DACA and the shutdown

[Richard]

So what is the end game ?

Roughly 800,000 qualified dreamers,adverage age 20.

How did they get here? Parents also here illegally 1.6 million
Adverage children of 3 minus the dreamer qualifiers 1.6 million

Which leaves an additional 3.2 million unqualified.

If you say okay dreamers get automatic citizenship,what are the options for the rest of their family?

They are subject to deportation,even through chain migration,if approved,they cannot apply while in a illegal status in country,so they would have to self deport in order to start the process,if they are forced to deport or notified to deport them they cannot apply because they will be recognized as being in the country illegally.

Up until this point the dreamers status as protected does not include the information on their parents and siblings,that protection then becomes removed as they will be required to submit it to immigration.

So dreamers get to stay while the rest of their family gets sent back without the option of returning.

So really,is it about compassion or the ability to secure an additional 4 million loyal votes in the future.

We as individuals have compassion,politicians are the masters of turning that compassion into votes.

So what do you think the fall out will be if the dreamers are approved as is,without an entire immigration reform package,when they get approved but have to give up the rest of their family in the process.

[Jimaz]

So what is the end game ?....

I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.

— GOP strategist Grover Norquist

[oladub]

Walls have a problem when traitors open the gates. That's what happened in China when traitors willingly opened the gates to Mongols. Its what happened when Presidents Bush and Obama allowed and encouraged illegal aliens, allowed in 'temporary' disaster victims without efforts to return them, incentivized unaccompanied children [[average age 16), visa holders from Ebola infected countries during epidemics, chain immigration, H-1B workers, and 'refugees' from the wars they created. Walls fail when traitors, including economic traitors slamming our middle and working classes, open the gates.

"So what is the end game?" 1) Both parties are well funded by US Chamber of Commerce interests wanting cheap foreign labor at home or abroad. The effect of either is the same on U.S. workers. 2) Although bringing the third world here and dumping its problems on our taxpayers is the most expensive and un-ecological way of helping the third world and in some ways sacrifices Americans' quality of life, I believe that some Democrats are sincere about their intent to help poor foreigners. 3) The Center For American Progress [[CAP) Action Fund circulated a memo by former Clinton communications director Jennifer Palmieri calling Dreamers "a “critical component of the Democratic Party’s future electoral success.”The memo called on Democrats to “refuse to offer any votes for Republican spending bills that do not offer a fix for Dreamers and instead appropriate funds to deport them.”“The fight to protect Dreamers is not only a moral imperative, it is also a critical component of the Democratic Party’s future electoral success.” “If Democrats don’t try to do everything in their power to defend Dreamers, that will jeopardize Democrats’ electoral chances in 2018 and beyond,” “In short, the next few weeks will tell us a lot about the Democratic Party and its long-term electoral prospects.” -Jennifer Palmieri

Like traitors who personally benefited by opening gates to the Mongols, Democratic Party elites benefit themselves and the Democratic Party by opening borders and allying themselves with foreign interests over Americans.

[Richard]

— GOP strategist Grover Norquist

That goes down to how much government do we really need in our lives,it is easier for me to find a buggy whip manufacturer then it is to find a chrome plater because of regulation.

DACA on the table was well spell out during the campaign so it has been a year to present a plan to the American public,why wait until you can grab the country by the balls and say this is how we want it now?

[Chicago48]

So what is the end game ?

Roughly 800,000 qualified dreamers,adverage age 20.

How did they get here? Parents also here illegally 1.6 million
Adverage children of 3 minus the dreamer qualifiers 1.6 million

Which leaves an additional 3.2 million unqualified.

If you say okay dreamers get automatic citizenship,what are the options for the rest of their family?

They are subject to deportation,even through chain migration,if approved,they cannot apply while in a illegal status in country,so they would have to self deport in order to start the process,if they are forced to deport or notified to deport them they cannot apply because they will be recognized as being in the country illegally.

Up until this point the dreamers status as protected does not include the information on their parents and siblings,that protection then becomes removed as they will be required to submit it to immigration.

So dreamers get to stay while the rest of their family gets sent back without the option of returning.

So really,is it about compassion or the ability to secure an additional 4 million loyal votes in the future.

We as individuals have compassion,politicians are the masters of turning that compassion into votes.

So what do you think the fall out will be if the dreamers are approved as is,without an entire immigration reform package,when they get approved but have to give up the rest of their family in the process.

What's lost in all this is that WE the taxpayers will have to pay for their deportation. In 2013 it cost $4.3billion to deport thousands of people.
DACA are students, they work, they're in the military, they contribute to the economy. To make them leave the country will cut into the revenue earnings of businesses.

[Richard]

What's lost in all this is that WE the taxpayers will have to pay for their deportation. In 2013 it cost $4.3billion to deport thousands of people.
DACA are students, they work, they're in the military, they contribute to the economy. To make them leave the country will cut into the revenue earnings of businesses.

It cost $8,660 per person to deport,if they had never entered to begin with we would not have to spend those funds,they broke the law,we pay for it.

If a US citizen breaks the law they pay for it.

If one joins the US military or as it was back when I was in,they automatically received citizenship,so that is a non argument.

How did they come from a country with no money and receive grants for collage,who pays for the grants,and how did they and their parents make an income before DACA while they were here illegally?

If they are protected under DACA and are able to work leagly how are they making enough in unskilled labor to support their parents and siblings without additional help,and how did they create a income without working illegally?

If we provided the same opportunities to the inner city schools and those who cannot afford collage useing the exact same funds would they not also be contributing to the economy?

All that is being done is the trading out of opportunities,removing them from US citizens and giving them to foreign nationals.

The California AG has stated, businesses that follow federal law and discriminate against the hiring of illegals will face fines and or criminal action.

The South campaigned against federal government overreach and they were called traitors and we went to war.

It is that time of year with taxes,we are in a shut down,50% of IRS employees are going to forlowed or sent home because of DACA,what happens when the Amercians that are depending on their tax refund are told that there is going to be a back log delay,it is the government it is not like a switch that will be turned back on,once they restart there will be a massive back log and it will take time to restart.

DACA before low income Amercians.

How many Amercians would go to work knowing that they will not receive a paycheck come Friday ?

I do not know many that would.

But you are asking the military,disaster relief workers,FBI,Homeland security etc.

The very people that make it possible for Amercians to sleep safely at night are being told DACA has more priorities then them.

Our civic duty requires us to care for our fellow Amercians above all else and before anybody else,our past generations gave their lives in service for that,it is a disservice to their sacrifice to be putting our fellow Amercians at the end of the line.

[Chicago48]

How did they come from a country with no money and receive grants for collage,who pays for the grants,and how did they and their parents make an income before DACA while they were here illegally?
^^ It's none of our business who pays for it.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Maybe that FICA area on my payroll check pays in part! And if they leave too. What a fiscal mess!

Then again maybe not.

[Zacha341]

DACA before low income Amercian's.

The broader issue is POLITICS before low income American's!

[oladub]

How did they come from a country with no money and receive grants for collage,who pays for the grants,and how did they and their parents make an income before DACA while they were here illegally?
^^ It's none of our business who pays for it.

If someone is here illegally, it is our business to know how and why our borders and immigration authorities failed and why the rule of law is not upheld. Undocumented students, including DACA recipients are not eligible for federal student aid, but may still be eligible for state or college aid or private scholarships. Money that had been available for state residents is sometimes diverted to illegal non-citizens. A better example would be grades 1-12 public school expenditures which average over $12,000/year/student including federal money without respect to students' citizenships. You might not care but the expenditure of tax money is the business of taxpayers and people who would have otherwise received education, a better education, or other taxpayer benefits. Why should taxpayers have to follow tax laws if the recipients of their tax money don't have to follow naturalization laws?

[Richard]

I think 48 was being sarcastic,as I am at times.

But that is the general consensus,they do not want us to take things like that into consideration when looking at the overall impact because that shows how it actually impacts every American,whether we want to believe it or not.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Me too....... [[sarcasm that is)

[Honky Tonk]

^^^ Me too....... [[sarcasm that is)

Yeah, right....

[aj3647]

How did they come from a country with no money and receive grants for collage,who pays for the grants,and how did they and their parents make an income before DACA while they were here illegally?
^^ It's none of our business who pays for it.

Ever ask yourself why the focus is on the impossible task of trying to locate, round up, and deport over 13 million people while simultaneously trying to keep hundreds of thousands more from illegally crossing a 2000 mile border or overstaying visas instead of cracking down on the much smaller and much more manageable number of people who are employing undocumented workers and thus creating the demand for people to come here illegally and stay?

See below:
https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12...ented-workers/

The answer is pretty obvious. Who's getting rich off of illegal immigrant labor? And why isn't the government going after them with the fervor with which they'll go after some dad in Lincoln Park?

Well, it's simple. Those providing the jobs that attract people to come here illegally and profit off of their labor are, by and large, rich white dudes. And if America has proven one thing over and over again, it's that it's easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than it is to put a rich white man in prison in this country.

There's a supply side and a demand side to illegal immigrant labor and only one side of that equation has anything to fear from law enforcement in the United States. But then again, a bunch of poor brown guys don't put money in the pockets of certain politicians the way a few rich white men can.

[Richard]

Well AJ,you ever watch Sanford and Son when Redd grabs his heart and says "it's the Big one"?

That is me actually agreeing with you,up until you get to it is the rich white mans fault.

In the land of opportunity any ethnic background can own business and employ illegals.

I know lots of ethnic contractors that employ illegals,actually in most parts around here it is the same ethnicity employing and abusing immigrants.

In Miami they recently arrested a Mexican labor provider that was owned by a Mexican,thousands of workers housed in compounds that were working for the company store in basically a slave status.

But in all fairness immigration does go after those who employ,like the big 7-11 bust that just happened,but they are bound by limited resources and can really go after high profile targets that are usually employing hundreds at a time.

But there is still the personal accountability aspect,they are not going over there holding guns to people's heads and forcing them to jump borders.

Yes it is a part of a more complex problem.

[oladub]

aj, I agree and can't think of any politician of either party who campaigned on prosecuting cheating profiteering employers. Even Trump's proposed immigration bill doesn't require E-verify. Were employers incarcerated and billed with educational and other taxpayer expenses incurred by employers' illegal workers' families, they would probably pay more to hire American workers and automate. Many illegal non-citizens would find their own way back home as their jobs dried up. Fewer would come. Demand for US workers would drive up their wages. The resultant increased supply of vacated housing would drive down housing costs in California. Fewer students would allow for better educations for remaining students. Supply/demand would indeed be an elixir for U.S. workers and their families. Dreams of higher wages, more equitable wealth distribution, lower housing prices, better educations and social services, a more ecological future, all long supported by Democrats, would be attained. Even illegal non-citizen workers could be spared some costs if they could legally finger their employers in return paying their way back home and some spending money.

[Richard]

E-Verify is a joke,you can buy packs of 100 SS numbers all day long.

On the other hand there is going to be a lot of Americans questioned when it comes time to collect social security in the future,the target is age 20 to 30 group,so 20 years down the road it is going to get really interesting.

[aj3647]

Well AJ,you ever watch Sanford and Son when Redd grabs his heart and says "it's the Big one"?

That is me actually agreeing with you,up until you get to it is the rich white mans fault.

In the land of opportunity any ethnic background can own business and employ illegals.

I know lots of ethnic contractors that employ illegals,actually in most parts around here it is the same ethnicity employing and abusing immigrants.

On a smaller scale, sure. You might have a Chinese restaurant employing half a dozen undocumented Mexicans, for example. But on a macro scale? Who are the people making MILLIONS off of it? Remember when Tyson Foods got busted back in 2001 for smuggling in people from Mexico to staff its chicken processing plants? Remember Trump's original pick to be Labor Secretary, Andrew Puzder [[CEO of the Carl's Jr. restaurant chain)? He estimated that as much as 40% of his restaurant workers were undocumented and were working under phony social security numbers. Donald Trump himself used 200 illegal immigrants to help build Trump Tower in the 1980's [[and then stiffed them on their full pay).

Here's an article about how major companies like Target and the H-E-B grocery store chain in Texas simply sub-contract out to firms that they know employ undocumented workers.

https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12...migrant-labor/

Call me crazy, but I don't think it's Mexicans who are running these major corporations.

Put someone like Andrew Puzder or Donald Trump in prison for a year or two for knowingly employing illegal workers and you would see things change. But people like Puzder and Trump don't go to prison for their crimes and they never will. But that Mexican guy you referred to in your post? I bet he went to prison for a long time.

[Honky Tonk]

On a smaller scale, sure. You might have a Chinese restaurant employing half a dozen undocumented Mexicans, for example. But on a macro scale? Who are the people making MILLIONS off of it? Remember when Tyson Foods got busted back in 2001 for smuggling in people from Mexico to staff its chicken processing plants? Remember Trump's original pick to be Labor Secretary, Andrew Puzder [[CEO of the Carl's Jr. restaurant chain)? He estimated that as much as 40% of his restaurant workers were undocumented and were working under phony social security numbers. Donald Trump himself used 200 illegal immigrants to help build Trump Tower in the 1980's [[and then stiffed them on their full pay).

Here's an article about how major companies like Target and the H-E-B grocery store chain in Texas simply sub-contract out to firms that they know employ undocumented workers.

https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12...migrant-labor/

Call me crazy, but I don't think it's Mexicans who are running these major corporations.

Put someone like Andrew Puzder or Donald Trump in prison for a year or two for knowingly employing illegal workers and you would see things change. But people like Puzder and Trump don't go to prison for their crimes and they never will. But that Mexican guy you referred to in your post? I bet he went to prison for a long time.

I totally agree with you. People higher up on the food chain profit the most from non-Union, no benefits, bargain basement labor. It started with immigration looking the other way while migrant workers worked fields and picked USA crops, and soon Hormel and the like thought why not raise our bottom line? Illegal domestic workers have been working in up scale homes for decades.

[aj3647]

I totally agree with you. People higher up on the food chain profit the most from non-Union, no benefits, bargain basement labor. It started with immigration looking the other way while migrant workers worked fields and picked USA crops, and soon Hormel and the like thought why not raise our bottom line? Illegal domestic workers have been working in up scale homes for decades.

The enforcement dynamic is completely backwards. The focus is almost 100% on trying to round up the individual undocumented workers. It's insane. I'll give you a perfect example:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...people-n836531

ICE conducts a coordinated raid of nearly 100 7-Eleven stores across the country. This probably took weeks of planning and preparation and involved a few thousands ICE personnel and cost who knows how much to the American taxpayer. What was the end result? 21 arrests of undocumented workers, or roughly one arrest for every 5 stores raided. Was this a good use of time, money, people, and resources?

This would be akin to fighting a war on drugs by devoting all police resources to tracking down and arresting only individual drug users and giving the manufacturers and traffickers and dealers a complete pass.

It makes sense when you realize that things like the 7-Eleven raids are just publicity stunts, designed to grab a headline and placate a base of Americans who are decidedly anti-immigrant, but in reality accomplishes nothing and is a massive waste of law enforcement resources.

It's not hard to see why it's politically easy to go after poor brown people and not so easy to go after the people getting rich off their labor. In fact, I would argue that the person who is exploiting this labor is worse than the person providing the labor in violation of the law, and yet the hammer comes down on the worker while the employer has little to fear.

[Richard]

The jury of peers found Tyson not guilty,but there is a protection under the corporate viel.

Because we mentioned 7-11 it is only fair to clarify that there is 7-11 corporate stores and 7-11 franchises,the corporate stores had no involvement in the hireing of illegals.

The 7-11 franchises that were effected were middle eastern employment,which is bascialy run the same way as a hood convience store but in a nicer setting.So there was a little more to that then the actual immigration aspect.

[Johnnny5]

Trumps SOTU proposal to more than double the number of young people eligible for DACA, and to offer a path to citizenship [[As opposed to just legal residency) has put the Democrats in a no win situation. They now have to either work with Trump to pass legislation and hand him a huge victory, or they continue to fight and in the process show that legalizing those that were DACA eligible was not their end goal.

[Richard]

I think they will choose the latter,they certainly looked like a bunch of sour pusses that showed no love for their country.

But I admit kudos to Debbie Stabenow and the few Democrats that did show their love for their country and stood up to show it,I can imagine they got an earful afterwords from their fellow party members.

Between her and Duggan that is two Dems in Michigan that seem to be more people oriented verses party,we need more politicians like them on both sides.

[aj3647]

Trumps SOTU proposal to more than double the number of young people eligible for DACA, and to offer a path to citizenship [[As opposed to just legal residency) has put the Democrats in a no win situation.

I'll wait until I see Republicans introduce actual legislation that will double the eligibility for DACA and offer a path to citizenship. Until then, it's just another Trump lie as far as I'm concerned.

Here's some other things Trump said in the SOTU and how they compare to actual reality:

Trump: The U.S. is a net energy exporter
Reality: The U.S. is a net energy importer

Trump: We've corrected our trade imbalance with China
Reality: Trade imbalance with China actually increased 14% over the past year

Trump: The tax cut was the biggest in history
Reality: It was the fourth-biggest. Reagan's cuts were bigger.

Trump: Real wages are rising after years of stagnation
Reality: Wage growth is barely keeping pace with inflation

Trump: Took credit for a new Chrysler plant in Michigan
Reality: Chrysler made that decision over a year before Trump announced he was running for President

[Johnnny5]

I'll wait until I see Republicans introduce actual legislation that will double the eligibility for DACA and offer a path to citizenship. Until then, it's just another Trump lie as far as I'm concerned.

Here's some other things Trump said in the SOTU and how they compare to actual reality:

Trump: The U.S. is a net energy exporter
Reality: The U.S. is a net energy importer

Trump: We've corrected our trade imbalance with China
Reality: Trade imbalance with China actually increased 14% over the past year

Trump: The tax cut was the biggest in history
Reality: It was the fourth-biggest. Reagan's cuts were bigger.

Trump: Real wages are rising after years of stagnation
Reality: Wage growth is barely keeping pace with inflation

Trump: Took credit for a new Chrysler plant in Michigan
Reality: Chrysler made that decision over a year before Trump announced he was running for President

Yep, politicians exaggerate and they sometimes flat out lie. President Obama did so, and President Trump has stepped it up to a whole new level. That doesn't change the fact that Trump's expanded DACA proposal is a game changer [[even if the Republicans in the legislature totally ignore it). If the administration plays their cards right this has the potential to completely flip the narrative over DACA and declaw the Democrats on the immigration issue. I believe we may quickly end up in a situation where Trump is publicly fighting to expand DACA and add a path to citizenship [[Or at the least pretending to do so) and Democrats are fighting against it.