Hart Plaza - revival ?

[O3H]

Will the Hart Plaza ever get the facelift it deserves ?

https://detroit.curbed.com/2012/3/26...-redevelopment

Some have labeled it :
""a paved expanse devoid of things to do""

[O3H]

With the fountain turned off :
"“Not fun unless you visit during an event”"

Does anyone really remember Isamu Noguchi ?

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti..._Michigan.html

[SammyS]

That pic of the city is from around mid to late 90's

[bust]

This again.

Does anyone really remember Isamu Noguchi ?

Yes, we do.

https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...812#post532812

How about basic maintenance first?

The biggest improvement possible for Hart Plaza would come from addressing the so many issues that, with the singular exception of the river, surround it.

[O3H]

Well it is almost 2018 .......................so a 2009 thread is ancient

Why is Hart Plaza always overlooked, marginalized, etc ????

Should ALL that concrete be broken, torn out and sod put in, basically soften the "feel" of that venue for better public interaction ?

[bust]

Why is Hart Plaza always overlooked, marginalized, etc ????

Should ALL that concrete be broken, torn out and sod put in, basically soften the "feel" of that venue for better public interaction ?

It has certainly been neglected.

To address its neglect get caught up on maintenance;
Plan much better programming;
Create a more symbiotic immediate urban context.

There is great potential to better utilize what already exists.
Thoughtfully consider what Noguchi had in mind.
A lot of people like his ideas.
Try that first before scrapping it and starting over.

[Gistok]

Well it is almost 2018 .......................so a 2009 thread is ancient.

No... that thread is only 3 months old... Original Poster Eastside Al who has a Join Date of 2009 is ancient.

[MrMichigan]

Well it is almost 2018 .......................so a 2009 thread is ancient

Why is Hart Plaza always overlooked, marginalized, etc ????

Should ALL that concrete be broken, torn out and sod put in, basically soften the "feel" of that venue for better public interaction ?

Definitely. I wonder if they could make some sort of a man-made bay and create a beach there.

[southen]

Definitely. I wonder if they could make some sort of a man-made bay and create a beach there.

They are putting a beach in near Stroh's River Place. It isn't a traditional beach since the currents of the Detroit River are too strong but you will be able to play in the sand. I am sure the same problem would limit things in Hart Plaza.

[ABetterDetroit]

Did The City of Detroit find 300 Million dollars between the couch cushions since the last time this was brought up?

They don't have the money and it would be irresponsible to make this a priority now. If a non profit wants to step to the plate then great, other than that do some maintenance and use it the way it is.

[hybridy]

Simply put, Hart Plaza is an asset Detroit can monetize just as they have done with Campus Maritus. The city should parter was the riverfront conservancy, corporate donors, and other philanthropists to envision and redevelop the plaza. By utilizing Mariners Church, the Ren Cen, Port of Detroit, Cobo and Noguchi Fountain as anchors Hart Plaza can be a vibrant year round destination. Additional civic, restaurant & retail are key [[temp and permanent). The city should also add additional underground parking capacity, as the CBD is experiencing a significant 9-5 parking crunch [[revenue stream) - detroit will always be a commuter town [[until crime and schools are fixed). Maurice Cox knows all this, and with office workers, growing resident population, conventioneers and tourists/festivals there is a captive audience. I spent all summer looking at and jogging along the river...it’s packed all day long. Ownership and funding are the problem...if it’s allowed to be developed by DG, it’ll be big drama. The city needs a partner, with vision, wear with all and deep pockets. As things go in the D...dragged kicking and screaming

[O3H]

Sooooo there are no power brokers like Gilbert , Ilitch, etc., etc. who want that space and can find a way to profit from it ---- interesting indeed.

It's better to have stadiums with high priced food, drink, and ticket prices via the taxpayers dime then to have a "space" revitalized downtown.....hmmmm , hypocrisy, irony, and a few other choice adjectives

Detroit is a water city, a port city, and International river sharing city.

http://detroitriverfront.org/riverfr...ont/hart-plaza

GOOGLE

https://goo.gl/maps/CR5xM7Y7xUU2

[hybridy]

Sooooo there are no power brokers like Gilbert , Ilitch, etc., etc. who want that space and can find a way to profit from it ---- interesting indeed.

It's better to have stadiums with high priced food, drink, and ticket prices via the taxpayers dime then to have a "space" revitalized downtown.....hmmmm , hypocrisy, irony, and a few other choice adjectives

Detroit is a water city, a port city, and International river sharing city.

http://detroitriverfront.org/riverfr...ont/hart-plaza

GOOGLE

https://goo.gl/maps/CR5xM7Y7xUU2

I was thinking more along the lines of Kresge Foundation, Ford Foundation and Ralph C Wilson Jr Foundation

[O3H]

I won't dismiss the philanthropic entities one bit, they are welcome as well

[EastsideAl]

No... that thread is only 3 months old... Original Poster Eastside Al who has a Join Date of 2009 is ancient.

...And getting ancienter and ancienter by the minute, it seems these days. But, yes, I started that thread in September of 2017 in reaction to my experiences at the most recent Detroit Jazz Festival.

As for Isamu Noguchi, that he was one of the major artists [[and landscape architects, furniture designers, theatrical designers, etc.) of the 20th century is really beyond question. But what that means, or should mean, for the future of our treatment of our largest example of his work, and what we may choose to do with it to both respect it and keep it functional for our needs, is a much wider question. One that should be open to public debate, and not part of some dictatorial 'we know what's good for you' [[based on what's trendy right now in our profession) planning process.

But, beyond the future planning questions, and the financial questions it may entail, we have a big plaza that's crumbling into uselessness at this moment. As I said in that other thread, what is immediately, and desperately, needed right now is some serious maintenance action. We really need to stabilize and keep usable what is there now, address things that have been falling apart or left non-functional for years, and do it asap.

One action that I think would move affirmatively in that direction is to remove the Plaza from parks administration and maintenance, and get it into a situation more like Campus Martius or Riverwalk. So that Hart Plaza can be treated separately as a vital asset, and maybe moved more towards a public/private situation, or some form of non-profit foundation funding.

O2H is absolutely correct that it is a place that has been ignored and left to slide for far too long, and given the Plaza's central location and potential, we really can't continue to just ignore it, but have to act to at least arrest the decay now.

[O3H]

I bet roaming the streets of Detroit for 1 week, asking thousands of Detroiters and others - that less than a handful can come up with the name
--- "Noguchi"

The Trip Advisor comments are revealing -

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti..._Michigan.html

Reading through them gives an insight to Hart Plaza

[EastsideAl]

I bet roaming the streets of Detroit for 1 week, asking thousands of Detroiters and others - that less than a handful can come up with the name
--- "Noguchi"

The Trip Advisor comments are revealing -

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti..._Michigan.html

Reading through them gives an insight to Hart Plaza

Yes, but that's not really the criteria for who is or is not considered to be an important artist or architect. I'll be you'd get the same public reaction if you brought up the names Wirt Rowland or C. Howard Crane, or perhaps even Albert Kahn. Yet there's no doubt about their importance to our local built landscape. And I'm certain you would draw blanks if you brought up the names of almost any important modernist artist other than Picasso or Warhol, or even non-modernist artists important to this area like Marshall Fredericks.

It seems weird to have to talk about the importance of an artist who anyone could now look up on the internet, but here goes. Noguchi's works are in the collections of most major museums around the U.S. and the world, especially those that concentrate on modern or 20th century art. His fusion of Western modernist ideas and forms, Japanese aesthetics, and materials and designs drawn from nature make his work unique and impactful. He learned from or collaborated with a huge range of artists and creative people, including Gutzon Borglum, Constantin Brancusi, Arshile Gorky, Diego Rivera, Buckminster Fuller, Louis Kahn, Martha Graham, and Merce Cunningham.

His landscape architecture work can be found throughout the world, from the UNESCO Gardens in Paris, to the Bayfront Park in Miami, to his big 400 acre park in Sapporo Japan. There are several of his murals and other site-specific architectural art pieces that can be found in prominent buildings. Several pieces of his furniture design are still being produced and sold today, including the landmark Noguchi glass table long produced right here in Michigan by Herman Miller.

He is one of the few American artists to have an entire museum dedicated solely to his work [[the Noguchi Museum and Gardens in NYC). And with the Noguchi Garden Museum in Takamatsu Japan, one of the very few artists anywhere to have 2 institutions completely dedicated to his works.

OK, enough art history. Just accept that he was a well-known, important, and deeply respected artist and designer and move on from there.

[Jason]

The operation of Hart Plaza is a disaster. The lack of basic maintenance. Poorly thought out additions and alterations [[maybe they should have hired someone to solve those problems elegantly rather than throwing a bunch of utility boxes/poles and vents everywhere). Complete lack of programming except for the big summer events.

The design of Hart Plaza is definitely not a disaster. If it were operated and maintained like it should have been I think Hart Plaza would be a point of pride. It's not perfect, but I think the design as it was built only had a few real problems, and I think those problems are very solvable. The rest is just doing small things to enhance what is already there. Even today after being ran into the ground, most of the physical work is still just catching up with maintenance and having attention to detail.

I bet roaming the streets of Detroit for 1 week, asking thousands of Detroiters and others - that less than a handful can come up with the name
--- "Noguchi"

I think if you gave a few thousand Detroiters a brief bio of Noguchi and said "Hart Plaza was designed by one of the best designers in the world at that time, and then the City of Detroit ran it into the ground. Should Hart Plaza be fixed or replaced?" I think most people would prefer fixing it.

All they know is that when they went to Hart Plaza it was a dump, and so to them replacing it seems reasonable. And I don't blame them for that, because their job is to go there and enjoy it, not to mull over the design.

[O3H]

Straight and to the point -
All they know is that when they went to Hart Plaza
it was a dump, and so to them replacing it seems reasonable.

Jason nailed the sentiment

[EastsideAl]

Straight and to the point -
All they know is that when they went to Hart Plaza
it was a dump, and so to them replacing it seems reasonable.

Which still doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.

As Jason says, a whole bunch of basic maintenance, and the moving or removal of some of the most glaring additions and alterations, would go a very long ways towards making the plaza useful again and more attractive to the public. And better and much more consistent programming would certainly serve to attract them there.

That would be a good start, before we start reconfiguring or redesigning the plaza itself. I agree with Jason that any problems with the design are not huge at all, and should not be too difficult to address. But first we need the funding and a commitment from the city, or someone, to repair and reasonably maintain the place.

[archfan]

...I think if you gave a few thousand Detroiters a brief bio of Noguchi and said "Hart Plaza was designed by one of the best designers in the world at that time, and then the City of Detroit ran it into the ground. Should Hart Plaza be fixed or replaced?" I think most people would prefer fixing it.

I would bet most Detroiters would say 'Spend the money fixing the park in my neighborhood, not some park downtown.'

That's why EastsideAl's suggestion of transferring Hart to the Downtown Detroit Partnership makes sense. DDP is a public/private organization that runs Campus Martius and all the other downtown parks except Hart. Another possibility would be the Riverfront Conservancy, if they're willing to coordinate with DDP. Getting private money to help maintain Hart may be the only politically feasible way to go.

[hybridy]

http://docomomo-us.org/news/the-litt...t-s-hart-plaza

Following critical acclaim of his dramatic Osaka Fountains at Expo ’70 in Osaka, Japan, Noguchi was commissioned by the city of Detroit to design a $2 million fountain in honor of American automotive innovator, Horace E. Dodge, Sr., and his son. Before long, Noguchi was consulting the firm of Smith, Hynchman & Grylls on the design of the entire plaza. The two-level plaza is paved in carnelian granite and centers on Noguchi’s impressive Dodge Fountain, a polished steel behemoth shaped like an up-turned wing nut. The fountain was originally programed to perform a series of thirty-three patterns of spray from its 300 water jets, offering a visual spectacle for the city where children could play on hot summer days.
Inviting pedestrians to the space, a twisted pylon rises 120-feet into the air at the base of downtown’s radial plan. The plaza features playful topography, including a massive ziggurat at the eastern edge that overlooks a subterranean amphitheater, surprising circular dips in the main plaza, and an underground concession level that is accessed by a broad arc of shallow stairs.

Since its opening in 1978, the plaza has seen the addition of lighting [[which Noguchi adamantly opposed), security cameras, cell phone antennas, and the 2003 monument, Transcending, The Legacy of the Labor Movement, all of which have severely detracted from Noguchi’s original design. Alicia Minter, Director of the City of Detroit Recreation Department, explained that there are conceptual plans to change the physical design of the Hart Plaza and create more green open space to transition to the riverfront. She writes that “It is a hard surface plaza with small amounts of green space. It requires a tremendous amount of capital for ADA compliance and general improvements.” While these tentative plans are not currently available, it is hard to believe that a new lawn would complement Noguchi’s design – which only included sparse groves of trees at the plaza’s perimeter – not to mention survive the harsh Midwestern winters. Green landscaping is also hardly ideal for the volume of traffic generated by events such as the hugely popular Movement Electronic Music Festival, which takes place over the course of a week early in the summer, with over 100,000 visitors to the plaza. Noguchi’s granite paving, on the other hand, has survived over three decades in shockingly good condition.
In 2012, AIA Detroit’s Urban Priorities Committee held its annual international “Detroit by Design” competition, focusing on the city’s waterfront. The objective was: Amazing and Connected, emphasizing the need for physical, visual and historic connectivity and new ideas, but the literature for competitors lacked contextual background for thoughtful and transformative design, and adequate reference to the value of the Noguchi design. The competition received 174 entries from architectural firms and artists across the globe proposing creative, although rarely rational, approaches to how to reactivate the urban edge of Detroit. Winning submissions were selected by a jury comprised of the architect Daniel Libeskind, the landscape architect Walter Hood, Cranbrook Academy of Art and Museum Director Reed Kroloff, Detroit Riverfront Conservancy President Faye Alexander Nelson, and the Toronto-based architect Lola Sheppard. Of the six winning entries, only one was from the United States – by Atelier WHY of Jersey City. The proposed designs were largely exercises in creative thinking to offer innovate approaches to the longstanding issues surrounding the waterfront and broader issues of Detroit as a whole, and were clearly not founded in experience or understanding of the existing site but, rather, as a stage for radical design. This competition shows the growing international recognition of Detroit’s urban planning challenges, but aimed for a carte blanche approach rather than embracing the distinctive extant resources on the waterfront, such as Hart Plaza.

At a mere 34 years old, Hart Plaza is already perceived as a relic of our past. When constructed, the plaza was hailed as a cultural landmark that helped to fortify a new post-war identity for the city of Detroit. It was designed primarily as a congregational space to act as the heart of the city’s civic activity, while allowing downtown workers a space to relax during the week, demonstrating Noguchi’s interest in the themes of leisure and ritual. Initially commissioned with pride and opened with great ceremony, today the plaza is severely underused and simply derelict, but above that it remains one of Noguchi’s largest and most unusual works in his diverse oeuvre.

[gnome]

I'll triple-dog-dare ya to ask 10 folks who was Hart Plaza named after, or why.

The City is filled with spaces and designs that are much different vis-a-vis they original plan.

The Woodward Plan

Belle Isle

Capital Park

Owen Park

Palmer Park

To name just a few spaces that are much different.

The entire Civic Center complex is a total garbled mess when compared to the sparkling vision envisioned by its planners. Cobo, Veterans Memorial Building, City/County... different.

[O3H]

""a relic of the past """ -- how absolutely perfect -- the internet shines on

[hybridy]

well I believe the amazon pitch is bringing to light many plans that are already in motion

here are the Hart Plaza plans:




https://twitter.com/_TylerTheTyler_/...22320945496064

https://twitter.com/ChadLivengood/st...59797323657217