot of Detroit commuters using trains; they have passenger train service from Oakland County and have for years [[if they still do) and it would be interesting to see what the ridership is there. Those trains ran in the mornings and afternoons I recall and the terminus was close to the Ren Cen I believe. I know a lot of people who work downtown and live in Oakland County and I don't know one who has ever commuted by train.

Ain't going to happen. If there was a need somebody would have done it.

[iheartthed]

It's true that there are regularly scheduled, fast trains between ORD and downtown Chicago, but there are probable a million people living in downtown Chicago. Those trains run every half hour or so and run above-ground, between east and westbound freeways.

Duggan is trying to address a specific problem which was not well described in the article. Due to the way DTW is built, if there were to ever be a commuter rail service between Ann Arbor and Detroit, the only way to connect to the actual airport terminals would be to build a tunnel from the tracks to the terminals [[he is NOT talking about building a subway from the airport to downtown Detroit).

The tunnel would need to go under the runways. In other cities, the connection between airport terminals and regional railways is sometimes done using automated trains running on elevated tracks, similar to Detroit's PeopleMover. This would not be an option for Metro because the elevated tracks would have to go over the runways to reach the terminals.

[Don K]

Yet, nobody complains about spending a billion dollars adding a lane to I-75 in Oakland County that isn't needed at all.

This. There's always a few billion sitting around for bigger highways that will do nothing to relieve congestion. I really wish there was some way for those of us in the more densely-populated parts of the Metro to veto wasteful highway projects the way the residents of Macomb and Outer Oakland have an effective veto over transit expansion.

I consider myself a good liberal, and yet I'm skeptical of St. Elon and his various projects, so I guess I'll have to turn in my card at the nearest recycling center. In any event, his proposals for forms of personal rapid transit seem designed to cater to the desire of upper-middle-class whites not to have to rub elbows with the lower sorts [[white as well as minorities), as they would have to do using regular transit, and so hardly seem liberal or progressive to me.

[Meddle]

Post 13 is why DTW needs to be DOWNsized and much of the traffic moved to the east side, whether it be Selfridge or further out towards Port Huron. Which might not be a bad idea given I-69 being groomed for a Mexico to Canada throughway.

[Bham1982]

Post 13 is why DTW needs to be DOWNsized and much of the traffic moved to the east side, whether it be Selfridge or further out towards Port Huron. Which might not be a bad idea given I-69 being groomed for a Mexico to Canada throughway.

So you want to further marginalize a half-empty DTW and spend a cool $10 billion or so for another intl airport at Selfridge or Port Huron of all places [[alongside widened 94, M-59 extension, etc.)? Sounds like a plan...

[Meddle]

A quick measure on a map shows the distances from I-94/I-696 interchange to:

DTW, 39 miles
St Clair County Airport, 25 miles [[and a MUCH less chaotic drive)

My feeling is that any big bucks would be better spent on a St. Clair County option. I'm guessing it would be a better drive from Oakland County too, even with any I-696 headaches.

[Meddle]

Sounds like a plan...

Absolutely. Move some of the money benefits to another area NOT monopolized by one airline and a corrupt county government.

[JBMcB]

This isn't about a subway. It's about connecting the airport terminals to a potential commuter rail line.

That's fine. Interesting idea. The original question stands, though.

[Bham1982]

A quick measure on a map shows the distances from I-94/I-696 interchange to:

DTW, 39 miles
St Clair County Airport, 25 miles [[and a MUCH less chaotic drive)

Why would you measure DTW's relative worth by its distance to St. Clair Shores of all places? That's basically Siberia in the context of Metro Detroit and activity nodes.

[Meddle]

Why would you measure DTW's relative worth by its distance to St. Clair Shores of all places? That's basically Siberia in the context of Metro Detroit and activity nodes.

You're being short sighted. Once I-69 is completed, it will be a major [[even more than it is now) transportation international crossing. It's ripe for growth and land is probably cheap. And it's closer to the east side and more accessible. And of course the Great Lakes shipping traffic is right there.

The future may be Port Huron more than Romulus.

There is also a Federal Courthouse there that could be expanded to handle cases arising from that crossing, airport, etc.

http://www.miept.uscourts.gov/index....ationPortHuron

[professorscott]

I was under the impression that Duggan was just considering Elon Musk's boring technology for the Downtown-Airport train, not the maglev technology or Tesla vehicles. Traditional cut-and-cover subway is very costly and the logistics of trying to build a subway through an airport might be daunting, so this boring technology could cost alot less than traditional subway construction methods and not be so disruptive to airport operations.

I completely agree. Boring is the best and cheapest way to get the necessary space to operate trains; once you have the space, you can build for any kind of train whatever.

Concerning extending the PeopleMover, I don't think that is necessary...

Not necessary and not possible. The technology used to build the DPM is archaic and no longer manufactured by anybody anywhere, which is the risk you take when you go edgy.

[Bham1982]

You're being short sighted. Once I-69 is completed, it will be a major [[even more than it is now) transportation international crossing. It's ripe for growth and land is probably cheap. And it's closer to the east side and more accessible. And of course the Great Lakes shipping traffic is right there.

The future may be Port Huron more than Romulus.

There is also a Federal Courthouse there that could be expanded to handle cases arising from that crossing, airport, etc.

http://www.miept.uscourts.gov/index....ationPortHuron

We should relocate one of the larger airports on the planet to Port Huron of all places because of the possibility of a highway getting some ceremonial trade designation, because of "Great Lakes shipping traffic" and because there's a courthouse. Uh-huh.

Let me guess, you want a 60 mile subway to downtown too? As long as we're being strategic with scarce local resources, why not?

I vote for Bad Axe. They have Great Lakes traffic, courts and highways too. And then the subway can be twice as long.

[Jason]

I was under the impression that Duggan was just considering Elon Musk's boring technology for the Downtown-Airport train, not the maglev technology or Tesla vehicles.

No you're right I didn't read closely enough. Musk triggers me.

Concerning extending the PeopleMover, I don't think that is necessary because we already have the train tracks between Detroit and DTW and they are under the control of the state. All that needs to be done is build a rail to branch off of the Detroit-Ann Arbor rail into the airport, which is a 4-5 mile distance. [[There is actually an existing rail line that does this, just west of the airport)

That's true but I don't think a line from the airport to downtown with a park and ride in Melvindale or something is going to get used much. It's a very specific trip. And people want high frequencies, but airports don't have peak hours, so an automated system works well for that.

My thought is a line that starts downtown, goes over Michigan Avenue/Ford Road [[with stops roughly every mile) to Dearborn, where it would squiggle through the Fairlane area, before taking Oakwood to I-94. Once on 94 it would quickly go to the airport with only one or two stops. The Fairlane/West Dearborn area has over 30,000 jobs, as well as shopping, hotels, colleges [[12,000 students), tourist destinations [[1.8 million per year), and still has tons of leftover space for densification. In between Fairlane and downtown are some surprisingly dense residential areas and potential for more development.

So to me it's more like Detroit to Dearborn is a strong transit route, and going all the way to the airport is an added bonus.

Also, you mentioned the possibility of the PeopleMover running on the surface in a roadway median. From what I read, it is against regulations for a surface-running rail line to be fully automatic...

I was talking about the median of 94 which is already grade separated.