Your leaders north of 8 mile are idiots

[Bigdd]

That's the township's job. The county has no jurisdiction over your local roads.

And, yeah, Bloomfield Twp. has abysmal roads. Franklin Rd. was like driving through Kandahar or Kabul until they recently repaved.

No,.. the roads are all property of the Oakland County Road Commission. When you build a road, you have to gift it to them,... and then they are responsible to maintain it. But there's no way to force them to maintain it to any particular standard.

They also own the first 16' - 20" of everyone's driveway / lawn.

[Bham1982]

No,.. the roads are all property of the Oakland County Road Commission.

No, the township has jurisdiction over the local roads. The Road Commission has jurisdiction over county roads only.

They also own the first 16' - 20" of everyone's driveway / lawn.

This is [[quite obviously) nonsense. The County doesn't own any of your property.

[Bham1982]

You're not wrong about the job of the county executive, however it's also not the job of the county executive to isolate their county, or try to, against the "dangers" of regionalism. He's supposed to be a leader, instead he built a wall around Oakland County [[which has slowly yet surely been crumbling and now he's lashing out) and has refused to understand the complexities of regional transit and the need for a strong urban core.

This is all nonsense. Oakland County has not "isolated itself" anymore than Macomb or Wayne counties. The county executive prioritizes the county residents, obviously, which is his job. Brooks is an ass and bigot but the county has functioned extremely well under his watch.

You [[and others) are just angry that you can't use Oakland taxpayers as your unlimited personal piggy bank for whatever pet project so people can play "big city" in Detroit for a few years. Wayne County is poor and broke, and the tax base in some Oakland cities is bigger than the tax base in the entire city of Detroit, so naturally the county is treated like the region's piggy bank for the latest "urban revival" boondoggle.

I've now heard that money is tight here in the OC and that our county keeps growing and getting wealthier. Which is it?

People don't want to spend even more in taxes on stupid projects that do nothing for their families, their communities, and the region. The Q Line, Pizza Pizza Park, $700 million in tax breaks so a billionaire who owns the largest mortgage provider on the planet can justify building an office building, are prime examples. The region isn't urban, will never be urban, and the people who value such things are long gone.

[dtowncitylover]

This is all nonsense. Oakland County has not "isolated itself" anymore than Macomb or Wayne counties. The county executive prioritizes the county residents, obviously, which is his job. Brooks is an ass and bigot but the county has functioned extremely well under his watch.

You [[and others) are just angry that you can't use Oakland taxpayers as your unlimited personal piggy bank for whatever pet project so people can play "big city" in Detroit for a few years. Wayne County is poor and broke, and the tax base in some Oakland cities is bigger than the tax base in the entire city of Detroit, so naturally the county is treated like the region's piggy bank for the latest "urban revival" boondoggle.



People don't want to spend even more in taxes on stupid projects that do nothing for their families, their communities, and the region. The Q Line, Pizza Pizza Park, $700 million in tax breaks so a billionaire who owns the largest mortgage provider on the planet can justify building an office building, are prime examples. The region isn't urban, will never be urban, and the people who value such things are long gone.

No, I'm fucking angry because men like LBP use racial undertones to pander to his base to block this region from moving into the 21st century. Don't you fucking dare tell me why the fuck I'm angry. I've seen my friends leave this shitty pasture for greener ones all the while our leaders are so fucking dense as to why that is. Our education is shitty. Our infrastructure is shitty. Our provincialism is prided. It's unbelievable.

It's my tax dollars too. It's OUR taxes that would fund this. It's just the same reaching into my pocket as it is reaching into yours. Yes, we all need to fund this. BECAUSE IT'S A REGIONAL RESOURCE. J.F.C. Mass/public transit isn't a pet project. IT'S NECESSARY COMPONENT TO A REGION'S SUSTAINABILITY AND LIVELIHOOD. We are quickly becoming irrelevant because our schools suck and our transportation is poorly funded and poorly executed.

So no, this isn't about "urban revival", it's about the regional economy and linking the region together.

Who the fuck cares if our region isn't "urban". Whatever you think of Atlanta, Dallas, LA, or Phoenix, at least they know how fucking fund a transit system. And no one would say they're anything like Manhattan.

[Bigdd]

No, the township has jurisdiction over the local roads. The Road Commission has jurisdiction over county roads only.

Incorrect. That's true of most cities and villages,.. but not Townships.

https://www.rcocweb.org/163/Road-Jurisdiction

This is [[quite obviously) nonsense. The County doesn't own any of your property.

Pretty sure that's not correct. [[Just went through this at a meeting).

BTW,.. if you own properties in Oakland County,... have you read your deeds? It's the same as city sidewalks,.. which are owned by Detroit or Grosse Pointe or whomever,.. but which you are required to maintain.

You are free to believe whatever you like,.. and this has gotten way off topic.

My point was to mention that residents in other counties are already shoveling a massive amount of money [[much of it via the State Education funding system) into Detroit to prop it up after decades of socialist policies and gross miss-management.

And for the most part,.. it is not in the best interest to further fund a regional transit system.

[Bigdd]

Our education is shitty. Our infrastructure is shitty. Our provincialism is prided. It's unbelievable.

So,.. do you suppose that's the fault of people in other counties? Of course not. It's the fault of the decision making of the people in Detroit, and their socialist leanings,.. and their propensity to vote for candidates because they are hip-hop,.. or used to dance and sing 50 years ago, voting for an illiterate school board president, etc instead of someone who is right for the job [[even if they are,...GASP,... not black and a Democrat).

It's Detroiter's who destroyed their education system,.. not outsiders. And money keeps pouring in from the rest of the state to prop up DSD to no avail. Detroit gets the most funding of any major school system in the country,.. yet has the worst results. Miami Dade Florida has the best scores of any major school system,.. and they spend $8,700 something per pupil. Detroit spends over $14,250 per. Detroit doesn't need more money,... it's need to get it's act together.

It's my tax dollars too. It's OUR taxes that would fund this.

Yes,.. but when it serves one city more than the others,.. and the others have to pay more than that one city,... you can understand why the others aren't crazy about the idea.

[dtowncitylover]

My point was to mention that residents in other counties are already shoveling a massive amount of money [[much of it via the State Education funding system) into Detroit to prop it up after decades of socialist policies and gross miss-management.

And for the most part,.. it is not in the best interest to further fund a regional transit system.

Please do go on about these socialist policies...is that when our singular free-market industry basically dictates our economy or the fact that free-market urban sprawl has destroyed our inner city and lead to a de-centralization of the employment centers. Did the city of Detroit nationalize an industry we're not aware of?

In the best interest of who? Frank Rizzo who wrote to the Free Press in 1976 that he didn't want "those people" coming into his Warren neighborhood? Or the Frank Rizzo who now, by his own free will, lives at 35 Mile who still thinks "those people" will use the bus to come rob him?

It's so pathetic this region doesn't care to invest in anything. We're complacent in living cheaply and then complain when things aren't up to our [[low) "standards"

[dtowncitylover]

So,.. do you suppose that's the fault of people in other counties? Of course not. It's the fault of the decision making of the people in Detroit, and their socialist leanings,.. and their propensity to vote for candidates because they are hip-hop,.. or used to dance and sing 50 years ago, voting for an illiterate school board president, etc instead of someone who is right for the job [[even if they are,...GASP,... not black).

It's Detroiter's who destroyed their education system,.. not outsiders. And money keeps pouring in from the rest of the state to prop up DSD to no avail. Detroit gets the most funding of any major school system in the country,.. yet has the worst results. Miami Dade Florida has the best scores of any major school system,.. and they spend $8,700 something per pupil. Detroit spends over $14,250 per. Detroit doesn;t need more money,... it's need to get it's act together. Really it needs dads. LOTS more dads.

Yes,.. but when it serves one city more than the others,.. and the others have to pay more than that one city,... you can understand why the others aren't crazy about the idea.

[/QUOTE]

No DPS failed because a middle class, white tax base left the city to live in the suburbs. African American community replaced them. However, the black community was not as large as the white community and not as wealthy. It wasn't as wealthy because education had been unavailable or sub-par in comparison to their white peers to the black community. So the schools suffered because the tax base wasn't there because blacks didn't have the job opportunities whites had because the schools they went to weren't as good as the white neighborhood schools. You were incredibly lucky to attend schools like Cass and Renaissance.

You have no idea was socialism is. That's not my opinion. It's fact. PERIOD. You don't have a clue.

The regional plan services the REGION. In fact the Connect SE Michigan does little for the city of Detroit, instead it links the city with suburbs that haven't had service, like Novi and Bloomfield Hills, and it also links the airport with counties, cross-county points between Oakland and Macomb, and links Ann Arbor/Western Wayne. It will also take over People Mover and QLine administration, but that pales in comparison to the bus systems we have.

[aj3647]

Please do go on about these socialist policies...is that when our singular free-market industry basically dictates our economy or the fact that free-market urban sprawl has destroyed our inner city and lead to a de-centralization of the employment centers. Did the city of Detroit nationalize an industry we're not aware of?

People like Bigdd hear Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly liberally use that word, so much like a two-year old, they parrot it without any idea what it actually means. Doubtful he's ever actually opened a dictionary to actually look at the definition of the word.

[Bigdd]

No DPS failed because a middle class, white tax base left the city to live in the suburbs. African American community replaced them. However, the black community was not as large as the white community and not as wealthy. It wasn't as wealthy because education had been unavailable or sub-par in comparison to their white peers to the black community.

Sigh. There was never a time when Detroit schools were grossly underfunded. And most of the time they were way over funded.

It's just that the VOTERS in Detroit didn't do their job,.. and neither did the parents.

More OPM [[Other People's Money) can never overcome what has ailed Detroit. Despite what racist hate mongers like Jesse and Al have programed you to think.

[dtowncitylover]

More OPM [[Other People's Money)

Aka I really don't want to pay taxes to live in a civilized society but instead I use cute acronyms to rail against having to pay for it but insisting on benefiting from it.

[O3H]

Everyone benefits from a regional mindset, as opposed to an isolationist,
me first attitude in SouthEast Michigan.

LBrooksP never created true a true WWTP for southeast Oakland County, opting for a cheap band aid fix, screwing other neighbors with their sewage.

Time to pay up, ante in OaklandCounty. The surrounding communities will continue to pressure places like Royal Oak, Berkley, OakPark, etc. to separate it's combined sewer systems - because it affects property value, real estate, recreation, etc, in the neighboring communities. OaklandCounty has money , because it never paid for its own sewage, opting instead to contaminate the Clinton River with every hard rain.

[MSUguy]

A very long way of saying yeah Brooks is an idiot


Patterson staked out the claim of being a "standalone economy" that doesn't need Detroit against the backdrop of his entrenched fight with Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan and Wayne County Executive Warren Evans over whether the region's public transit is sufficient for employers and workers.

CEOs, foundation leaders, economists and planners all say the transit systems are not sufficient. Amazon said no.

Patterson's main argument against expanding regional transit is there would be little return on investment for Oakland County, where higher property values generate more tax revenue.

It's a claim that ignores the facts about commuting patterns of this sprawling region — one-fifth of Oakland County's workforce lives in Wayne County and one-sixth of Wayne County's workforce resides in Oakland County, according to census data.

The two rival counties trade brawn and brains every day, especially along the densely populated border.

Novi, a flag carrier for anti-transit Oakland County communities that have walled themselves off from regional transportation options for low-wage workers, gets 85 percent of its 37,000 workers from outside of its city limits, according to census commuting data analyzed by the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments.
The No. 1 employment destination for Novi residents each day? Detroit.

Ditto for residents of Farmington Hills, Bloomfield and West Bloomfield townships, Beverly Hills, Oak Park, Royal Oak, Ferndale and Troy.

In these cities in Oakland County's so-called "stand-alone economy," the city receiving the largest share of its residents each day for employment and wealth creation is Detroit.

And let's not forget Southfield, that city of office and residential towers that rose during Detroit's long decline. One-quarter of working Southfield residents are employed in Detroit.

In fact, more Southfield residents are employed in Detroit than work in their home city, according to the U.S. Census Bureau's 2013 data.

As Detroit has rebounded, Oakland County residents are taking up a larger share of the workforce in Wayne County, according to census data.

But the employment train runs both ways.

More than 10,000 Detroiters come to Southfield each day for work, comprising 13 percent of that suburb's workforce, according to the census data.

Oakland County's "stand-alone economy" imports more workers each day [[398,932) than it employs among its own residents [[331,818), according to 2015 census data.

Detroiters make up the largest share of commuters who work in Ferndale, Royal Oak and Farmington Hills — in jobs that keep hospitals, restaurants, bars and stores in those cities running.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...countys-engine

[3WC]

Bloomfield Twp. and most Oakland County road are a disaster. The worst I've seen in many years. I saw a cartoon recently which pictured a guy looking at a stretch of road that was cracked, tilted every which way and with giant potholes. The caption read: "An earthquake hit Oakland County but luckily didn't affect the roads."

Used to be a Brooks fan but not any more. A year and a half or so ago that idiot spent over $90 million [[several funding sources including local taxpayers) on a no-bid design-build contract to rebuild the I-75/Square Lake interchange to cure alleged safety issues; there was only one and the rebuild did nothing to improve it. Screwed up traffic in the area for over a year and a total waste of money, money which could have been used to rebuild most of the surface roads. [[It's about a year old and they're already repairing it. They must have used corn meal mush as a main ingredient in the concrete.)

By the way, municipalities don't "own" anyone's property although they do have easements for expansion of roadways, installing and maintaining sewers, sidewalks etc.

[3WC]

P.S. Who can blame Oakland and Macomb County leaders from not wanting to affiliate with Detroit on transportation. Detroit pissed away millions on the people Mover [[and continues to do so) and was dumb enough to agree to maintain the massive losses the QLine will still experience at the end of its initial ten year life.

Take a look at Vancouver, B.C., Canada and Toronto. Those folks know what they're doing. They use electric trolley cars that have great maneuverability through heavy traffic and move more people that a Line car.

Detroit doesn't do anything right in my opinion. [[Dan Gilbert and the Ilitches do, though, lucky for Detroiters.)

[Bigdd]

Everyone benefits from a regional mindset, as opposed to an isolationist,...........

Yes,.. but it depends on who you're getting in bed with.

Most everyone likes the idea of sharing the bills with other municipalities that are roughly equals [[such as 2 like-cities sharing a fire dept.),.. but when one is fiscally responsible,.. and the other throws away money like there's no tomorrow,.. then the deal is going to end in tears for the former.

[Jason]

P.S. Who can blame Oakland and Macomb County leaders from not wanting to affiliate with Detroit on transportation. Detroit pissed away millions on the people Mover [[and continues to do so) and was dumb enough to agree to maintain the massive losses the QLine will still experience at the end of its initial ten year life.

Take a look at Vancouver, B.C., Canada and Toronto. Those folks know what they're doing. They use electric trolley cars that have great maneuverability through heavy traffic and move more people that a Line car.

Detroit doesn't do anything right in my opinion. [[Dan Gilbert and the Ilitches do, though, lucky for Detroiters.)

In defense of the People Mover, it's not so bad.

Quality of Service

It runs every 4 minutes all day every day, while each of our region's other transit providers only have a handful of routes that are more frequent than every 15 minutes at peak hours. Reliability is strong. The quality of service is great by any standard.

Ridership

According to the 2015 RTA "state of the system" report, it has the 7th highest ridership in the region. The first was Woodward [[8,710), Dexter [[7,818), Grand River [[7,684), Gratiot [[5,630), SMART Gratiot [[5,502), AAATA Washtenaw [[5,139), and the People Mover [[5,134).

However, these numbers make the People Mover "look bad" because they are weekday numbers. Numbers for the other systems are worse on the weekends but the People Mover's are better [[Saturdays in 2015 averaged 10,306). The People Mover reported 2,413,414 in 2015, divided by 365, is 6,612 [[4th). Either way it's one of the most heavily used transit routes in our region.

Operating Costs

In the 2015 RTA report the net operating cost per rider is $5.66 for the People Mover. The region wide average is $5.13.

Woodward bus was $2.59, Dexter $3.26, Grand River $2.53, Gratiot $3.17, SMART Gratiot $3.54, and AAATA Washtenaw $2.27. The SMART Main Street-Big Beaver $15.34, SMART Downriver $13.61, SMART Kercheval-Jefferson $13.55 are some of the most expensive.

In the last few years operating expenses have ranged from about $12-$17 million per year. Fare revenues have been only about $1.5 million. The state usually pays 25-30%, and the city fills the gap after federal/grant/revenue/other sources. This is expensive, but the per passenger cost is still not dramatically above the regional average.

Property Values

In 2016 a study was done [[Transit Oriented Development Study for the Detroit People Mover, April 29 2016), which reported that the People Mover was responsible for a 38% increase in commercial property values downtown, independent of other factors. It estimates $119.77 million in 2000 dollars of added property value. It's likely that the property taxes created by the People Mover cover most of the city's contribution to it.

[Bham1982]

In 2016 a study was done [[Transit Oriented Development Study for the Detroit People Mover, April 29 2016), which reported that the People Mover was responsible for a 38% increase in commercial property values downtown, independent of other factors. It estimates $119.77 million in 2000 dollars of added property value. It's likely that the property taxes created by the People Mover cover most of the city's contribution to it.

I guarantee whoever conducted this "study" had a vested interest in "proving" their foregone conclusions. The People Mover is a joke and a poster child for dumb transit development.

[masterblaster]

P.S. Who can blame Oakland and Macomb County leaders from not wanting to affiliate with Detroit on transportation. Detroit pissed away millions on the people Mover [[and continues to do so) and was dumb enough to agree to maintain the massive losses the QLine will still experience at the end of its initial ten year life.

Take a look at Vancouver, B.C., Canada and Toronto. Those folks know what they're doing. They use electric trolley cars that have great maneuverability through heavy traffic and move more people that a Line car.

Detroit doesn't do anything right in my opinion. [[Dan Gilbert and the Ilitches do, though, lucky for Detroiters.)

Was not the People Mover originally started by the Southeast Michigan Transit Authority [[SEMTA)? When they mismanaged the project from the beginning and was going to abandon it, didn't Detroit, through the newly created Detroit Transportation Corporation, step in to keep it going? Isn't that how it went down?

Please read the article:

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-12-...t-people-mover

P.S. Vancouver and Toronto have several rapid transit lines. In fact, Vancouver expanded its peoplemover system, called the Skytrain, TWICE.

[3WC]

Bham1982: Correct again.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

[iheartthed]

Was not the People Mover originally started by the Southeast Michigan Transit Authority [[SEMTA)? When they mismanaged the project from the beginning and was going to abandon it, didn't Detroit, through the newly created Detroit Transportation Corporation, step in to keep it going? Isn't that how it went down?

Please read the article:

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-12-...t-people-mover

P.S. Vancouver and Toronto have several rapid transit lines. In fact, Vancouver expanded its peoplemover system, called the Skytrain, TWICE.

Yes it was a SEMTA project [[SEMTA is now SMART for those of us born in the 1980s and later). It was almost meant to be a circulator, similar to the Chicago loop, for a larger rail system. The only part of it to be built was the People Mover in hopes that it was be the catalyst to eventually build the rest of the project.

[Jason]

Bham1982: Correct again.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Even disregarding that report, ridership and operating costs are straightforward numbers and are indisputable. It's one of the most used transit routes in the region, and it operates at a bit above the regional average per trip.

[O3H]

We are stuck with Hackel for a while - unfortunately.
At least LBrooksP will get replaced soon.

[O3H]

Hackel had his gun stolen - he is a genius -- right ????

[coracle]

Our leaders north of 8 Mile are not idiots. They haven’t bankrupted us like yours have in Detroit and they haven’t committed us to pay for your RTA. I’m a little pissed off though that they are giving you $2 Billion over 40 years to “subsidize” DWDS.