Hart Plaza - revival ?

[southen]

Yeah this looks far too thought out to not be part of the long term plan.

[EastsideAl]

well I believe the amazon pitch is bringing to light many plans that are already in motion

here are the Hart Plaza plans

Wow, that's a horrendous vision. It retains essentially no parts of the original design, looks like it would end the purpose of Hart Plaza as a civic space for large public events, and adds that big 'processional' space down the middle that looks like just the sort of dumb 'heroic' parks design that Soviets and Fascists built around Europe, ending in that steep staircase to the river. And it looks like it gets rid of the tunnel and puts a street through again right by the river [[see the cars parked by the riverfront).

An extremely conventional design that removes all of the uniqueness and spatial interest the space possesses, and replaces it with something that's just downright bland and boring. All dominated by some ill-placed corporate tower, which seems to be going in the wrong direction in de-privatizing our waterfront.

[EastsideAl]

At least the Hart Plaza redevelopment plans that were booted around a few years ago maintained the purpose, usefulness, and coherence of the space. And it retained at least enough of the Noguchi/SH&G original design to serve as a recognizable legacy.

I didn't like it a whole lot, but it's still much superior to that plan that hybridy posted:


Hart Plaza Redevelopment Plans Found:
https://detroit.curbed.com/2012/3/26...-redevelopment

[hybridy]

Wow, that's a horrendous vision. It retains essentially no parts of the original design, looks like it would end the purpose of Hart Plaza as a civic space for large public events, and adds that big 'processional' space down the middle that looks like just the sort of dumb 'heroic' parks design that Soviets and Fascists built around Europe, ending in that steep staircase to the river. And it looks like it gets rid of the tunnel and puts a street through again right by the river [[see the cars parked by the riverfront).

An extremely conventional design that removes all of the uniqueness and spatial interest the space possesses, and replaces it with something that's just downright bland and boring. All dominated by some ill-placed corporate tower, which seems to be going in the wrong direction in de-privatizing our waterfront.

you aren't thrilled by all the pastey Amazon nerds on the "grand sunbathing lawn'?

in all seriousness, I suspect this isn't the final plan, however there are elements of this plan that are indicating design intent

[bust]

well I believe the amazon pitch is bringing to light many plans that are already in motion

here are the Hart Plaza plans:




https://twitter.com/_TylerTheTyler_/...22320945496064

https://twitter.com/ChadLivengood/st...59797323657217

I do not have time to find the words to express how much I hate this proposal.

It would only have merit were it an example of exactly what Detroit ought not to do.

Better be a joke.

[EGrant]

I do not have time to find the words to express how much I hate this proposal.

It would only have merit were it an example of exactly what Detroit ought not to do.

Better be a joke.

What specifically?

[SammyS]

I like the vision. Melbourne did something similar with an underutilized patch of land close to the city. It's called the Docklands and it only took a few years.

Here's the before

Attachment 34784

and after.
Attachment 34785

[Jason]

In the other thread I thought it was just a conceptual rendering, but yeah these additional images have particular elements called out, and space in the submission is dedicated to it.

The new design is pretty terrible though.

It just replaces the whole thing with a flat rectangle of grass. Grass is not activated or engaging, it's just grass. Otherwise every suburban corporate campus would have employees lounging and frolicking on their vast lawns. [[and yes the grass will be mud 90% of the time)

Except saying that it's being replaced by a grass rectangle would be a little misleading because I think it would actually be replaced with an underground parking garage for the office building...


I do think it's conceptual though. Demolishing and rebuilding Hart Plaza, relocating Dodge Fountain [[and its underground pump room) and the Pylon, and demolishing the ren cen garage, would be too expensive for amazon to pay just to have a midrise office building. And it's too expensive and politically infeasible for the city of detroit to replace Hart Plaza with an Amazon's front lawn and parking garage.

[O3H]

Until something is actually signed, sealed, delivered - it's a WISH LIST.

[EastsideAl]

Except saying that it's being replaced by a grass rectangle would be a little misleading because I think it would actually be replaced with an underground parking garage for the office building...

Frankly, I hadn't thought of the parking garage angle. But that makes a lot more sense of certain aspects of this [[hideous) plan. Like the elimination of any amphitheaters or other significant public gathering spot, or the very awkward re-siting of the fountain.

It also makes the whole stupid thing even worse.

[O3H]

Did anyone mention the whole impervious surface rain runoff issue ?
---- stir the pot, watch it boil over, make the whole stove sticky mess

[Gsgeorge]

Perhaps its time to dig up this old proposal by Saarinen...

[O3H]

I doubt we'll see anything really change in the near future.
Serious investment is needed and its tough to please "everyone".

[Detroitdave]

...And getting ancienter and ancienter by the minute, it seems these days. But, yes, I started that thread in September of 2017 in reaction to my experiences at the most recent Detroit Jazz Festival.

As for Isamu Noguchi, that he was one of the major artists [[and landscape architects, furniture designers, theatrical designers, etc.) of the 20th century is really beyond question. But what that means, or should mean, for the future of our treatment of our largest example of his work, and what we may choose to do with it to both respect it and keep it functional for our needs, is a much wider question. One that should be open to public debate, and not part of some dictatorial 'we know what's good for you' [[based on what's trendy right now in our profession) planning process.

But, beyond the future planning questions, and the financial questions it may entail, we have a big plaza that's crumbling into uselessness at this moment. As I said in that other thread, what is immediately, and desperately, needed right now is some serious maintenance action. We really need to stabilize and keep usable what is there now, address things that have been falling apart or left non-functional for years, and do it asap.

One action that I think would move affirmatively in that direction is to remove the Plaza from parks administration and maintenance, and get it into a situation more like Campus Martius or Riverwalk. So that Hart Plaza can be treated separately as a vital asset, and maybe moved more towards a public/private situation, or some form of non-profit foundation funding.

O2H is absolutely correct that it is a place that has been ignored and left to slide for far too long, and given the Plaza's central location and potential, we really can't continue to just ignore it, but have to act to at least arrest the decay now.

BINGO ! You hit the nail right on the head. First and most important thing is to remove the plaza form the parks adminstiation! anything they touch is horrible. There's not one park they control that is decent. They ruin everything they touch. I wouldn't trust them with a dog park, let alone a city park. Honestly they are useless and needs to be disbanded. they are a waste of taxpayers money.

[O3H]

People with that new Belle Isle experience seem to like it quite a bit.
Clean, patrolled, renovated, it's nice again
https://www.michigan.org/property/belle-isle-park

[Detroitdave]

Perhaps its time to dig up this old proposal by Saarinen...

THAT... IS.. AMAZING !
That is so cool ! I enjoy seeing what original plans they had for the city.
It seems they were really reaching back to europe for inspiration


Of course not as grand, but we get the idea.

[O3H]

Show us the money.................no $, no buildings.

[Jason]

The plan overlayed with today's Detroit, and Detroit in 1924.





A few interesting notes about the first Saarinen design:

- Woodward and Randolph ramp downwards and continue underneath the plaza.

- Current day Franklin [[labeled Wilson on the drawing) is expanded into a wide avenue which continues under the plaza [[like Atwater does today) and presumably connects with the other underground roads. There's also underground parking and a subway station [[getting ahead of themselves...).

- The central feature of the plaza is a large rectangular opening to the avenue below, which is ironic considering that the intrusion of the freeway is one of the main problems with the plaza today.

- This plan contains all of the programmatic elements of future plans and today's civic center. There's a City-County Building [[in this plan city "or" county building) which is a tall tower and midrise combo [[built). There's a veterans memorial building [[built [[for WW2, not WW1), currently used by the UAW). There's an auditorium [[built and demolished), and an exhibition hall [[built). While the City-County Building is a reasonable size the exhibition hall [[a recent invention) and even the auditorium are laughably small.

- In future Saarinen plans, the buildings lining the plaza to the north are to be various government buildings. In real life this intention was not kept to. In this plan the buildings are ambiguous except for their massing which serves to enclose the plaza. But the massings here are very thick but not thick enough to insert light wells, making these massings unrealistic.

- The tunnel was opened in 1930, and so it doesn't exist here. However, it doesn't seem to exist in any of the Saarinen's post war plaza plans either... [["opps")

- While the overall size of this plaza is huge [[seriously), it's long and narrow, and as a result, downtown is a full block closer to the plaza. Jefferson is not widened in the plan, and the new buildings open directly onto the plaza, with no roads in between. Buildings of interest to the public are put on the river side of the plaza rather than in downtown, giving a reason for people to cross through the plaza. Overall it's much less isolated.

- The tower in this plan is reminiscent of Saarinen's submission for the Chicago Tribune competition. He moved to Chicago from Finland [[1923) after the submission generated interest, and then moved here [[1924) to be a professor at U of M. This plan is from 1924.

- These drawings were published in an architecture magazine. I don't know if Saarinen was actually asked to design this or if he just did it on his own [[I suspect he did it on his own). On his own he did a thematically similar design for Chicago when he moved there. He did plans for Helsinki for their planning department beforehand but they weren't built, and he entered a competition for Canberra Australia but didn't win.

[Gsgeorge]

Here are the later 1947 Saarinen/Pilafian plans... Markedly different from his first concept some 20 years earlier. Sorry for the shamefully mediocre quality, these are huge, and I had to photograph them instead of scan. These are from the 1950 Master Plan document.

[DeLemur]

Straight and to the point -
All they know is that when they went to Hart Plaza
it was a dump, and so to them replacing it seems reasonable.

Jason nailed the sentiment

Not a dump at all. Its really a well designed space for entertainment and just needs to be maintained and spruced up a bit. Add a little more green perhaps. Just needs revitalization, not overhaul.

[O3H]

It needs a renovation/rethink to avoid that harsh contrast of concrete stone bareness when there are no festivals, events, etc. going on.

I don't share the sentiment of "well-designed" at all.
The fountain eats up a tremendous of space that isn't all that enticing.
https://images.fineartamerica.com/im...-bill-cobb.jpg

It's almost as if, the entertainment should be, where the fountain is.

[Hypestyles]

So who would be the financiers if Hart Plaza were to get a drastic makeover? Would community residents have input for suggestions of design, amenities?

[takascar]

I do not have time to find the words to express how much I hate this proposal.

It would only have merit were it an example of exactly what Detroit ought not to do.

Better be a joke.

I like it. All of that concrete is depressing. We need more green space!. Having spent a lot of time at HP, working in food service for various events, I welcome some green. The place was brutally hot in the summer - the concrete and granite just reflected the heat like a ceramic oven.

I guess we're stuck with the fountain - people seem to be fond of it, more because its an old friend we liked to make fun of [[doughnut on stilts). The best use for that thing that I ever saw was about 30 people sitting in the basin of it after getting drunk at a German festival and singing German beer hall songs.

Again, we wanted to apologize for the internment camps during WW II and many liberal cities hired Japanese folks to make art as a way to "pay them back" for what was done to them. That's what this was all about. It was in the papers and widely known back in those days.

I think we should have skipped the ugly art and given them more than $20g's that they each got - most of them lost way more than that, when you count interest, as well as years of their lives.

Oh well...

[southen]

Again, we wanted to apologize for the internment camps during WW II and many liberal cities hired Japanese folks to make art as a way to "pay them back" for what was done to them. That's what this was all about. It was in the papers and widely known back in those days.

Jesus. Isamu Noguchi is well regarded worldwide as a designer and artist and played a large part during the modernist movement. This wasn't a charity case. It's an honor to have his work in the city.

[dtowncitylover]

Again, we wanted to apologize for the internment camps during WW II and many liberal cities hired Japanese folks to make art as a way to "pay them back" for what was done to them. That's what this was all about. It was in the papers and widely known back in those days.

Wow ok. Have any proof? No. Ok.