Temps in low 20's - More busted Pipes ?

**O3H** · December-04-17, 12:19 AM

Do you think DWSD/GLWA is on-top-of the "old pipes", making replacements, securing the infrastructure 2020+ ?

Or... is it still we'll wait till everything breaks .......

http://www.detroitmi.gov/How-Do-I/Re...oken-Watermain

http://www.detroitmi.gov/How-Do-I/Mo...ImproveDetroit

Remember this event just a few weeks ago - NO water ???
https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...nty/795934001/

**mikefmich** · December-10-17, 07:24 PM

Underground pipes are not affected by cold weather unless the frost goes down that deep.

For the frost to get down there, you'd need sustained weather well under 20 degrees, AND no snow cover on the ground. Snow on the ground is a great insulator.

**Dumpling** · December-11-17, 02:48 AM

Your ratepayer dollars checking in here!

Actually.

About the underground pipes. Once they are properly aged, they can break simply from having colder water running through them. There does not need to be any freezing or frost present in them or around them. Colder water running through them can cause the pipe to contract then break.

**Dumpling** · December-11-17, 02:54 AM

If there is a pipe that is a dead end, and the water in it freezes at a particular point, the unfrozen water pressure beyond the frozen point
goes way up and that can cause the pipe to break. This is the reason
for allowing a slow drip from a faucet somewhere in your house when temperatures in and around the household plumbing drop below freezing.

**Dumpling** · December-11-17, 03:04 AM

http://archive.dwsd.org/downloads_n/...t_03-26-15.pdf

This handout has some information about the state of the water mains in Detroit and plans to replace them. It appears that water mains to be replaced have experienced nine breaks per thousand feet. Mains are added to the wait list once they are experiencing five breaks per thousand feet.

14 miles out of 2700 miles of water mains in Detroit are to
be replaced in the listed projects in this handout.

It is something of a "rock and a hard place situation" - no one really wants to pay higher water rates but no one really wants numerous
water main breaks and low water pressure in their area either.

**Dumpling** · December-11-17, 03:11 AM

And, yes, when the ground freezes, that increases the pressure on water pipes already susceptible to breaking after having contracted from the colder water running through them.

**Meddle** · December-11-17, 04:26 AM

Why did I know this was an O3 thread before I opened it?

Water freezes below 32 degrees ... who knew?

**Honky Tonk** · December-11-17, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

Why did I know this was an O3 thread before I opened it?

Maybe the posters handle @ the top of the thread gave it away?

**Dumpling** · December-11-17, 06:05 AM

Well this seems to be the original Request For Proposals for
DWSD infrastructure work.

http://www.michmca.org/images/DWSD_RFP_No_CS_1812.pdf

Highlights - the amount to be invested in the near term is in the
range of $300-400 million - the miles of distribution system is
projected to eventually be reduced from 2700 down to 2000.

I could not access the Veolia report that gave data for this RFP.

**Dumpling** · December-11-17, 06:11 AM

AECOM won an initial bid.

https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news...s-will-be-hurt

The initial contract amount that AECOM received for work through
2022 is about $57 million.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/tr...7_576884_7.pdf

This DWSD info is at about page 46 of this pdf.

**Meddle** · December-11-17, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Maybe the posters handle @ the top of the thread gave it away?

For some reason, the version I see never shows that. Or the date posted.

**O3H** · December-11-17, 10:52 AM

Hi Meddle - did you know fresh water sustains life ?
It's the one thing people need more than anything else in the world.

Perhaps when it finally costs the same as gold, you'll appreciate it.

**Ray1936** · December-11-17, 11:35 AM

Once more, a topic that makes me glad I retired to Las Vegas.

**O3H** · December-11-17, 11:36 AM

People really should pay attention to items like this posted by Dumpling

https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news...s-will-be-hurt

Actually watch the news video, and not speed read, gloss over the text.

**hybridy** · December-11-17, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

Once more, a topic that makes me glad I retired to Las Vegas.

I don't envy you...mother nature can't be ignored indefinitely. frankly cities like phoenix and las vegas has no use existing

http://stories.weather.com/thebigdry

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.17883b6aceb8

https://www.newsdeeply.com/water/art...west-right-now

**O3H** · December-12-17, 12:55 AM

DWSD will most honestly raise those water bills in 2018 folks
- that means the suburbs will have to charge more as well....

**Meddle** · December-12-17, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by O3H

Hi Meddle - did you know fresh water sustains life ?
It's the one thing people need more than anything else in the world.

Perhaps when it finally costs the same as gold, you'll appreciate it.

Hey O, didja' know it's FREE? Set out some barrels and collect it as it falls from the sky FREE. Or drive to a lake or river and get all you want FREE.

Now if you want the convenience of getting that FREE substance from your tap, well...

**Ray1936** · December-12-17, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by hybridy

I don't envy you...mother nature can't be ignored indefinitely. frankly cities like phoenix and las vegas has no use existing

Unknown to most of you, we have dropped a 36" pipe line into Lake Michigan just south of Chicago. No problem.

**Dumpling** · December-12-17, 09:30 PM

Ray, you probably know this, but the Las Vegas area has its water
act together for the most part:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/...las-vegas-tap/

The wastewater is "recycled" via the Las Vegas Wash down to Lake Mead
which is the main source [[groundwater is also used) of water for the
Las Vegas area.

**Dumpling** · December-12-17, 09:33 PM

Las Vegas added 2000 miles of water pipe in the years 1997-2007. This is the target miles of pipe for Detroit after it downsizes.

The biggest pumps at the GLWA WRRF are about 3500 hp so Las Vegas'
biggest pumps are larger than those here.

**O3H** · December-13-17, 12:02 AM

So yeah, I actually DO have rain barrels [[plural) at the house. I thoroughly believe if 5 million folks had 50 gallon barrels, it would "slow" down a bit of stormwater surge. Use that free water during dry spells during the week.

**Jimaz** · December-13-17, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

Once more, a topic that makes me glad I retired to Las Vegas.

We're expecting 4-6 inches of snow today, "possibly 8 inches in some places."

Enjoy!

**Ray1936** · December-13-17, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpling

The wastewater is "recycled" via the Las Vegas Wash down to Lake Mead
which is the main source [[groundwater is also used) of water for the
Las Vegas area.

True. However, the water from Lake Mead [[and the groundwater) is extremely hard water. Lot of calcium and other minerals. Most folks have water softeners here; very necessary. We don't have one, but then, we drink only bottled water. Tap water is yuck. I do miss Detroit tap water.

**O3H** · December-18-17, 01:00 AM

Does the DWSD do a "better" job of PR now, than it has in the past ?

**Dumpling** · December-25-17, 02:48 AM

Merry Christmas all of you!

The temps are forecast to stay below freezing for several consecutive
days this week. There will be water main breaks beyond a doubt.
Now is a good time to set aside some utility water in buckets and
carboys in case you will need that & also its a good time to leave a
tiny drip somewhere in your house if your pipes are likely to freeze.

Here we saw the first inkling of water pressure drop & someone out
there has compensated so we are seeing higher water pressure for now.
[[Can see just for the WRRF only, not the whole system, but patterns
and trends at this one location can be seen).