US-Canada Relations - Let's pull together, not apart

[admin]

Note: Posts in this thread regarding the Kim-Trump summit have been moved to the thread: In the mean time: North Korea....

[Onthe405]

See what happens when we place emotions over reasoning when dealing with issues,the thread is exactly that,off and on discussing the outcome of knee jerk reactions and words spoken out of emotion that do not lead to solutions and the potential ramifications of.

Thank You, Richard

In this one statement, you've distilled the essence of Donald Trump's character--and the single most important reason he is completely unqualified and incompetent as President.

He self-admittedly makes his decisions based on "gut", which is simply a patriarchal word for the more maternal-sounding word "feeling".

Different words, but they are one in the same: reactionary emotion, rather than facts & reason. There isn't enough room in this thread to outline the examples where Trump has taken an in-the-moment stance on an issue or individual, only to arbitrarily reverse it hours or days later---frequently accompanied by extraordinary vitriol and no reasonable explanation. One is Trump's super-duper best friend and ally--until he subjectively decides you're not anymore.

An overly emotional temperament might be an entertaining characteristic for a reality-TV star. However, "whimsical" is not a trait of strong, effective leaders.

On topic: as Americans, we should all be proud that one of our Presidents finally had the guts to stand up to Canada:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.bc73a53a44ef

[O3H]

Poutine at the metro Detroit Tim Hortons please
-- not just in Windsor, okay

[Richard]

Thank You, Richard

In this one statement, you've distilled the essence of Donald Trump's character--and the single most important reason he is completely unqualified and incompetent as President.

He self-admittedly makes his decisions based on "gut", which is simply a patriarchal word for the more maternal-sounding word "feeling".

Different words, but they are one in the same: reactionary emotion, rather than facts & reason. There isn't enough room in this thread to outline the examples where Trump has taken an in-the-moment stance on an issue or individual, only to arbitrarily reverse it hours or days later---frequently accompanied by extraordinary vitriol and no reasonable explanation. One is Trump's super-duper best friend and ally--until he subjectively decides you're not anymore.

An overly emotional temperament might be an entertaining characteristic for a reality-TV star. However, "whimsical" is not a trait of strong, effective leaders.

On topic: as Americans, we should all be proud that one of our Presidents finally had the guts to stand up to Canada:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.bc73a53a44ef

Then there is this from the same publication,

Trudeau has, in fact, all but bragged about instigating the latest conflict, stating prior to the Quebec summit that the “reason why Donald Trump continues to write tweets on dairy products and Canada — it’s because I’ve told him many times: ‘No, he won’t touch, we won’t touch our supply management system.” This is a curious calculation, both as foreign policy and domestic politics.


The consequences of this long-standing approach, which has always been grounded in economically regressive nationalism and politics, will now be felt. For centuries, much of Canadian policymaking has been justified on the grounds that maintaining sovereignty from the United States is the highest good. It works fine — so long as the United States never feels the need to indulge in a bit of pompous sovereignty of its own.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8502410fe483

So it is okay for one country to practice nationalism but not another?

But once again people are angry about doing trade with certain country's because of human rights issues,as mentioned in the link provided in the quote but we as Americans have no problem sending billions to China,until we stop that, nobody can take the higher moral ground or use that as a talking point because we are supporting the exact thing we claim to despise.

[Don K]

What is it with Trump and Canada? My understanding is that, excluding oil we have a trade surplus with them. And the oil thing is purely an artifact of the fact they are the closest source of the oil we need to satisfy our insatiable craving for monster pickups, Suburbans, and Expeditions. We even have a surplus in trade of dairy goods. I'm thinking that the 280% dairy tariff he mentioned is a figment of his imagination based on something Navarro told him one day.

Now I'll head to German cars. Was he almost run over by a Beetle when he was a kid? Does he have faded memories of fleets of Cadillacs carrying rich folks in NYC in the 1950s? Cadillac, Lincoln, and Chrysler lost the luxury market to MB, BMW, and Audi fair and square. Affluent Americans decided the Germans delivered the goods when the American manufacturers didn't.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Now I'll head to German cars. Was he almost run over by a Beetle when he was a kid? Does he have faded memories of fleets of Cadillacs carrying rich folks in NYC in the 1950s? Cadillac, Lincoln, and Chrysler lost the luxury market to MB, BMW, and Audi fair and square. Affluent Americans decided the Germans delivered the goods when the American manufacturers didn't.

The proof is in the pudding. Chrysler is discontinuing the 300, Lincoln sales are morbid, even after they restructured their whole line of vehicles. Cadillac sales have declined as well, even though they've always outsold Lincoln. The Germans and Japanese luxury cars are just better, and I hate to say that.

[Richard]

The dairy situation seems pretty much a reality and not a figment of the current presidents figment of his imagination.

Our dairy situation has its roots put in place with the Roosevelt administration.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PD...jicaSNC69WfII-

The thing with NAFTA is that outside of Michigan there is a lot of people that feel it impacted their lives in a negititive way
and have bad memories of when it was enacted,The currant president is not the only president to use it as a review point.

The currant president promised while campaigning to address it,he is doing what he promised to do.

He seems to like to use physiological warfare,NAFTA is only the first step there are other countries that are even more protective when it comes to trade that are going to be addressed,if he is willing to go to the mat against what some call our closest friend and allies what is the mindset going to be going up against the next target.

He plays hardball out of the gate to set a negotiating point,no difference when we sell something,you list it for $100 then somebody offers their price,you have to start somewhere and people are not happy where it is at now so that does not make a starting point.

Now some are going to say,but Trump is an ass and so is Richard because he supports him,take Trump out of the equation and tell me what I posted that is incorrect,you dealing with emotions in a game that is strictly business and politics.

[Richard]

The proof is in the pudding. Chrysler is discontinuing the 300, Lincoln sales are morbid, even after they restructured their whole line of vehicles. Cadillac sales have declined as well, even though they've always outsold Lincoln. The Germans and Japanese luxury cars are just better, and I hate to say that.

The south is not as conservative as the north,when Mercedes started production here the base model 4 door sedan became a dime a dozen,given a choice most preferred a Mercedes over the Chevrolet Caviler.

[Bham1982]

Cadillac, Lincoln, and Chrysler lost the luxury market to MB, BMW, and Audi fair and square. Affluent Americans decided the Germans delivered the goods when the American manufacturers didn't.

You see tons of Cadillacs and Lincolns locally, and they're good cars, but in the major coastal cities, you barely see them. Go to NYC or LA and try and find these cars. You'll see 100 Audis before you see an MKZ.

If there were no employee A plans, and if paychecks didn't come from Big Three, I wonder how many people in Metro Detroit would automatically buy American.

[Canadian Visitor]

Now some are going to say,but Trump is an ass and so is Richard because he supports him,take Trump out of the equation and tell me what I posted that is incorrect,you dealing with emotions in a game that is strictly business and politics.

As established earlier, the US dairy industry is heavily subsidized.

So the first objection is the pot calling the kettle black.

If the United States would like more open access to the Canadian dairy market you will need to remove your subsidies, since we don't provide subsidies to our dairy industry. We instead protect them from those that do.

If you remove your subsidies, your cost of milk will rise to $6 per gallon, more than double the current price.

How will the typical American voter react? What about the dairy farmer when sales go through the floor?

If you instantly grasp why it won't happen, that at most a partial subsidy reduction will be considered, then you've instantly grasped why Canada's supply management system isn't going anywhere.

***

Separately, the E-U and Canada signed a free trade deal.

As part of those negotiations, the E-U wanted improved access to the Canadian dairy market, particularly for its cheeses.

At no time did EU trade negotiators or politicians call Canada's leadership weak or backstabbing.

They somehow managed to simply, politely insist they needed a few 'gains' to sell the deal on their end.

Like the United States, dairy in the E-U is heavily subsidized.

Canada was not going to open the floodgates.

But a series of compromises were worked out.

Canada's beef industry is vastly more competitive than Europe's.

Europe has restricted access to their market, in part, on the pretense that Canada allows hormones in beef cattle [[like the U.S.)

Canada obtained a substantial new access to the EU for beef, on the condition we create a stream of hormone-free, traceable beef.

The E-U landed a doubling of the amount of cheese they can export to Canada tariff free.

That's how give and take works. Win-Win. No insults needed.

In the case of dairy, the US permits hormones in dairy cattle, which Canadians will not accept

But a large part of your industry is also hormone-free.

So the access agreed to, at some point, will be for a traceable, hormone-free dairy.

While the United States will have to offer up an off-set, soft-wood lumber anyone?

Regardless, because the US is unlikely to go subsidy free or anywhere close [[you realize your government actually has a 'reserve' of American cheese to stabilize prices.....odd how that supply management works. )..

Canada's supply management won't be on the table. What will be is a quota of US dairy that can be exported tariff-free, subject to the hormone-rule above.

Everyone here knows this.

The President can obtain gains by being polite, rather than boorish.

[canuck]

As established earlier, the US dairy industry is heavily subsidized.

So the first objection is the pot calling the kettle black.

If the United States would like more open access to the Canadian dairy market you will need to remove your subsidies, since we don't provide subsidies to our dairy industry. We instead protect them from those that do.

If you remove your subsidies, your cost of milk will rise to $6 per gallon, more than double the current price.

How will the typical American voter react? What about the dairy farmer when sales go through the floor?

If you instantly grasp why it won't happen, that at most a partial subsidy reduction will be considered, then you've instantly grasped why Canada's supply management system isn't going anywhere.

***

Separately, the E-U and Canada signed a free trade deal.

As part of those negotiations, the E-U wanted improved access to the Canadian dairy market, particularly for its cheeses.

At no time did EU trade negotiators or politicians call Canada's leadership weak or backstabbing.

They somehow managed to simply, politely insist they needed a few 'gains' to sell the deal on their end.

Like the United States, dairy in the E-U is heavily subsidized.

Canada was not going to open the floodgates.

But a series of compromises were worked out.

Canada's beef industry is vastly more competitive than Europe's.

Europe has restricted access to their market, in part, on the pretense that Canada allows hormones in beef cattle [[like the U.S.)

Canada obtained a substantial new access to the EU for beef, on the condition we create a stream of hormone-free, traceable beef.

The E-U landed a doubling of the amount of cheese they can export to Canada tariff free.

That's how give and take works. Win-Win. No insults needed.

In the case of dairy, the US permits hormones in dairy cattle, which Canadians will not accept

But a large part of your industry is also hormone-free.

So the access agreed to, at some point, will be for a traceable, hormone-free dairy.

While the United States will have to offer up an off-set, soft-wood lumber anyone?

Regardless, because the US is unlikely to go subsidy free or anywhere close [[you realize your government actually has a 'reserve' of American cheese to stabilize prices.....odd how that supply management works. )..

Canada's supply management won't be on the table. What will be is a quota of US dairy that can be exported tariff-free, subject to the hormone-rule above.

Everyone here knows this.

The President can obtain gains by being polite, rather than boorish.

Thank you for blowing the Breitbart soap bubble.

[Richard]

Thank you for blowing the Breitbart soap bubble.

I do not think Breitbart was around when Roosevelt was in office,and if one actually reads the link I provided they will see that it was not produced by Breitbart.

On a personal level,I do not think I have even read anything written by briebart who ever he or she is,nice try though.

I guess in today's world you would now qualify for a participation trophy,I am not sure what it would be,maybe a block of American cheese,who knows.

Maybe the dairy subsidies center around providing those less fortunate a basic and healthy food group at an affordable rate so they do not have to cross the border in order to stay healthy.

At anyrate the dairy council reports milk consumption is down 40% and falling,it appears that the younger generation does not go for the milk and cereal for breakfast anymore.

So in the supply and demand aspect it usually is not standard practice to raise prices on slow moving products.

[aj3647]

There's a burgeoning movement in Canada to boycott U.S.-made products and travel to the United States.

http://thehill.com/policy/internatio...p-over-tariffs

[Richard]

There's a burgeoning movement in Canada to boycott U.S.-made products and travel to the United States.

http://thehill.com/policy/internatio...p-over-tariffs

Cool Canadas version of MCGA,they should always be in support of Canadians buying Canadian goods.

How exactly does one boycott Hershey when some of the plants are in Mexico,so they are boycotting Mexico also,they are a little late to that party because Americans have already been boycotting them for years.


In one of the tweets

A Canadian patriot’s guide to shopping during a Canada-U.S. trade war -

But had a problem with the whole buy American aspect?

I think every country should be self supporting takeing care of and supporting their own first and fair trade on the excess.

But anyrate Hershey stock did not take a nose dive on the news so the impact apparently will have little effect.

They can boycott Florida oranges,but the oranges are not even in Floridas top 20 export items to Canada,most of the trade between Canada and Florida has actually decreased as much as 25% in the last year.

With the exception of air conditioners,summer is here,of course nobody is going to boycott air conditioning and the winter is a bit chilly up there from what I hear,good luck telling snowbirds to chill out.

Florida exports to Canada in 2017 was 235 million but imports from were 965 million.With 423 million in oil,the offshore drilling guys just got a big boost of justification.

You really want to go down that road?

It sounds good fluff wise but really no teeth,but kudos on embracing the Trump movement of MCGA.

Why should Canadians supporting their fellow Canadians be a novel idea and used as a tool of retribution,what is wrong with that picture?

[aj3647]

I read much of the opposition to Trump as knee-jerk. The NK summit is being widely panned. But it is, after all, exactly what the left has been asking for. Dialogue, not war.

Correction: The "Left" wants serious diplomacy. And it should be what you want to. Singapore wasn't real diplomacy, it was a manufactured show for the cameras. Examples:

- Trump, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, did not prepare for the meeting. He openly bragged about this, like it's something to be proud of. Yeah, this is the kind of shit you just want to show up and wing it.
- Trump and Kim's meeting lasted roughly 45 minutes. 45 fucking minutes. But yeah, I'm sure there was some serious diplomacy going on. This meeting was so important that Trump flew halfway around the world to talk to this guy for less than an hour? Guess he had to get back to tweeting and watching Fox & Friends instead.

This was a circle jerk for the cameras. Kim got the greatest propaganda coup in North Korean history and Trump got a manufactured "win" he could sell to the base. Meanwhile, North Korea will still have its nukes 5 years from now, guaran-fucking-teed.

Let us know when there's real dialogue instead of handshakes and "how do you dos" for the camera.

Parking nuclear warheads 90 miles off of our coast in the middle of a cold war where drop duck and cover was standard procedure in our schools could probably be construed as a threat.

It was very real and serious to the people at the time.

That was almost 60 years ago Richard. How does that justify punitive sanctions in the 21st century? Castro is dead and the Cold War ended two decades ago.

Gee, by that logic, maybe we should have punitive sanctions against Japan since they bombed Pearl Harbor back in 1941.

Explain what military threat Cuba poses to the United States today, please. They barely have a functioning military.

You are an excellent case study in cognitive dissonance, Richard. And no, I don't expect you to know what those words mean, you'll just have to trust me on this.

[Richard]

^ you do remember the last time we visited Korea in this thread it found safe haven in the non Detroit part,why stand in front of an oncoming train twice?

Besides,we kinda miss you over on the dark side,it is easy enough to contribute over there all you have to do is show your displeasure of the currant administration 1000 times within a three post minimum without actually saying anything.You have that part down anyways.

[Canadian Visitor]

Messaging and consistency, not currently 2 things that go together when contemplating the Trump Administration.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince...ment-1.4707463

[aj3647]

Besides,we kinda miss you over on the dark side,it is easy enough to contribute over there all you have to do is show your displeasure of the currant administration 1000 times within a three post minimum without actually saying anything.You have that part down anyways.

And I see you've still got the "functional illiteracy" part down. It's "current" administration. Current. Not a hard word to spell for anyone with a second-grade education or higher. A currant is a dried berry.

Notice you didn't answer my question though about what threat Cuba poses to us in the year 2018.

Anyways, back on topic, for Trump to call Canada a "national security threat" to justify tariffs is beyond disrespectful to the families of the dead Canadian servicemen who have died fighting alongside American soldiers on the battlefield. From Juno Beach on D-Day to the Korean War to the over 150 Canadian soldiers who have died in the War in Afghanistan, Trump just took a giant shit all over them and their sacrifices.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/Canada...hreat-18133524

Canada has been one of our most loyal and steadfast allies. They are not a threat to our national security. 150+ Canadians laid down their lives in Afghanistan to protect us.

[canuck]

Let's not even look at how tens of thousands of Canuckistanis joined US forces in the Vietnam war and/or the tens of thousands from the US who dodged the draft fleeing to Canuckistan.

[Pat001]

Trade war with Canada. We will be rationing maple syrup by Labor Day!

[Richard]

And I see you've still got the "functional illiteracy" part down. It's "current" administration. Current. Not a hard word to spell for anyone with a second-grade education or higher. A currant is a dried berry.

Notice you didn't answer my question though about what threat Cuba poses to us in the year 2018.

Anyways, back on topic, for Trump to call Canada a "national security threat" to justify tariffs is beyond disrespectful to the families of the dead Canadian servicemen who have died fighting alongside American soldiers on the battlefield. From Juno Beach on D-Day to the Korean War to the over 150 Canadian soldiers who have died in the War in Afghanistan, Trump just took a giant shit all over them and their sacrifices.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/Canada...hreat-18133524

Canada has been one of our most loyal and steadfast allies. They are not a threat to our national security. 150+ Canadians laid down their lives in Afghanistan to protect us.

I am sorry you were traumatized by a misspelled word,but not really.

As usual you like takeing spoken words and twisting them to meet an agenda,which is worse then misspelling them.

It is complicated to grasp the concept of each country should maintain the capacity and capability when it comes to producing sensitive products when it comes to national security.

It has zero to do with disrespect or animosity towards Canada,in case you have not noticed the United States and Canada are both sovereign nations.

So what happens in the future if for instance we are attacked,Canada says,as clearly portrayed already,Screw Trump we hate him,so that critical tank part that we manufacture for you,well sorry we lost the keys to the plant.

Like I posted before,every country's leaderships duty first and foremost is to their citizens.If you have a hard time grasping that then that is your problem not the problem of the United States or the currant administration.

See,that is letting emotions run your life and overpowering simple common sense.

I honestly believe there is a segment of our population and you included that would have no problem and would be dancing in the streets if this country was attacked and millions of Americans died in the process as long as it also took out the currant president.So who are the real traitors in this country.

So what did the United States provide in WW2 outside of personal? The ability of mass production that no other country could,without that capability to supply everybody else the tools needed,it would have been a different result.

I did not answer the Cuba question because the moderator already posted to take it elsewhere,but you did not care,you took it and twisted it into it was my advoidence.

Notice the pattern of screw everybody else,my personal hatred trumps and is all that matters.The country is much bigger then yours or mine little bubble.

[canuck]

As I noted before, he is not so much a currant President as an orange President.

[bust]

As I noted before, he is not so much a currant President as an orange President.

Gag me with a [[wine tasting) spittoon!

[Richard]

As I noted before, he is not so much a currant President as an orange President.

Are all Canadians racist against skin color?

I guess the silver lining in all of this is there must be some profit in smuggling milk and wine into Canada 1920s style,it does open up a whole new leval of opportunity.

It is cheaper to get drunk then it is to have a glass of milk?and we have life in a blender?

Or spend less energy and just tell the two to sit down with a glass of milk and a couple made in Mexico Hershey kisses and work it out.

On second thought,naw it is much more exciting to spread drama and hate and pumps the media ratings up,which was actually going the route of the buggy whip before the elections.

I guess one could say the current president actually made the media relevant,in their own minds,again.They should send him a basket of fruits as a token of thanks.

How come when Hershey closed its plant in Canada and laid off 600 workers nobody followed what they did in Pennsylvania and boycott at that time.

O my bad,I keeping forgetting about the whole what ever fits the current agenda thingy.

[Colombian Dan]

No love loss for Canada... Canada being the 2nd largest country in the world in land mass, yet has less than 38 million people. Takes in only 270,000 immigrants per year. Australia and New Zealand are other examples of this faux liberal attitude. America takes in no less than 1,000,000 legal immigrants every year. Let Canada feel the wrath of America....