Gerrymandering ballot drive under attack

[brizee]

"Republicans who have dominated recent state and federal elections are mobilizing in opposition as a grassroots group nears its signature goal for a 2018 ballot proposal to create an independent commission that would redraw political maps.

“As I’ve often told people, it’s a lot cheaper to keep a proposal off the ballot than it is to try to defeat it in a multimillion-dollar campaign,” said attorney Bob LaBrant, who helped form an opposition committee that could raise money for a potential court challenge."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...oup/107392690/

Hatchet man Nolan Finley has also come out with a hit piece[[which I won't be giving clicks).

[Scottathew]

I don't know how anyone can support the Republican party anymore.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I don't know how anyone can support the Republican party anymore.

Unfortunately I do, but I will refrain from stating it. What I really don't understand is how gerrymandering can be legal or supported by anyone other than self-serving politicians. I think it really harms our system of governing and leads to ever increasing alienation of voters. But then again, I think the whole two party system needs to be overhauled in favor of some type of proportional representation.

[aj3647]

https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/o...nt?oid=2472685

In 2014 and 2016, Democrats received more votes or nearly split the tally in the State House races, yet Republicans hold a huge 63-47 majority and push a deeply conservative agenda that a majority of voters don't want.
How could that be? That's classic gerrymandering. As MT reported a year ago, Republicans redrew the state's 110 state legislative districts in 2010 in such a way that Democratic voters are herded into a small number of districts. The majority of Republican voters, conversely, are spread among a much larger number of districts.

Whoever controls more districts controls the House. So "packing and stacking" Democrats into a small number districts makes it easy for Republicans to hold onto power, even if Democrats get more votes statewide.

Democratic candidates win more popular votes, but Republicans win more seats in the legislature based on how the lines are drawn. Sounds like a democracy to me.

[1953]

It's actually a Democratic Republic, but who's counting?

[GPCharles]

Do some research on the preservation of minority majority districts. That is a big part of the reason our districts look so odd.

[UrbanViews]

Our founding principles are of a representative republic and not of democracy. It was founded this way to give a voice to every class and not just the upper class [[the governing/business.)

[aj3647]

It's actually a Democratic Republic, but who's counting?

Yeah that first word bears some importance. If Democrats get >50% of the vote but only end up with ~40% of the seats in the legislature because Republicans drew the lines to ensure that outcome, then that's not a Democratic Republic. It's just a Republic.

[BankruptcyGuy]

For those who think that an "independent commission" reduces gerrymandering, please look at this picture, and realize these are the districts drawn by said commission.

Also, keep in mind that districts, especially urban ones, are tightly packed with voters [[generally) for only one party. To "smooth out" the results, you'd have to divide those up. And to do that, it will take odd looking districts. The efficiency ratio mentioned in the Wisconsin case is a completely made up statistical concept, and presumes an even distribution of voters across the populace. That is sadly becoming more and more untrue.

[webband1]

I think we need to take the power to draw district lines out of the hands of the legislature, but I know that a commission is still going to have fairly odd looking districts. They won't be square boxes.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

For those who think that an "independent commission" reduces gerrymandering, please look at this picture, and realize these are the districts drawn by said commission.

Also, keep in mind that districts, especially urban ones, are tightly packed with voters [[generally) for only one party. To "smooth out" the results, you'd have to divide those up. And to do that, it will take odd looking districts. The efficiency ratio mentioned in the Wisconsin case is a completely made up statistical concept, and presumes an even distribution of voters across the populace. That is sadly becoming more and more untrue.

Independent commissions can totally reduce gerrymandering because they expressly have the goal of not intentionally favoring one party or the other. Districts might still have odd shapes for any number of reasons that are not partisan. To a large extent these California congressional districts follow existing boundaries. I live in the increasingly Democratic [[thankfully!) district 36. Its a quite simple district comprised of most of Riverside county.

Map-drawing process[edit]

The Voters First Act and Voters First Act for Congress amended Article XXI section 2[[d) of the California Constitution to establish a set of rank-ordered criteria that the Commission followed to create new districts:

1. Population Equality: Districts must comply with the U.S. Constitution’s requirement of “one person, one vote”
2. Federal Voting Rights Act: Districts must ensure an equal opportunity for minorities to elect a candidate of their choice
3. Geographic Contiguity: All areas within a district must be connected to each other, except for the special case of islands
4. Geographic Integrity: Districts shall minimize the division of cities, counties, local neighborhoods and communities of interests to the extent possible, without violating previous criteria. A community of interest is a contiguous population which shares common social and economic interests that should be included within a single district for purposes of its effective and fair representation.
5. Geographic Compactness: To the extent practicable, and where this does not conflict with previous criteria, districts must not bypass nearby communities for more distant communities
6. Nesting: To the extent practicable, and where this does not conflict with previous criteria, each Senate district will be composed of two whole Assemblydistricts, Board of Equalization districts will be composed of 10 Senate districts.

In addition, incumbents, political candidates or political parties cannot be considered when drawing districts. Article XXI section 2[[b) of the California Constitutionalso requires that the Commission “conduct an open and transparent process enabling full public consideration of and comment on the drawing of district lines.” As documented in its final report, the Commission engaged in an extensive public input process that included 34 hearings across the state where 2700 citizens and a diverse range of organized groups gave public testimony, including organizations such as the League of Women Voters, California Forward, Common Cause, the California Chamber of Commerce [[CalChamber), Equality California, Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund [[MALDEF), the Asian Pacific American Legal Center, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People [[NAACP), the Silicon Valley Leadership Group, and the Sierra Club. Over 20,000 written public comments were submitted through the wedrawthelines.ca.gov website, via email or fax.^[27]
Since the process was open, partisans were among those who attempted to influence the Commission during the public hearing process to ensure the resulting districts were drawn in their favor. In a much-cited article, the investigative journalism publisher ProPublica found evidence that the California Democratic Partyleaders coordinated with community groups to testify in front of the Commission, and concluded that these efforts had manipulated the process.^{[28][29][30][31][32][33][34]} While the California Republican Party was quick to call for an investigation, other political observers were less surprised and noted that similar Republican efforts during the hearing process were simply less effective.^{[35][36][37][38]} In a response to the story, the Commission stated that it “had its eyes wide open” and “were not unduly influenced by that.”^[39][40]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califo...ing_Commission

[Hermod]

Problems with redistricting:
1. Democrats tend to be concentrated in urban areas/college towns.
2. "Packing" Democratic districts leads to more minority representatives at the cost of fewer Democrat representatives overall.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Packin and crackin folks, it's the name of the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-4dIImaodQ&t=3s

[mikehamm45]

A few weeks ago the family and I happened to be in Grand Rapids during Artprise. There were people who were asking for signatures for this. Grand Rapids seemed to be quite conservative, and many of the people telling the lady that they would not support a move against this had very interesting reasons. Many didn't quite understand it, but this one guy pretty much told her that I would not support this because the system currently favors Republicans and he is a Republican so it would be against his interest if anti-gerrymandering took place.

Hearing this I told him that both sides do it and pretty soon it could lean to favor democrats and what would serve everyone better was if the people chose their leaders, not the other way around. He still didn't care to sign.

The notion of "us vs them" in American politics is gaining ground. For many its a sport in which people are under the impression that for them to win the other has to loose. Compromise is gone. The zealots of both parties will continue to gain ground and we will all loose.

[Jimaz]

Turn the map-drawing task over to an open-source, unbiased, randomized computer program?

[Hermod]

Turn the map-drawing task over to an open-source, unbiased, randomized computer program?

What will the program optimize?
Compactness and regularity in shape of districts?
Minority representation?
Following boundaries of political subdivisions as closely as possible?
Assuring that representation follows the popular vote as closely as possible [[that will lead to some oddly shaped districts)?

[mikehamm45]

Thinking that you would always have issues because "liberals" by nature tend to flock to large cities and "conservatives" by nature prefer otherwise.

[Sandhouse]

I'd love to see an end to gerrymandered districts which favor extreme candidates of both parties, but the current Michigan petition has two defects that I consider fatal:

1. The language establishing the citizens' commission and the map-drawing process is full of vague, undefined terms that will provide endless excuses for legal challenges. It will never work.

2. The amendment enshrines a position for the Republican and Democratic Parties in the state constitution, and parties should not be there. Besides, the way things are going, either or both parties could be history in 10 years. Then what?

[Meddle]

What will the program optimize?
Compactness and regularity in shape of districts?
Minority representation?
Following boundaries of political subdivisions as closely as possible?
Assuring that representation follows the popular vote as closely as possible [[that will lead to some oddly shaped districts)?

Raw numbers of population only.
To a degree -- focusing on as few 'sides' as possible and overall continuity.
None of the rest should be considered at all.

[EastsideAl]

Because the Republicans don't really believe in democracy. Or at least don't believe in it for certain groups of citizens. As their ongoing nation-wide initiative to disenfrachise or suppress non-white voters and their continued outrageous, and provably false, claims [[lies, that is) about non-white voter "fraud" clearly show.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Leaving aside all the silly and conspiracy theories posted in this thread, I will leave just 2 thoughts.

1) All political perspectives attempt to establish a system that produces favorable outcomes for their side and agenda. That is true through history, up 'til and including the present. The right does it, the left does it. And both sides continue to do so.

2) Any "independent commission" would be no less partisan and driven by faction and self-interest than having redistricting done by legislatures and courts. The idea of a Perpetually Righteous and Selfless Do-Gooders Committee organized to establish political boundaries is absurdist fiction. The lawyers, business and union lobbies, special interest groups, etc would all attempt to and succeed in getting themselves onto said commission. Who, may I ask, would have the knowledge and wisdom to make such decisions, but has not come to any political opinions of their own? NO ONE. That's who. All a commission would accomplish would be removing itself further from the people by one degree.

The first thing that should be done to render "blind" districts is to stop collecting all demographic and political data. Our representatives should represent people, not types of people.

[Scottathew]

But then again, I think the whole two party system needs to be overhauled in favor of some type of proportional representation.

I'd be interested in that.

I'm also interested in a voting system that allows you to pick and rank multiple people so you can vote for the third party candidate you want, but still prevent the mainstream candidate that you hate.

Here's a video about it that explains it, and then goes on to say that YOUR solution is better...maybe...

[TKshreve]

Leaving aside all the silly and conspiracy theories posted in this thread, I will leave just 2 thoughts.

1) All political perspectives attempt to establish a system that produces favorable outcomes for their side and agenda. That is true through history, up 'til and including the present. The right does it, the left does it. And both sides continue to do so.

2) Any "independent commission" would be no less partisan and driven by faction and self-interest than having redistricting done by legislatures and courts. The idea of a Perpetually Righteous and Selfless Do-Gooders Committee organized to establish political boundaries is absurdist fiction. The lawyers, business and union lobbies, special interest groups, etc would all attempt to and succeed in getting themselves onto said commission. Who, may I ask, would have the knowledge and wisdom to make such decisions, but has not come to any political opinions of their own? NO ONE. That's who. All a commission would accomplish would be removing itself further from the people by one degree.

The first thing that should be done to render "blind" districts is to stop collecting all demographic and political data. Our representatives should represent people, not types of people.

So, do away with the census? Everything else you said was very dismissive to the issue at hand.

Perhaps a median state income level could effectively drive the district lines. While they may still look like a kindergarten art project, each district would contain [[X) amount of households which equate to the median state income level, thus representing each end of the spectrum.

Oh wait, because wealth is heavily concentrated at the top, the top 1% would lose their voting power you say? Smells like democracy to me.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

So, do away with the census? Everything else you said was very dismissive to the issue at hand.

No, keep the census. Required by the US Constitution, among other reasons. But the Census should just count the people, not seek to learn your race, sex, age, political leanings, sexual orientation, religion, income, dinner plans, or anything else. Then, using the population statistics, the legislators or whoever is making boundaries should then just seek to create districs that, as far as possible, take into account municipal & county lines, and thereafter keep districts as regularly shaped as possible, so that we don't have "snake" districts wrapping all over everywhere trying to fit in the correct type of people to achieve someone's desired election outcome.

[Dan Wesson]

interesting factoid...

Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts. His last name is spoken like Gary.

Therefore it was originally Garymandering. As compared to Jerrymandering.

https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2017/02/el...s-gerrymander/