Museum Puts DSR Streetcar Up for Sale

[Sandhouse]

The Ohio Railway Museum is deaccessioning some items it can no longer care for, and that includes Detroit Street Railways Peter Witt car No. 3876. This is one two surviving standard Detroit streetcars from the mid-1920s. The car is listed for sale for $15,000 at the web site of railroad equipment broker Ozark Mountain Railcar, at
http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/...ilway_3876.htm

The car is presumably located at the Museum in the Columbus suburb of Worthington, Ohio, just off Proprietor's Road.

Photos at the web site show the car to have been given a partial restoration in the 1960's and deteriorated quite a bit since then. It appears to need a new wood-and-canvas roof, upholstery, heavy rust repair to its riveted steel carbody, and probably new wood in its interior. Similar work was done to the surviving sister car at the Henry Ford before that car was sold to Illinois Railway Museum a few years ago.

Is anyone willing to repatriate and restore a 50-foot, 20-ton piece of Detroit history? Probably over $100,000 worth of expenditure would be required to restore the car visually, with more needed to make it runable, if there were 600-volt trolley track and overhead available. The Michigan Transit Museum in Mount Clemens is probably not in a position to take this on. Ideally someone with money, access to a disused secure industrial shop, and friends with metalworking ability, would acquire this car against the time when a place can be found to exhibit it in its home town.

[digitalvision]

What a find! Either the Henry Ford or the Historical Museum should pick up this piece - the Henry Ford has more in-house restoration resources, however. I would gladly volunteer to work on that ol' girl.

[irish_mafia]

Does it have Peter Smith heater in it?

[DetroitScooter]

Jeeze, thanks for your kind stewardship of this streecar, Ohio Railway Museum. I guess that "leaving it outside to rot" is in your charter? Unbelievable.
Does anyone know why the Henry Ford choose to get rid of the other 1920's streecar? It seems like a good thing to hang on to, and they most likely would not have left it outside to rot/deteriorate like the other remaining one seems to have been.

[cman710]

You might want to talk to someone at the Model T Automotive Heritage Complex, Inc. [[The "T-Plex"), the folks who run the Ford Piquette Museum. While this does not fit within what they do, they are very connected within the preservation community and might have some ideas. If you would like the name of someone to contact there, let me know.

[HazenPingree]

This is one two surviving standard Detroit streetcars from the mid-1920s.

Actually, I was looking at the listing, and it says that this particular street car was built in 1931:

Built in 1931 by St. Louis Car Co for the Detroit Street Railway as a 52 seat street car. Retired in 1954 and sold into private ownership. One of the unique features of the car is it's rounded rear end with large windows. Some of the mechanical details include: 48.6' L, 8.6' W, 10.2' H, 37,200 lbs, seats 52 passengers, standard gauge, 140 HP, 600 volts, GE265A traction motors.

[Baselinepunk]

No kidding about this item being a nice find. Just getting that item in a stable environment will go a long way at minimum. Considering the historical context of our region, I would be very surprised if this item was not quickly accessioned and restored locally.

Perhaps even an exchange of items between the two repositories, instead of the monetary means, might be an idea as well if the price is too steep? I'm sure we must have something of value around here for those folks south of us ...

[LodgeDodger]

You might want to talk to someone at the Model T Automotive Heritage Complex, Inc. [[The "T-Plex"), the folks who run the Ford Piquette Museum. While this does not fit within what they do, they are very connected within the preservation community and might have some ideas. If you would like the name of someone to contact there, let me know.

TPLEX cars are privately owned. ;-)

[tahleel]

I wonder how much D-DOT Buses will go for in 80 years. Must control the urge to buy retired buses!

-Tahleel

[reddog289]

That would look good in my backyard.

[Detroitnerd]

Henry Ford has the resources. Then again, at their prices, I may never see it!

[Retroit]

Jeeze, thanks for your kind stewardship of this streecar, Ohio Railway Museum. I guess that "leaving it outside to rot" is in your charter? Unbelievable.

It looks like the car was wrapped in the black tarp covering that is laying on the ground at each end [[like the 2 other cars in the first photo).

{Let's not be too quick to condemn those who have taken on the difficult and often unrewarding task of preserving history.}

[DetroitScooter]

It looks like the car was wrapped in the black tarp covering that is laying on the ground at each end [[like the 2 other cars in the first photo).

{Let's not be too quick to condemn those who have taken on the difficult and often unrewarding task of preserving history.}

Except that they haven't really preserved it. My friend's pole barn preserves stuff better than this museum.

[Rocko]

The Peter Witt from the Ohio Museum is Peter Witt #3876, painted in the later attractive Maroon and Creme DSR scheme.



I would say that the Henry Ford is NOT the place to send this important piece of Detroit's Transit History. They had their shot with Witt #3865, which sat out in the elements for several years following its acquisition, and thank goodness for the Illinois Railway Museum for completely restoring the exterior of this car. Streetcars, and interurbans were important here in Michigan. I'm not sure of where the best place for this piece to go, but perhaps the Michigan History Museum is the best place? If only the Detroit Historical Museum could incorporate this piece in some way that would allow them to return the streetcar for some kind of operating use someday.

I've always thought it would be cool to have an old streetcar and turn it into some kind of Detroit tourist center in Hart Plaza or maybe Grand Circus Park, where you could walk inside and pick up brochures, ask questions about tourism and places of interest,etc. If this Peter Witt could not be a candidate... maybe that DSR PCC at the Michigan Transit Museum would be? Just tossing out some ideas...

[Rocko]

I recently visited the Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT, which rekindled some of my interest in streetcars and trolleys. Shore Line has nearly 100 pieces in their collection, many operable, and several undergoing restoration at the current time. The own 1.5 miles of private right of way and operate daily in the summer. Well worth a visit for a moderately to seriously interested person in America's rail transit past. http://www.bera.org/

This piqued my interest as to what happened with old DSR Peter Witt #3876, for sale a year or two back from the Ohio Railway Museum. Turns out it was picked up by the Seashore Trolley Museum up in Maine, one of the preeminent streetcar museums in the county. They plan to restore it to operational condition. Great news! Here's a link:

http://www.trolleymuseum.org/collection/roster.php
http://www.trolleymuseum.org/collect...e/03876SMI.php

[Hermod]

Most museums with stocks of streetcar, railroad, and military equipment have more stuf needing protection or restoration than they have resources available to take necessary care.

Examples include the cruiser Olympia at Philadelphia, the battleship Texas at San Jacinto, and the Ordnance Museum at Aberdeen Proving Ground.

Most railroad museums have a mix of operating equipment, properly housed display equipment, open storage display equipment, open storage equipment needing restoration, and equipment being salvaged for parts. Some of their back lots are pretty depressing.

Does anybody remember the JT Wing schooner at Belle Isle?

Don't condemn volunteers for doing the best they can within the resources available.

.

[Detroitnerd]

Michigan Transit Museum's DSR PCC has been out in the elements for years and few complaints here. Better yet, offer to help!

[Rocko]

It's true! The only DSR PCC preserved in Michigan is right here near Mt. Clemens at the Michigan Transit Museum. They have an interesting assortment of railroad and streetcar equipment on site, including DSR PCC #268, a Toronto TTC PCC car, two locomotives, a South Shore passenger car, several cabooses, and a few other pieces. They're a small but worthwhile organization. Their website seems to be rather out of date. I believe the best way to get more information about their equipment, operations, and what they're working on, stop by their National Register and locally designated historic depot museum along the Grand Trunk Mt. Clemens Subdivision in Mt. Clemens. They're open throughout the year Saturdays and Sundays 1-4PM.

[DetroitPlanner]

If you really care about restoring this, Illinois would be a great place for it. They have top-notch facilities, I've visited this museum a few times. Kenosha might be another alternative as they run historc streetcars and have the proper facilities. http://kenoshastreetcarsociety.org/today.aspx

[douglasm]

Wonder where it's going. OMR lists it as sold. On the other hand, you could pick up a Pittsburgh PCC car for 25 large if you wanted to.

[Rocko]

This piqued my interest as to what happened with old DSR Peter Witt #3876, for sale a year or two back from the Ohio Railway Museum. Turns out it was picked up by the Seashore Trolley Museum up in Maine, one of the preeminent streetcar museums in the county. They plan to restore it to operational condition. Great news! Here's a link:

http://www.trolleymuseum.org/collection/roster.php
http://www.trolleymuseum.org/collect...e/03876SMI.php

Kennebunkport Maine to the Seashore Trolley Museum.

[Rocko]

Kennebunkport Maine to the Seashore Trolley Museum.

I haven't been on this board much lately, but this is still a pertinent and interesting topic! For six months now, I've been one of the few paid staff members at the Shore Line Trolley Museum [[Branford Electric Railway Association) in East Haven/Branford, Connecticut. As the office manager, I see all of the mail coming in, including the newsletters from other trolley and traction museums, which most of these types of establishments tend to exchange on a regular basis.

We recently received Seashore Trolley Museum's latest newsletter and 2010 Annual Report. The Kennebunkport, Maine museum is the largest and oldest electric traction museum in the world, and has a collection of over 200 pieces of trolley and related equipment. They are the ones who purchased DSR Peter Witt 3876 from the Ohio Railway Museum a couple years back. Below is the writeup in their Annual Report about the history, acquisition, and future of one of the few remaining DSR cars in existence.....and the future looks great!

Traditional Detroit Streetcar Acquired by Museum
By Frederick J. Maloney

The acquisition of City of Detroit Department of Street Railways [[DSR) Peter Witt streetcar No. 3876, of 1930, is of particular importance to the development of The National Collection of American Streetcars. For over 50 years Detroit has been, by far, the largest American city not represented in the Museum collection. The city's peak population approached 2 million in 1950, while its street railways peaked in 1930 at 534 track miles and 1776 cars, with almost all of the system within the city limits.

This signature car is one of a huge fleet of 781 two-man single-end Peter Witt cars procured from six carbuilders over 14 orders from 1921 to 1930. No. 3876 is one of 130 cars from the final order, built by St. Louis Car Company. All but the initial 50 cars had various forms of the distinctive Detroit feature of large protruding flat angular front destination signboxes with multiple signs. The later orders also had sun visors.

After World War II No. 3876 was one of a relatively modest number of cars to have center conductor stands removed in conversion to one-man operation. The last few Peter Witt cars were retired in early 1954 In spite of the then-recent modernization of four key routes, conflicted transit policies resulted in the end of streetcar service in 1956. The large PCC car fleet was sold to Mexico City, where most cars ran for over 20 years. Late in 2010 significant federal funding was awarded to Detroit for a planned new light rail line, with mostly streetcar operating characteristics, running along the route of the city's last first generation streetcar line, on Woodward Avenue.

While numerous representative streetcars are preserved from almost all of the country's largest older cities, which had extensive and long-lived street railways, the preservation movement virtually overlooked Detroit. This was in spite of the survival into the post-World War II era of most of the system, with a wide variety of car types in use as passenger or work cars. Only two conventional streetcars survived into preservation. It is ironic that both cars are now in their second post-retirement homes. Indeed, with each car having had an uncertain future, at different times years ago, both survivors had been approved for acquisition by Seashore's Board. The other car, No. 3865, is now at the Illinois Railway Museum, after its initial preservation by the Henry Ford Museum.

No. 3876 was acquired in 1954 by Detroit area transit enthusiasts for preservation at the Ohio Railway Museum [[ORM), in Worthington. The car was nicely restored, and operated for visitors for at least a decade. It was eventually eclipsed by a restored double-end Columbus car which could be operated more easily as the ORM line has no turning loops.

In 2009 ORM deaccessioned No. 3876, and kindly sold the car to Seashore for a reasonable price. In May the car was loaded onto a trailer in a major logistical effort by members of ORM, Shore Line Trolley Museum [[CT), Northern Ohio Railway Museum, and Seashore's rapid transit department. The rig was driven to Maine by legendary streetcar mover Jim Lilly of Philadelphia.

We are very grateful for the large measure of inter-museum expertise and hard work which resulted in the car coming to Seashore. On arrival at the Museum, the car was inspected and cleaned. Although No. 3876 requires heavy restoration, it is fully complete and intact, even though it was out of service for decades at ORM.

The car's primary sponsor has committed to underwriting restoration of the car, with No. 3876 now included in the Society's five-year restoration program. Meanwhile, as a great assist, one of the Society's foremost activists and benefactors, has afforded the car indoor storage space to eliminate the need for full tarping of No. 3876 pending expansion of carhouse space. Thus the Detroit car is available for any degree of inspection or preliminary work by shop staff at any time pending its move to the shop.

A copy of the page from the newsletter with current photo can be viewed here: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...85243289_n.jpg

As someone who sees all the inner workings of an operating trolley museum, any and all interest and donations to help repair and restore vintage streetcars are greatly appreciated!! In my own experience, great things have happened when people have stepped up with their time, talents and money, and beautifully restored operating streetcars are the outcome. Here is Seashore's website: https://www.trolleymuseum.org/. And the Shore Line Trolley Museum's website [[brand new and still under construction): www.shorelinetrolley.org.

Check it out! It's great to see Seashore taking this important Detroit preservation task!