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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by aj3647 View Post
    ...snip...
    While part of this is the Democrats wanting to look tough on sexual harassment, another part is simply that Pelosi and the rest of the leadership wanted to shuffle Mr. Magoo out the door so they can bring in young blood that is motivated and energized.
    Bad behavior will be found on those wearing all political stripes. The Democrats have more to fear, as they position themselves as the savior of women from white-male oppression. Republicans are only acting as expected as evil old white males.

  2. #77

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    Argh... Congress I meant. Yikes--I corrected that post! Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn View Post
    I didn't even remember him getting elected to the Senate!

    But seriously, it is a good thing that he is going. I do think it is the height of ego for someone leaving in scandal and disgrace (and, rest assured, he is leaving in scandal and disgrace) to endorse anyone to replace him, let alone his son.

  3. #78

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    Conyer's son and Coleman's son, hopefully we will get better choices.

  4. #79

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    the 13th district is going to be a free for all. Dem candidates, GOP candidates, others. The flamethrowing is going to be intense.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    Bad behavior will be found on those wearing all political stripes. The Democrats have more to fear, as they position themselves as the savior of women from white-male oppression. Republicans are only acting as expected as evil old white males.
    Democrats pressure their bad apples to resign, Republican rally around theirs and defend/support them. Conyers resigned, Franken will resign today, meanwhile in Alabama, Republicans are about to elect a child molester to the Senate. And we haven't even gotten to President PussyGrabber yet with the 13 women who have accused him of sexual misconduct.

    Yes, both parties have the same problem with sexual harassment, but don't equate how both parties have responded to that problem. I'm sure female voters won't notice the difference in how the Democratic and Republican parties treat their respective sex predators come election day 2018.

  6. #81

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    Nope, no side's particularly pure ala actions, reactions or defenses on this one.

    IMO in some cases the dems as well as the repubs circle-the-wagons in defense of their own. Certainly with Conyers. For example Pelosi did a quick-turn in two days owing to her constituents no doubt! For sure she didn't want to be a look-a-like (as we saw in some cases with even feminists) ala defense of Bill Clinton. A scenario were fewer accusers were taken at their word!

    Detroiter's circled-the-wagons full-out in strong defense of John Conyers. I carrying the water for no politician; it is what it is.

    Especially now that we're entering J'accuse-J'accuse (I Accuse You!) politics, de rigueur. That's the bigger issue BEYOND PARTISAN chest-beating, or bleating.

    And for certain no need for anyone to take pleasure in the undoings, lest it come your way next! This whole thing beyond politics is going to have both positive and negative ramifications in the work place, etc.
    Last edited by Zacha341; December-08-17 at 08:10 AM.

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by aj3647 View Post
    Democrats pressure their bad apples to resign, Republican rally around theirs and defend/support them. Conyers resigned, Franken will resign today, meanwhile in Alabama, Republicans are about to elect a child molester to the Senate. And we haven't even gotten to President PussyGrabber yet with the 13 women who have accused him of sexual misconduct.

    Yes, both parties have the same problem with sexual harassment, but don't equate how both parties have responded to that problem. I'm sure female voters won't notice the difference in how the Democratic and Republican parties treat their respective sex predators come election day 2018.
    Being closer to the red camp than you, I don't see such clear principled actions from the blues. Democrats seem to have ignored Franken/Conyers as much as possible. And from my red chair the Republicans seem to have mostly stayed quiet. Maybe they're rather not see Franken/Conyers pay a price... and the voters then believe that Moore should pay a price as well.

    Rather than a partisan difference here, I see a difference in motivation. The blues have nothing at stake in Frankenland/Conyerville. The replacements will be deep blue. Mooretown has stakes for the reds.

    I'd wait to judge just how honorable everyone is until we see what happens when the Senate is 51/49 and the swing is a certified creep (not a true pedophile where there's little choice).

    So to provide a Detroit angle here, does anyone think its possible for Kilpatrick to have not serially grabbed and harassed?

  8. #83

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    Is the Conyers name an asset or liability? I tend to think the latter and don't see his chosen heir playboy son or even the wannabe nephew as benefitting. A lot of skeletons will get dragged out in the chase for his seat.

  9. #84

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    As for the Dems, they are making the right move in cleaning house and seizing the moral high ground on this issue. This finally gives them the opportunity to remove the onus of Bill Clinton with denouncements of his bad behavior by the likes of Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand.

    Republican will continue to be hobbled by their President and, barring an unlikely upset, Roy Moore.

  10. #85

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    It's simply untrue that Franken's seat is a sure thing for democrats. It was held by a republican before Franken and Franken won his seat in a historically close election that required a recount.

    I don't care what your politics are, Roy Moore is a sociopath who has preyed upon girls for decades.

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by drjeff View Post
    I don't care what your politics are, Roy Moore is a sociopath who has preyed upon girls for decades.
    Yes he did! What a pig he is going to mall's and dance recital's preying on 14 year old girls! And he talks about christian values? Disgusting. And the GOP is cool with it.

    And so, as Franken resigns amid alligations, "a man who bragged on tape about his history of assaulting women is sitting in the oval office".
    Last edited by Maof; December-07-17 at 02:16 PM.

  12. #87

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    A week or two back I thought that John the Younger would be the choice to choose.

    However, consider history for a second.

    In the last presidential primary we had 17 Republicans. 16 candidates were on the sanity spectrum and the other candidate just on the Spectrum.

    Jeb and Lil' Marco and Ted "Al Lewis" Cruz and all the rest pulled in support in the low single or dbl digits; meanwhile, 45 scoots around the bunch and becomes the nominee with numbers that would have left him on the ash heap of history if it would have been any year other than '16.

    Likewise in our last race for Governor the large number of Republicans all fought for the Far Right and that left the middle wide open for an accountant to waltz in as the nominee.

    I predict, the myriad of Conyers, Colemans, Banks, Stallworths, Lemmons, Scotts or Diggs will fight each other tooth and nail thereby allowing Bill Wild or Kneizk to grab the nomination.

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by aj3647 View Post
    Democrats pressure their bad apples to resign, Republican rally around theirs and defend/support them. Conyers resigned, Franken will resign today, meanwhile in Alabama, Republicans are about to elect a child molester to the Senate. And we haven't even gotten to President PussyGrabber yet with the 13 women who have accused him of sexual misconduct.

    Yes, both parties have the same problem with sexual harassment, but don't equate how both parties have responded to that problem. I'm sure female voters won't notice the difference in how the Democratic and Republican parties treat their respective sex predators come election day 2018.
    Did you not see the Conyers "Legion of Doom" rally at the church a few days ago? It was like gathering of Detroit's most diabolical political/religious/activist/hanger on figures.

  14. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowell View Post
    As for the Dems, they are making the right move in cleaning house and seizing the moral high ground on this issue
    Not that I think pushing out Conyers and Franken was the wrong thing to do, particularly as the cases piled up. But "seizing the moral high ground" really only works against your foes if those foes have some morality beyond winning, and enriching themselves, their friends, and others in their class as much as possible.

  15. #90

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    I like what Michelle Goldberg wrote about sexual harassment in the broader context of politics. More voices that were silent (or silenced) on this topic have recently been heard. But so many voices are still silent.

    Franken Is Leaving and Trump Is Still Here
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/o...nt-resign.html

    Her main point: despite the “astonishing number of powerful and famous men who have recently been fired or disgraced”, the only victims with new recourse to speak out are those “whose harassers are either personally or professionally susceptible to shame.”

    “So far, it has been mostly confined to liberal-leaning sectors like entertainment, the media, academia, Silicon Valley and the Democratic Party. It hasn't rocked the Republicans, corporate America or Wall Street — with some exceptions — because these realms are less responsive to feminist pressure.

    Certainly, Fox News has jettisoned men exposed for egregious misconduct, like Roger Ailes and Bill O'Reilly. But the Fox Business anchor Charles Payne is back on the air despite a lawsuit from the former Fox pundit Scottie Nell Hughes, who claims that he raped her. Republicans are not lining up to demand the resignation of Blake Farenthold, the Texas congressman who recently agreed to pay back $84,000 in public money he used to settle a sexual harassment lawsuit by a former employee.”

    Meanwhile Republican Roy Moore looks likely to be the next Senator from Alabama.

    “Moore stands credibly accused of molesting a 14-year-old whom he picked up outside her mother's custody hearing and of sexually assaulting a 16-year-old after offering her a ride home from her waitressing job. Nevertheless, Moore has President Trump's endorsement. The Republican National Committee, which pulled financial support for Moore in November, has restored it. Recent polls show him leading in the special election set for Tuesday.”

    “Then, of course, there's Trump, who has been accused of sexual assault or harassment by over a dozen women” (at least 19 by some counts) “but has faced few consequences. His administration is hostile to sexual harassment victims; in March, for example, he reversed a 2014 Obama administration rule that made it harder for federal contractors to keep sexual harassment and discrimination cases secret.

    The difference with the Democrats is stark. True, Democratic Party leaders initially dithered in their responses to Franken, as well as to John Conyers, the Michigan representative who, like Farenthold, used public funds to pay off a former employee who accused him of sexual harassment. But eventually, the party decided that given its stated beliefs and progressive constituency, keeping accused harassers in office was politically untenable.

    It's not similarly untenable for Republicans, because the Republican Party is not the party of people who are fundamentally opposed to sexual harassment. Democrats, by and large, want their politicians held accountable. Republicans, by contrast, just want Democratic politicians held accountable. In a November HuffPost/YouGov survey, a majority of both Democrats and Republicans said sexual harassment is either a very serious or a somewhat serious problem in the Democratic Party. Only 36 percent of Republicans said the same about the Republican Party. Most Republicans said that Franken should resign, but only 31 percent said Moore should drop out.”

    Republicans, really??? Those numbers are shocking.

    Of course polls may be be wrong. But how else can we explain why Moore seems on his way into the Senate at precisely the same moment Franken is on the way out?

    Members of both parties have sexually harassed. And even more members of both parties deserve criticism for their responses when women (and men) have spoken out. But it does not seem at all like blame is deserved equally. So few republicans have responded admirably to this issue, it begs the sincere question: Does the republican party care about sexual harassment? Or just when it's politically convenient?

    Political calculations seem to have been part of the decision of many democrats to take a principled stance on the issue. But so much better that than what many republicans seem to be doing: following political calculations that guide them to be devoid of principle.

    What can we expect from a party that has sadly been taken over by, well— Just look who's in charge.

    Reminder:

    By some counts at least 19 women have accused Donald Trump of sexual harassment.

    Roger Ailes, who for decades required women to sleep with him as a condition of their employment, promptly after he was finally fired by Fox for his egregious sexual misconduct was hired by Donald Trump as his political advisor.

    And rotten apples fall from rotten trees.

    Donald Trump Jr. said women who “can't handle” sexual harassment “don't belong in the workforce”: “Go teach kindergarten.”

    Name:  Donald-Trump-Jr.jpg
Views: 224
Size:  37.5 KB
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzaetnpZelU

    And so on.

    Sexual harassment is not some fringe social issue. Republicans, is this what you think about it? Is this what you want for our daughters, our wives, our sisters, our mothers? If not, how about holding some of your own accountable for it, for a change?
    Last edited by bust; December-08-17 at 01:38 AM.

  16. #91

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    Hold it. Franken resigned?? The last I heard, he claimed he would resign at some future time, "in the weeks ahead." Like, the day before his term expires?

    Can anyone believe a word the guy says?

  17. #92

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    Moore has denied the claims made against him. Franken more or less admitted the truth of the claims against him.

    Bust, who says "Moore stands credibly accused of the claims against him?" What's credible about any of the claims? He said, she said.

    The good people of Alabama will make the choice based on a lot more information than we have and everybody's just going to have to live with it.

    Moore has run for public office several times I believe, and no one made such allegations. Now, 40 years later, women come forward and make accusations. Why now? I'll believe them when they take polygraphs and I'll believe Moore when he takes one - if either side appears to be telling the truth.

  18. #93

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    This just in. Moore accuser Beverly Young Nelson (client of Gloria Allred) admitted just now that she forged part of a year book inscription attributed to Moore. The yearbook inscription bolstered her claim she knew Moore years ago. Fox News.

    Moore ruled against Nelson in her 1999 divorce. Motive for lying?? After Nelson made her accusation women started coming out of the woodwork with similar claims. Their memories must have been jogged I guess.

  19. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WC View Post
    This just in. Moore accuser Beverly Young Nelson (client of Gloria Allred) admitted just now that she forged part of a year book inscription attributed to Moore. The yearbook inscription bolstered her claim she knew Moore years ago. Fox News.

    Moore ruled against Nelson in her 1999 divorce. Motive for lying?? After Nelson made her accusation women started coming out of the woodwork with similar claims. Their memories must have been jogged I guess.
    There is a mountain of various forms of evidence and Moore hasn't denied going after teenage girls as a man in his thirties. He was banned from a mall for pete's sake. Stop reading your right wing propaganda and use your damn brain. It's frankly pathetic to support this sociopath.

  20. #95

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    Looks like Jr. made that comment 2016.

    He best catch a clue/ update for 2018:

    Men who do this now will certainly be put on FRONT STREET publicly about it!

    Last edited by Zacha341; December-08-17 at 01:53 PM.

  21. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by drjeff View Post
    There is a mountain of various forms of evidence and Moore hasn't denied going after teenage girls as a man in his thirties. He was banned from a mall for pete's sake. Stop reading your right wing propaganda and use your damn brain. It's frankly pathetic to support this sociopath.
    Your certainty is not sufficient for me to destroy a man's reputation. There are courts for these issues. Let them settle it. As far as election, there are voters to decide these issues. Let them settle it.

    The only truth here is that we don't know the truth about Franken nor Moore.

  22. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WC View Post
    This just in. Moore accuser Beverly Young Nelson (client of Gloria Allred) admitted just now that she forged part of a year book inscription attributed to Moore. The yearbook inscription bolstered her claim she knew Moore years ago. Fox News.

    Moore ruled against Nelson in her 1999 divorce. Motive for lying?? After Nelson made her accusation women started coming out of the woodwork with similar claims. Their memories must have been jogged I guess.
    If one is looking to avoid fake news, it might be best to avoid Fox News. https://www.salon.com/2017/12/08/fox...er-of-forgery/

  23. #98

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    Dr. Jeff: There's "a mountain of various forms of evidence?" Oh yeah. Why not chip off some from that mountain and share with us. Banned from a mall? I doubt it. Come up with a source NOT MSNBC.

    Moore has denied all of the allegations. Who know? You don't, that's for sure.

    Read Wesley Mouch's 2:46 p.m. post, and learn.

    Swingline: A distinction without a difference. The claimant alleged Moore wrote the inscription and then admits she wrote part of it. Stop grasping at straws.

    Alabama's going to have a new senator and his name is Moore. Live with it. Even if the things he is alleged to have done are true he didn't go nearly as far as Bill Clinton (who I thought was a damn good president despite his moral lapses.)

  24. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WC View Post
    Dr. Jeff: There's "a mountain of various forms of evidence?" Oh yeah. Why not chip off some from that mountain and share with us. Banned from a mall? I doubt it. Come up with a source NOT MSNBC.

    Moore has denied all of the allegations. Who know? You don't, that's for sure.

    Read Wesley Mouch's 2:46 p.m. post, and learn.

    Swingline: A distinction without a difference. The claimant alleged Moore wrote the inscription and then admits she wrote part of it. Stop grasping at straws.

    Alabama's going to have a new senator and his name is Moore. Live with it. Even if the things he is alleged to have done are true he didn't go nearly as far as Bill Clinton (who I thought was a damn good president despite his moral lapses.)
    So you're saying the claims against Moore are just bare allegations of the she said/he said variety? You place no weight on the fact that the original Washington Post article included corroborative evidence from 30 additional sources of evidence? Additional victims (Alabaman Republicans no less) coming forth with corroborated stories has no effect on your ability to assess the truth of the allegations? The banned-from-the-mall story is a highly sourced one from the New Yorker. The Roy Moore allegations are backed up by sound journalism. Yeah, they don't have film of Moore in action, but that isn't the proof standard for most Americans on this issue. Sadly, that probably is the standard for too many Alabama voters.

    As for the debunking of your Fox-based forgery story, no straw-grasping is going on. Moore's victim readily admits that she added the date and place to the yearbook entry. It's plainly obvious that the handwriting is different. There's no gotcha moment here. Actually if you wanted to talk about grasping straws, your Fox News story with its ridiculous headline provided you with a perfect example.

  25. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by swingline View Post
    So you're saying the claims against Moore are just bare allegations of the she said/he said variety? You place no weight on the fact that the original Washington Post article included corroborative evidence from 30 additional sources of evidence? Additional victims (Alabaman Republicans no less) coming forth with corroborated stories has no effect on your ability to assess the truth of the allegations? The banned-from-the-mall story is a highly sourced one from the New Yorker. The Roy Moore allegations are backed up by sound journalism. Yeah, they don't have film of Moore in action, but that isn't the proof standard for most Americans on this issue. Sadly, that probably is the standard for too many Alabama voters.

    As for the debunking of your Fox-based forgery story, no straw-grasping is going on. Moore's victim readily admits that she added the date and place to the yearbook entry. It's plainly obvious that the handwriting is different. There's no gotcha moment here. Actually if you wanted to talk about grasping straws, your Fox News story with its ridiculous headline provided you with a perfect example.
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...e-gadsden-mall

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