Citizenship for Transit ? - Yep !!!

[O3H]

Are you a USA citizen, can you prove it 24/7 and 365 ?
Might want to carry that passport, on your body, now.

http://www.newyorkupstate.com/syracu...in_syracu.html

Because Michigan is a Peninsula, that 100 miles from any border applies to much of our wonderful state. Still love Donny ....?

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/f...reezonemap.png

The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution protects Americans from random and arbitrary searches and stops, but those rights do not apply at the borders.

[Zacha341]

Oh my... I keep an active passport around the house and it's come in handy a few times outside of travel [[misplaced my drivers license etc). But to have to carry one? What is this country coming to?? YIKES!

[O3H]

Do you carry a Passport CARD ? Why not you might ask ?

https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...port/card.html

By the way if anyone is curious - I most certainly AM, the son of German Immigrants to this country back in the 1960's. My heritage and ancestry resides in Europe, across the ocean, over....there. Born in Royal Oak Beaumont Hospital, so I am a legal citizen - but I sympathize with those holding the ""Green Cards""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perman...United_States)

Permanent residents of the United States eighteen years of age or older must carry their actual green card at all times. Failing to do so is a violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act, carrying the possibility of a fine up to $100 and imprisonment for up to 30 days for each offense

[Sandhouse]

I occasionally wonder about this, although I have never heard of the kind of ICE abuses happening in Detroit that you hear about from states along the Mexico border. I've seen the green-and-white border patrol trucks at riverfront parks and Belle Isle [[probably with their drivers catching a nap).

I've had differing advice about what to do if you're jacked up by an immigration roadblock. My lawyer friends say you're entitled to tell them to get lost if they do not articulate a reason why they suspect you're not a citizen, and advise me not to let them enter my name in whatever data base they're feeding. Other sources say you're required to show identification, as if you're a driver during a traffic stop. Being a libertarian reprobate, I hold with the first view.

Have any readers ever encountered such a stop in Michigan?

[Wesley Mouch]

I occasionally wonder about this, although I have never heard of the kind of ICE abuses happening in Detroit that you hear about from states along the Mexico border. I've seen the green-and-white border patrol trucks at riverfront parks and Belle Isle [[probably with their drivers catching a nap).

I've had differing advice about what to do if you're jacked up by an immigration roadblock. My lawyer friends say you're entitled to tell them to get lost if they do not articulate a reason why they suspect you're not a citizen, and advise me not to let them enter my name in whatever data base they're feeding. Other sources say you're required to show identification, as if you're a driver during a traffic stop. Being a libertarian reprobate, I hold with the first view.

Have any readers ever encountered such a stop in Michigan?

This is not a. new law. Been the case forever. I thought it was within 25 miles, but either way it affects much if not all of our metro region.

I believe as a US Citizen you have the right to decline to provide proof of your citizenship. The rest of the citizens of the USA, through their fine immigration agents, have a right to detain you in order to ascertain whether you are a citizen, or are in the country illegally. I suspect it could be a long detention. But I do believe you have the right to decline to identify yourself and assist in proving that you are a citizen of the USA.

Your rights are probably just the same as if you were at a Port of Entry [[tunnel, bridge, airport).

This is a reasonable policy. Job #1 for our immigration officials is to make sure that people are in the US legally. The idea that this is unreasonable is, frankly, absurd. Border control is arguably the number one responsibility of the federal government. Without border control, our rights as citizens are diminished.

[stasu1213]

My driver's license should be sufficient

[oladub]

Because Michigan is a Peninsula, that 100 miles from any border applies to much of our wonderful state. Still love Donny ....?

The 100 mile Homeland Security ruling has been in effect since 2004 which would make Bush, Obama, and 'Donny' and all the Congresses since 2003 responsible not only for the ruling but for letting in and allowing illegal non-citizens to proliferate in the US.

[Johnnny5]

So immigration agents are attempting to enforce U.S immigration laws? What's the big freaking deal here? As others have mentioned these types of checks occurred while Obama was in office and the media had little to nothing to say about them.

I've had my ID/documents randomly checked well within the borders of other nations while traveling abroad. Why should I be concerned or offended that our government does the same?

[iheartthed]

I've had my ID/documents checked well within the borders of other nations while traveling abroad. Why should I be concerned or offended that our government does the same?

I have never had my documents checked by law enforcement while traveling except at a border crossing. I visited at least 10 different countries last year.

[Johnnny5]

I have never had my documents checked by law enforcement while traveling except at a border crossing. I visited at least 10 different countries last year.

Well good for you! It happened to me last about 2 years ago in downtown Cancun while sharing a cab.

I'll add that I have no clue why we were stopped, or what agency it was that stopped us. The officers asked us where were from, to see our passports and then let us go a couple minutes later. It was a non issue at the time.

[Don K]

So immigration agents are attempting to enforce U.S immigration laws? What's the big freaking deal here? As others have mentioned these types of checks occurred while Obama was in office and the media had little to nothing to say about them.

I've had my ID/documents randomly checked well within the borders of other nations while traveling abroad. Why should I be concerned or offended that our government does the same?

Mmmm ... Do you carry your birth certificate with you at all times? But of course you're probably white, so no biggie I guess. I have one of the enhanced drivers licenses to allow entry to and return from Canada, so I guess I'm covered.

I've known Latinos who were born here who talk like where they're from [[Michigan, Texas). Why should they have to carry and show their papers like someone in a WWII movie?

[Johnnny5]

Mmmm ... Do you carry your birth certificate with you at all times? But of course you're probably white, so no biggie I guess. I have one of the enhanced drivers licenses to allow entry to and return from Canada, so I guess I'm covered.

I've known Latinos who were born here who talk like where they're from [[Michigan, Texas). Why should they have to carry and show their papers like someone in a WWII movie?

Yes, I am white and speak English with an American accent. Those two things do normally prevent U.S immigration officials from questioning my citizenship, and coincidentally they are probably the same reasons the officers in Mexico asked to see my passport.

For those Hispanic Americans that aren't native English speakers and may have their U.S citizenship questioned I sympathize with them, but any anger towards immigration enforcement is misdirected. They should be more upset with the almost 10 million Hispanic illegal aliens that have made those that look like them a target of U.S immigration enforcement in the first place.

[archfan]

...
I've had my ID/documents randomly checked well within the borders of other nations while traveling abroad. Why should I be concerned or offended that our government does the same?

I was all set to lay in to this statement, but tbh it just makes me tired that people are willing to give up rights to the government, and just trust they won't abuse it.

[O3H]

Wonder if ICE could essentially set up upon a main street
and funnel people towards a checkpoint, asking for identification.

That simple plain drivers license will not suffice for many unfortunate souls

[Johnnny5]

Wonder if ICE could essentially set up upon a main street
and funnel people towards a checkpoint, asking for identification.

That simple plain drivers license will not suffice for many unfortunate souls

They already do [[And have been for decades). Checkpoints are fairly commonplace along highways close to the Southern border. I've never been asked for identification at one, but I'm sure that happens to those they may suspect of being here illegally.

[Bham1982]

I have never had my documents checked by law enforcement while traveling except at a border crossing. I visited at least 10 different countries last year.

Me neither. I've been in dozens of countries, including dictatorships, and never had my docs checked, except at immigration controls.

I also highly doubt such checks are random. No doubt they're profiling.

[EastsideAl]

So immigration agents are attempting to enforce U.S immigration laws? What's the big freaking deal here? As others have mentioned these types of checks occurred while Obama was in office and the media had little to nothing to say about them.

I've had my ID/documents randomly checked well within the borders of other nations while traveling abroad. Why should I be concerned or offended that our government does the same?

Other countries don't have the Bill of Rights, and specifically the 4th Amendment. It's requirement for probable cause and warrants for searches and seizures would seem to bar such "random" searches of people simple traveling from place to place within the country and not crossing a border.

However, as oladub points out, this outrageous expansion of ICE and Border Patrol power to conduct such checks is a creature of our post-2001 panic and trashing of much of the Bill of Rights. So, although the frequency and intrusiveness of such actions has reportedly increased significantly in the past year, you can't blame President Donny McRacist for the laws and policies that allows them.

[Johnnny5]

Other countries don't have the Bill of Rights, and specifically the 4th Amendment. It's requirement for probable cause and warrants for searches and seizures would seem to bar such "random" searches of people simple traveling from place to place within the country and not crossing a border.

I'm curious, do you feel the same way about the restrictions that have been placed upon our 2nd Amendment rights? In most of America in order to purchase and carry a firearm one has to go background checks, be delayed by waiting periods, have fingerprints taken, complete training courses, pay fees and taxes and more. Those restrictions seem to be far more extensive and controlling than random checks of citizenship that occur near our international borders.

Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of random stops by law enforcement, and if these stops were to expand further I would be opposed to them. That said, we're faced with a situation where close to 5% of the population of Mexico is now living and working within our borders illegally. Add another 5+ millions illegal aliens from other nations and the possibility of foreign terrorists hiding within that mix and this has become an emergency situation where drastic measures needed to be taken.

I'm tolerant of reasonable restrictions to my 2nd Amendment rights because I realize that they can help identify and control those that should not legally possess firearms. In the same way I'll tolerate reasonable limitations of my 4th Amendment rights if they can help identify and stop threats that those here illegally may pose.

[EastsideAl]

I'm curious, do you feel the same way about the restrictions that have been placed upon our 2nd Amendment rights?

Not to get too far into gun issues, but despite all of the panic from certain organizations, there are really no restrictions on our 2nd Amendment rights. Aside from some very small, precisely and narrowly defined, categories of people exempted for public safety reasons due to a court finding or age, all American citizens can legally purchase and own firearms.

The Amendment itself has consistently been read by our courts as allowing the government a right to regulate some aspects of firearm purchasing, registration, and use. And even the Heller decision, which overturned over 100 years of legal precedents on certain 2nd Amendment issues, left intact the basic right to regulate. But the right to "keep and bear arms" itself remains unabridged.

Quite a bit different IMO from declaring that our constitutional protection against warrantless search and seizure without probable cause is completely negated 100 miles from any border. Thus rendering a quite large percentage of the US population [[like all of the residents of the Detroit metro area), due to no cause other than where they reside or travel within the country, to effectively not have a constitutional right.

[Bham1982]

I'm curious, do you feel the same way about the restrictions that have been placed upon our 2nd Amendment rights?

What "restrictions"? There's no such thing. You can't have a law restricting any amendment.

If a weapons law were unconstitutional, it would be found as such. Courts decide this stuff every day.

Courts have found that govts. can regulate weapons, obviously. You find it overly restrictive that toddlers can't buy nukes or something? I mean, we're already pretty close to a free-for-all.

[Johnnny5]

What "restrictions"? There's no such thing. You can't have a law restricting any amendment.

If a weapons law were unconstitutional, it would be found as such. Courts decide this stuff every day.

Courts have found that govts. can regulate weapons, obviously. You find it overly restrictive that toddlers can't buy nukes or something? I mean, we're already pretty close to a free-for-all.

I disagree.

There are literally 1000's of laws on the books limiting and restricting the right to bear arms. There are restrictions on who can purchase firearms, where they can be purchased, how they must be transported, how they can be stored. There are also federal and state laws and limitations on many different types of firearms including short barreled shotguns and rifles, most fully automatic guns, magazine capacity, etc. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that of the rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights the 2nd Amendment is probably the most limited and regulated of them all.

Of course the courts have found that most of these current laws limiting 2nd Amendment rights are legal. The U.S Supreme Court has also determined that limited interior immigration checkpoints and limited checks for legal residency are legal.

[oladub]

FOURTH AMENDMENT -"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

"Unreasonable searches" is a term left for the courts. With the NSA listening in on Americans' phone calls, police cameras recording license plate numbers, searches based on appearance near the Mexican border as described here, facial image technology, and other intrusive searches, what are unreasonable searches? Is it, for instance, reasonable to give people leaving bars breathalyzer tests when they leave a bar at 2am before they start their cars?

[iheartthed]

I disagree.

There are literally 1000's of laws on the books limiting and restricting the right to bear arms. There are restrictions on who can purchase firearms, where they can be purchased, how they must be transported, how they can be stored. There are also federal and state laws and limitations on many different types of firearms including short barreled shotguns and rifles, most fully automatic guns, magazine capacity, etc. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that of the rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights the 2nd Amendment is probably the most limited and regulated of them all.

Of course the courts have found that most of these current laws limiting 2nd Amendment rights are legal. The U.S Supreme Court has also determined that limited interior immigration checkpoints and limited checks for legal residency are legal.

The Second Amendment was not intended to enshrine the right of gun ownership to every individual citizen. It was meant to protect the ability of militias to organize themselves against an aggressor [[or a rogue Federal Government).

Even if we interpret it the way that you are saying we should, courts only restrict liberties enshrined in the Bill of Rights when it is a threat to security. An example of this is that law enforcement does not need a warrant to search bags of public transit systems due to the threat of terrorism. Journalists can also be prosecuted for publishing confidential information that compromises security of intelligence agencies working covert missions. I think it'd be very hard to prove that illegal immigration is an immediate security threat that requires the government to be able to check documentation without justification.

[O3H]

I was hoping to keep it transit orientated - not an all out anything goes thread

[Richard]

I beat a case back in 1992 that was presented by my attorney based on at that time it was unconstitutional to stop and randomly search public transportation without solid evidence of a crime being committed.

But that all changed on 9-11.

I am a white guy living in a mixed neighborhood and get stopped just walking and asked for ID.

If you are not operating a motor vehicle you are not required to carry ID,but you must properly ID yourself to the officer.

Private security company already has a data base of every registered lincese plate in the country,they flag your tag and can track you in real time useing every Internet connected camera on the net,including police tag readers.

When you view your homes interior over the Internet on your phone,so can the rest of the world.

All of this stuff was implemented after 9-11 at the cost of trillions and has been on the books but is now being used.

Homeland security's job is to follow the law and protect Americans,do not put up a wall or allow implementation of more easily recognized deterrents and they are going to look at different ways,which we are not going to like,they are doing exactly what we ask them to do,how they go about doing that and how much of our rights and liberties we are willing to give up is on us.

When we say no ban on Muslims do you really think they just stop the process,they look for different ways,because that is their job and people make millions in the process while we sell our rights.