What's with the new lanes on Jefferson?

**ScienceFair** · October-20-17, 12:34 PM

A couple weeks back I noticed a new lane format was painted on Jefferson between 375 and Chalmers. There are two lanes each way with what appears to be a right turn lane and a bike line on the edges. I'm cool with this, but no one seems to know what the third lane is for. Is it a right-turn lane? Is it a bus lane?

There is no signage, just new lane paint. Kind of reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer adopts a highway and changes it from a four-lane highway to a two-lane comfort cruise.

**ndavies** · October-20-17, 12:45 PM

The third lane is for parking. It protects the bike lanes from the moving cars. Hence the name, protected bike lanes.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...nes/104800292/

From the article:

Brundidge said moving parked vehicles away from the curb creates the space needed for protected bike lanes.
“The parked vehicles then become the separator between bikes and vehicles, creating a safer path for bicyclists,” he said. “Bike lanes that have been installed on segments of Livernois and East Jefferson follow this same format of parked vehicles being moved from the curb to create protected bike lanes.”

**southen** · October-20-17, 01:29 PM

Nobody knows what to do because they haven't finished implementing the parking and protected lanes. I imagine more paint and signage is on the way. For the time being though I am stunned with how many people think that the third lane with a solid line is some super secret passing lane that only they know about.

**ndavies** · October-20-17, 02:16 PM

No one knows what to do with the protected land, Even with the extra paint. I drove up Livernois over the summer, the paint was complete. People were still parking in the bike lane. People are going to need to be told. [[or ticketed until they stop.)

**southen** · October-20-17, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

No one knows what to do with the protected land, Even with the extra paint. I drove up Livernois over the summer, the paint was complete. People were still parking in the bike lane. People are going to need to be told. [[or ticketed until they stop.)

Does the lane on Livernois have the protective bollards in addition to the paint? I have seen some people still park between those, but I feel that requires a special level of stupid.

**MicrosoftFan** · October-20-17, 03:35 PM

Are there any plans to extend the median and streetscaping from Chalmers to 375? Or just the lane pattern?

**casscorridor** · October-20-17, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

No one knows what to do with the protected land, Even with the extra paint. I drove up Livernois over the summer, the paint was complete. People were still parking in the bike lane. People are going to need to be told. [[or ticketed until they stop.)

No, there needs to be concrete that physically prevents cars from driving in the bike lane. At the very least, some sort of barrier. Paint is not enough. Google search "protected bike lanes" for some examples.

**Jason** · October-20-17, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by MicrosoftFan

Are there any plans to extend the median and streetscaping from Chalmers to 375? Or just the lane pattern?

The intention is to do the streetscaping all the way, but I think they're dependent on whatever money comes around. This is the group that was pushing for the streetscaping: https://jeffersoneast.org/

And I might just be dumb, but in Jefferson Chalmers, how do you turn left to get to a business on the other side of the street? And it doesn't seem like there's actually that many pedestrian crossings? It seems like the only real difference is that there's bushes instead of a left turn lane, and a new bike lane. Mack Avenue in Grosse Pointe Woods has the street parking/michigan left combo which is really convenient for drivers. And the median, the way the traffic flows, and the frequent pedestrian crossings makes it really easy to walk around there.

**eastland** · October-20-17, 08:20 PM

Stupid move. In three years since they created the bike lanes on Jefferson between Alter and Chalmers, I have seen ZERO bikes but huge traffic congestion. There are six-foot wide sidewalks for bikes to use. Now we are going to have to put up with this nonsense all the way downtown.

**p69rrh51** · October-20-17, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by eastland

Stupid move. In three years since they created the bike lanes on Jefferson between Alter and Chalmers, I have seen ZERO bikes but huge traffic congestion. There are six-foot wide sidewalks for bikes to use. Now we are going to have to put up with this nonsense all the way downtown.

Not so much traffic congestion as traffic control. Since the bike lanes went in the speed of the traffic went from 50+ plus mph to 35-40 where it should be. I find that I spend 2 or 3 extra minutes going through the area compared to the previous configuration.

DetroitNightLights · October-21-17, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by eastland

Stupid move. In three years since they created the bike lanes on Jefferson between Alter and Chalmers, I have seen ZERO bikes but huge traffic congestion. There are six-foot wide sidewalks for bikes to use. Now we are going to have to put up with this nonsense all the way downtown.

I don't think bicycles are supposed to use sidewalks.

**Wesley Mouch** · October-21-17, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitNightLights

I don't think bicycles are supposed to use sidewalks.

Bicyclists have the moral highground these days. Detroit, fortunately, doesn't have a lot of bridges when compared, say, to Pittsburgh, Chicago, or Cleveland. Its normal these days to dedicate at least a full lane on bridges to bicycles.

Welcome to the future. We missed you.

**EastsideAl** · October-21-17, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by p69rrh51

Not so much traffic congestion as traffic control. Since the bike lanes went in the speed of the traffic went from 50+ plus mph to 35-40 where it should be. I find that I spend 2 or 3 extra minutes going through the area compared to the original configuration.

Yes, part of the point of narrowing streets is to slow traffic down. It's called "traffic calming" and it provably makes cyclists and pedestrians safer, and reduces the severity of accidents. It's being done in major cities all over the country, particularly in conjunction with the installation of more dedicated bike lanes.

**313rd** · October-23-17, 07:52 AM

Attachment 34440

This needs to be advertised. Even posted along the route. You will be surprised how many people will park in the bike lane.

**Zacha341** · October-23-17, 08:16 AM

They are a pain but I try to be fair to the cyclist even when I don't see them. Five months of potential snow, yet still the need for the Cycle Areas? I dunno. Maybe end it between December and February. But that's not cool I guess.

Anyway they are going to have to put up those polls [[bollards) as people are just driving in the bike lanes now. Great.

Originally Posted by eastland

Stupid move. In three years since they created the bike lanes on Jefferson between Alter and Chalmers, I have seen ZERO bikes but huge traffic congestion. There are six-foot wide sidewalks for bikes to use. Now we are going to have to put up with this nonsense all the way downtown.

**southen** · October-23-17, 10:23 AM

People cycle in the winter too.

**Zacha341** · October-23-17, 11:30 AM

^^^ Well yeah that's true -- though considerably less! Would not be me! Hah!

**One Shot** · October-23-17, 04:18 PM

These lanes add major confusion to motorists. The roads weren't designed to have them which makes it worse. Atwater is another example. I think they redid the lines/lanes about 3 times now. Its a good idea but put some more thought into it! People barely know how to follow basic traffic signals/markings let alone something new. How about just biking with traffic and obeying basic rules of the road?

**313WX** · October-23-17, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

And I might just be dumb, but in Jefferson Chalmers, how do you turn left to get to a business on the other side of the street?

And I might just be dumb, but in Jefferson Chalmers, how do you turn left to get to a business on the other side of the street? And it doesn't seem like there's actually that many pedestrian crossings? It seems like the only real difference is that there's bushes instead of a left turn lane, and a new bike lane. Mack Avenue in Grosse Pointe Woods has the street parking/michigan left combo which is really convenient for drivers. And the median, the way the traffic flows, and the frequent pedestrian crossings makes it really easy to walk around there.

In Georgia, where this type of street configuration is common, it's perfectly legal to just do a U-Turn around the median wherever there's an opening.

**southen** · October-23-17, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by One Shot

These lanes add major confusion to motorists. The roads weren't designed to have them which makes it worse. Atwater is another example. I think they redid the lines/lanes about 3 times now. Its a good idea but put some more thought into it! People barely know how to follow basic traffic signals/markings let alone something new. How about just biking with traffic and obeying basic rules of the road?

Because as you just said people barely know how to follow basic signals and markings. Why would you want to add bikes to that? I'm guessing you haven't biked the city before. The lanes, even though they may be misunderstood, protect cyclists.

**p69rrh51** · October-23-17, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by southen

Because as you just said people barely know how to follow basic signals and markings. Why would you want to add bikes to that? I'm guessing you haven't biked the city before. The lanes, even though they may be misunderstood, protect cyclists.

The motorists in the metro area can barely deal with other automobiles let alone sharing the road with bicyclists. While I am a fanatic of the automobile, all automobiles have to share the road and drivers need to learn the rules of the road. I think there should be bicycle lanes from the foot of Woodward along E. Jefferson/Lakeshore/Jefferson all the way to S. River Road. While the terrain is not that challenging it would make an excellent sprint.

**mtburb** · October-23-17, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by p69rrh51

The motorists in the metro area can barely deal with other automobiles let alone sharing the road with bicyclists. While I am a fanatic of the automobile, all automobiles have to share the road and drivers need to learn the rules of the road. I think there should be bicycle lanes from the foot of Woodward along E. Jefferson/Lakeshore/Jefferson all the way to S. River Road. While the terrain is not that challenging it would make an excellent sprint.

Now while at it, if feasible, the remaining radials should have bicycle lanes too...

West Jefferson/Biddle/West Jefferson/Elizabeth Drive to Elizabeth Park.
West/South Fort Street to Dumfries Street.
Michigan Avenue to Greenfield.
Grand River to Berg Road/Marene Street.
Woodward from Custer Street to McNichols.
Gratiot to 8 Mile.

This is, for all but the first one, only up to where they widen into higher-speed boulevards. Now, I know that good portions of each of these may be too sparse to support bicycle lanes right now, but these are only feasible suggestions.

**Meddle** · October-24-17, 04:53 AM

Bikes make good hood ornaments.

**Honky Tonk** · October-24-17, 08:52 AM

This is the best idea for tax use since the Kilpatrick administration put plastic skirts on streetlights.

**gvidas** · October-25-17, 01:06 PM

The real test is going to be how snow removal handles the bike and parking lanes. Generally our plows kind of fuck up both the pedestrian and bicycle experiences.

Michigan drivers have always seen bike lanes as an extra space for cars -- trumbul near motor city casino is a pretty constantly obvious example. Forcing them out of the way with poles and parked cars is a nice step.