Welcome to Bernie/Independent/Third Party Land

[Zacha341]

How can some?

Because the reasoning not to has been solely conflated to mean-siding-with DumpTrump and his pile [[so the thinking goes)!

We should have priorities no matter who's president!

Fake compassion burns me the most, how can one step on thier fellow Americans in order to help somebody else first, they use the whole it’s who we are as Americans, but it is not who we are.

[coracle]

Bernie Sanders omitted ' the rest of the story ' when he identified Denmark as a country that ha s successful free health care, free education , etc.

--
Don

[rb336]

You say it is fake compassion? I call bullshit. Support that claim.

Fake compassion burns me the most,how can one step on thier fellow Americans in order to help somebody else first,they use the whole it’s who we are as Americans,but it is not who we are.

[Richard]

You say it is fake compassion? I call bullshit. Support that claim.

I do not need to support it,open your eyes and look around,if politicians practiced what they preached there would be no inner cities or cities with 60,000 homeless while choosing to spend billions on illegals.

What part of that confuses you?

[Zacha341]

^^^ What inner cities?

Please supply the requested 155+ links [[which'll be dismissed) to support your claims NOW!! *sarc*

I'll wait...

[bust]

As if regional politics/opinions/planning/realities have no effect on local neighborhoods.

Homeless people migrate to places like San Francisco, not Bumfuk Alabama, because there is a lot more support and a much lower chance they'll be murdered in their sleep.

How encouraging the demand for sources. How discouraging the admission they'll immediately be dismissed.

[Pam]

Bernie will be traveling to Windsor from Detroit today.

In 1999 I traveled to Canada with breast cancer patients and watched as they, with tears in their eyes, finally received the medicine they could not afford in the United States.

This Sunday we're going back with diabetics to purchase insulin at one-tenth the price.

https://youtu.be/f6K_ub7sQ2o

[Pam]

Bernie Does Impromptu Medicare For All Town Hall In The Street

https://youtu.be/pm9B0MHqRzQ

[Honky Tonk]

Bernie will be traveling to Windsor from Detroit today.


https://youtu.be/f6K_ub7sQ2o

No offense, Pam, I mean you no harm, but Bernie can advocate for anything he wants, including all US citizens getting a fresh, crisp hundred dollar bill every morning, but it ain't gonna happen. Have more stringent background checks been implemented for weapons purchase? The AMA is another member of the holy trinity in this country, and they're not going to give up their piece of the pie. Even if Bernie should make it into office, [[anything is possible after Trump) he simply can't wave his arm and declare "Medicare for all". There are checks and balances that have to be passed by legislature first. Somehow it has to be paid for. I don't see it happening. More idealistic fluff.

[Jimaz]

Sen. Bernie Sanders - "Despair is not an option"

One question asked of Senator Sanders [was] how he was able to bounce back in the wake of Trump’s unexpected win.

“It is appropriate when you lose to take a day off,” Sanders said to laughter. “But in all seriousness, when you deal with bigotry and the incredible hurt that it does to people. And when you deal with climate change and understand if we don’t act aggressively that the planet that we leave those kids will be a much less happy planet, you don’t have the option of living in remorse or sadness.”

Mayor of Burlington, Vermont?	They said it couldn't be done.
U.S. House of Representatives?	They said it couldn't be done.
U.S. Senate?	They said it couldn't be done.
U.S. President?	They said it couldn't be done.

Electoral history of Bernie Sanders

[Pam]

No offense, Pam, I mean you no harm, but Bernie can advocate for anything he wants, including all US citizens getting a fresh, crisp hundred dollar bill every morning, but it ain't gonna happen. Have more stringent background checks been implemented for weapons purchase? The AMA is another member of the holy trinity in this country, and they're not going to give up their piece of the pie. Even if Bernie should make it into office, [[anything is possible after Trump) he simply can't wave his arm and declare "Medicare for all". There are checks and balances that have to be passed by legislature first. Somehow it has to be paid for. I don't see it happening. More idealistic fluff.

If every other country in the world can do it, why can't we? Obviously he can't just wave his arm. There would be a transition period of a few years where more people are added to Medicare. The current system is broken. We have to try. Or you could just vote for Status Quo Joe Biden who has a pharma lobbyist working for him.

https://youtu.be/41bB2iSqAc8

[Honky Tonk]

If every other country in the world can do it, why can't we? Obviously he can't just wave his arm. There would be a transition period of a few years where more people are added to Medicare. The current system is broken. We have to try. Or you could just vote for Status Quo Joe Biden who has a pharma lobbyist working for him.

https://youtu.be/41bB2iSqAc8

I'm voting for Elizabeth Warren because I want to pay off everybody else's tuition too. I got into it last night with 2 staunch Democrats about Joe Biden. It'll take more then a few years Pam, because "they're" not going to let it happen. Obama was the most popular President since Clinton, and look how cooperative everyone was passing the Hack-Job Health Care. And Bernie wants to introduce Socialism? Best of luck on his election.

[Richard]

If every other country in the world can do it, why can't we? Obviously he can't just wave his arm. There would be a transition period of a few years where more people are added to Medicare. The current system is broken. We have to try. Or you could just vote for Status Quo Joe Biden who has a pharma lobbyist working for him.

https://youtu.be/41bB2iSqAc8

If one really looks at systems in place in every other country in the world they will see that they are also constantly trying to figure out how to fund an overwhelmed system.

In the UK a simple flu outbreak pushed the system beyond capacity.

People use the argument that there is no healthcare for the poor while every state has programs in place that provide medical assistance for the poor which is a combination of state and federal funds,some states you do not even have to be a citizen to receive healthcare at no cost to the individual.

I would agree that the big Pharmaceutical aspect needs to come into check but when tried in Russia it opened the door in the wrong way,the market became flooded with watered down insulin and people died from it.But it was cheap.

Everything is a trade off,you either have healthcare for all at a reduced performance rate with the high taxes paying for it or a system that we already have,something that is already accessible to everybody without the never ending bottomless pit of funding it.

So that is the problem in trying to convince a nation that healthcare for all is the solution when it is actually not a proven solution anywhere in the world as a viable comparison.

The bankers love socialism programs,all the money flows to the top and makes it easier to collect the interest,every government runs off of borrowing money,somebody is providing it and somebody is collecting interest on it,but yet let’s run on the platform of anti big banks while trying to do a systematic change that actually puts the reins in thier hands of control.

Big money cannot buy a better political allegiances then those who are keen on socialism.

Here in Florida it seems like a majority of the doctors are of Indian decent that migrated to Canada,became doctors under thier programs,then moved to the states to continue thier practice,which seems to be a common theme worldwide.

[Canadian Visitor]

If one really looks at systems in place in every other country in the world they will see that they are also constantly trying to figure out how to fund an overwhelmed system.

In the UK a simple flu outbreak pushed the system beyond capacity.

People use the argument that there is no healthcare for the poor while every state has programs in place that provide medical assistance for the poor which is a combination of state and federal funds,some states you do not even have to be a citizen to receive healthcare at no cost to the individual.

I would agree that the big Pharmaceutical aspect needs to come into check but when tried in Russia it opened the door in the wrong way,the market became flooded with watered down insulin and people died from it.But it was cheap.

Everything is a trade off,you either have healthcare for all at a reduced performance rate with the high taxes paying for it or a system that we already have,something that is already accessible to everybody without the never ending bottomless pit of funding it.

So that is the problem in trying to convince a nation that healthcare for all is the solution when it is actually not a proven solution anywhere in the world as a viable comparison.

The bankers love socialism programs,all the money flows to the top and makes it easier to collect the interest,every government runs off of borrowing money,somebody is providing it and somebody is collecting interest on it,but yet let’s run on the platform of anti big banks while trying to do a systematic change that actually puts the reins in thier hands of control.

Big money cannot buy a better political allegiances then those who are keen on socialism.

Here in Florida it seems like a majority of the doctors are of Indian decent that migrated to Canada,became doctors under thier programs,then moved to the states to continue thier practice,which seems to be a common theme worldwide.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, on any subject, ever.

****

Without getting into the endless weeds, the US 'system' doesn't produce the best outcomes in the aggregate.

That's the quality you'd say your after.

Cancer survival after 5 years; surviorship rate post heart attack; total life expectancy, total infant mortality.

US results are great in some spots, terrible in others, and average in most.

Combine that with those who don't have any coverage and therefore receive too little care, too late, and US results, overall, are among the worst in the developed world.

https://interactives.commonwealthfun...mirror-mirror/

****

Now lets separate that out from the socialist BS shall we.

In Canada, doctors are independent contractors, even in hospitals they are not employees unless they are management.

What government monopolizes is not care, its insurance.

Variations of this are true in much of the developed world.

Much of the insurance is private, though there is usually a public option in there somewhere.

What is distinct is measures to ensure everyone is covered, and that costs are controlled.

The latter is a function of controls on patents, as well as drugmakers having to negotiate with a public insurer to be added to a formulary.

The result is lower pricing.

Certain costs are lower because everyone has access to a family doctor; and because diagnosis occurs sooner, often requiring less expensive intervention.

There are also economies of scale; large parts of these various systems are non-profit. Drug companies are generally not allowed to advertise which reduces costs as well as unnecessary prescriptions.

***

None of the above makes any of these other systems perfect.

Merely better than what the U.S. has in place.

Ontario is always striving, as I'm sure Australian, European and Japanese hospitals and healthcare systems are, to achieve shorter waits, better access to experimental/leading edge therapies etc.

There will always be room for improvement.

***

Finally, the US has any number of choices to make reforms.

Medicare for all is ambitious, and do-able; but without question, a serious political challenge.

A more likely route to success is to shift children and youth under 25 onto medicare; removing CHIRP for this group and limiting medicaid to cover the funding gap/copay for low income families only.

This is comparatively cheap [[children and relatively healthy on the whole and use fewer drugs and have fewer surgeries); and the pay off of reaching 26 in good health and with a family doctor, can benefit the person and they system for a lifetime.

The cost of high-risk pregnancy can be shifted into this scheme, and off of adult insurance, where it is a significant cost driver.

Do that, control drug costs by imposing restrictions on patent pricing, allowing medicare/medicaid to negotiate drug prices and by banning drug commercials and drug company junkets for doctors.

If that's all you do, you should be able to get the US to 95% coverage both through the youth medicare plan but also through reduced adult premiums.

Getting the last 5% is more expensive and harder if you don't do 'medicare for all', but there are logical phase-in chunks, like lowering medicare's coverage age to 60 across the board, and allowing buy-in at 55.

So it doesn't have to be all or nothing; do that and grow medicaid in 2 ways, one top-up who it covers in the first place to up to 200% of the poverty line.

Two, allow it to be used to cover co-pays/deductibles for those with private insurance, where the latter exceeds 1% of annual income.

All that is rather less efficient than other world models, but its also more attainable politically.

[Richard]

^ try that in your country first and let us know how it works out.

Canada has a different set of obstacles for the sufferer of neck or back occlusion; the wait time there is determined not only by the availability of a facility but by the somewhat random governmental determinations of the relative needs of patients. An elderly woman with chronic back pain, for example, might be considered a less worthy candidate [[as repugnant as that thought is to most) than a younger [[and currently employed) individual with a similar complaint.

https://www.fixmypain.ca/wait-times-...united-states/

Whos job is it in Canada to sit there and figure out who lives,dies,or suffers according to age and worth to the community?

They add the repugnant remark,like the practice is a perfectly normal process.The poor starve in schools your free,but not really because everybody pays just shy of $6000 a year to cover it,healthcare is based on who is worthy or not to live.

So you basically starve or allow those to suffer and die those who do not meet the community standards.

Whats next,once you hit 40 you start a down curve of a productive member of society,so it is time to go?

And this is a perfectly normal and excepted way of life.

At $6000 per year,per person,what exactly are you doing outside of the same exact thing that we are doing in the United States.

All you really did was remove the funds from private insurance companies and diverted to the government and called it free healthcare,and forcing the ones who want private insurance to pay a double taxation of sorts.

[Honky Tonk]

If one really looks at systems in place in every other country in the world they will see that they are also constantly trying to figure out how to fund an overwhelmed system.

In the UK a simple flu outbreak pushed the system beyond capacity.

People use the argument that there is no healthcare for the poor while every state has programs in place that provide medical assistance for the poor which is a combination of state and federal funds,some states you do not even have to be a citizen to receive healthcare at no cost to the individual.

I would agree that the big Pharmaceutical aspect needs to come into check but when tried in Russia it opened the door in the wrong way,the market became flooded with watered down insulin and people died from it.But it was cheap.

Everything is a trade off,you either have healthcare for all at a reduced performance rate with the high taxes paying for it or a system that we already have,something that is already accessible to everybody without the never ending bottomless pit of funding it.

So that is the problem in trying to convince a nation that healthcare for all is the solution when it is actually not a proven solution anywhere in the world as a viable comparison.

The bankers love socialism programs,all the money flows to the top and makes it easier to collect the interest,every government runs off of borrowing money,somebody is providing it and somebody is collecting interest on it,but yet let’s run on the platform of anti big banks while trying to do a systematic change that actually puts the reins in thier hands of control.

Big money cannot buy a better political allegiances then those who are keen on socialism.

Here in Florida it seems like a majority of the doctors are of Indian decent that migrated to Canada,became doctors under thier programs,then moved to the states to continue thier practice,which seems to be a common theme worldwide.

I'm currently against any form of "free healthcare for all" until the flow of illegal aliens is stemmed, and some kind of I.D. system is implemented and required. As bad as things are now, can you imagine what it would cost the taxpayers if it were "free"? Let's get some border control first, before we open the floodgates. That is, of course, unless they just want a pass-through to Canada to take advantage of their free healthcare system. I'm all for a military escort, even secured transportation to their border.

[Canadian Visitor]

I'm currently against any form of "free healthcare for all" until the flow of illegal aliens is stemmed, and some kind of I.D. system is implemented and required. As bad as things are now, can you imagine what it would cost the taxpayers if it were "free"? Let's get some border control first, before we open the floodgates. That is, of course, unless they just want a pass-through to Canada to take advantage of their free healthcare system. I'm all for a military escort, even secured transportation to their border.

You know you have to have a Health Card, government issued photo ID to get healthcare services in Canada, right?

We don't hand those out to just anyone.....LOL

[Canadian Visitor]

Canada has a different set of obstacles for the sufferer of neck or back occlusion; the wait time there is determined not only by the availability of a facility but by the somewhat random governmental determinations of the relative needs of patients. An elderly woman with chronic back pain, for example, might be considered a less worthy candidate [[as repugnant as that thought is to most) than a younger [[and currently employed) individual with a similar complaint.

https://www.fixmypain.ca/wait-times-...united-states/

This is simply a lie, completely, totally and entirely false.

This why I genuinely despise you. You never let your ignorance stop you from opening your mouth and confirming yourself as a complete fool.

There is no one in government who decides whether or when you get a surgery. Not ever. Not even once.

The process, is like the US one, your family doctor refers you to a specialist.

That specialist has a wait list of varying length depending on how in demand they are, the amount of Operating Room time they have, and the type of procedure you require.

Patients have have 4 levels of urgency. None of these are decided by a bureaucrat. None are based on your sex or age.

They are based on likihood of death, permanent damage, and/or profound pain.

Essentially, priority one is needs intervention now.

Priority four, is the condition can be managed safely for a period of time.

Everyone is level 4 unless their doctor says otherwise.

Your doctor decides how urgent you are, in consultation w/specialists as appropriate.

It means the wait for cancer surgery rarely exceeds 2 weeks; but the wait for a knee replacement could vary from 2 months to more than six.

But in the latter case, no one would be left debilitated. If they were that bad, they'd be bumped up the list.

In the interim, they'd be given physio, and medication.

Whos job is it in Canada to sit there and figure out who lives,dies,or suffers according to age and worth to the community?

As noted above, no one has that job. You made that up, as you do most things you post.

They add the repugnant remark,like the practice is a perfectly normal process.The poor starve in schools your free,but not really because everybody pays just shy of $6000 a year to cover it,healthcare is based on who is worthy or not to live.

Once again, completely made up up lies. Doesn't matter to you that Canada's child poverty rate is much lower than the US rate, or that more go on to graduate HS or Uni.

No child starves to death here unless its the rarest case of well hidden child abuse.

[Richard]

But we do at the cost of $18.5 billion per year.

So you can kinda see why we will never have socialized medical for all,it’s a good sounding political narrative but actual Americans go to the back of the line.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot.../#92867a812c47

[Pam]

Here's a clip of Bernie and the folks who went to Windsor to buy insulin.

https://youtu.be/RFWbnBssPMg

Thanks Canadian Visitor for your posts.

[Richard]

This is simply a lie, completely, totally and entirely false.

This why I genuinely despise you. You never let your ignorance stop you from opening your mouth and confirming yourself as a complete fool.

There is no one in government who decides whether or when you get a surgery. Not ever. Not even once.

The process, is like the US one, your family doctor refers you to a specialist.

That specialist has a wait list of varying length depending on how in demand they are, the amount of Operating Room time they have, and the type of procedure you require.

Patients have have 4 levels of urgency. None of these are decided by a bureaucrat. None are based on your sex or age.

They are based on likihood of death, permanent damage, and/or profound pain.

Essentially, priority one is needs intervention now.

Priority four, is the condition can be managed safely for a period of time.

Everyone is level 4 unless their doctor says otherwise.

Your doctor decides how urgent you are, in consultation w/specialists as appropriate.

It means the wait for cancer surgery rarely exceeds 2 weeks; but the wait for a knee replacement could vary from 2 months to more than six.

But in the latter case, no one would be left debilitated. If they were that bad, they'd be bumped up the list.

In the interim, they'd be given physio, and medication.



As noted above, no one has that job. You made that up, as you do most things you post.



Once again, completely made up up lies. Doesn't matter to you that Canada's child poverty rate is much lower than the US rate, or that more go on to graduate HS or Uni.

No child starves to death here unless its the rarest case of well hidden child abuse.

Its not lies and just like when we went down this road before,I provided you with links from your own government to back it up.

You just cannot close your eyes and pretend it goes away or does not exist,it does not work that way,just like the little cheap shots that you think actually bolsters your case,that’s just your subconscious keeping your eyes closed so you do not see the brick wall that you are slamming your head into.

Thats the conditioning process,to think it is perfectly normal to choose ones level of healthcare according to a standard based on social worth.

The doctors make that decision? Whoever writes the check to the doctor sets the rules,if the doctor wants to get paid they will do as the check writer requests.

If not as sub contractors they may find them selves with fewer and fewer opportunities.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I do not care if you despise me or not,you cannot change the facts,no matter how hard you try to be blind to them.

How you personally think about me has zero relevance to the discussion,besides I turned 59 yesterday and by Canadian standards I would be considered past the socially excepted age and should turn myself in for processing.

Have you thought about what happens when you reach that age and your doctor looks at you and says,sorry bud,there is a 20 year old out in the lobby.

At that time you should remember the policies that you supported and found exceptable,that will now apply to you personally.

[Honky Tonk]

You know you have to have a Health Card, government issued photo ID to get healthcare services in Canada, right?

We don't hand those out to just anyone.....LOL

I know Canada doesn't. They've also curtailed people applying for Canadian citizenship, even if they have the necessary qualifications.
[[another story for another time) Serious question. Did you watch the first Bernie video? How did those United States women get to see a Canadian doctor right away, and who is going to be charged and pay for that?

[Canadian Visitor]

How you personally think about me has zero relevance to the discussion,besides I turned 59 yesterday and by Canadian standards I would be considered past the socially excepted age and should turn myself in for processing.

Canadian doctors don't negotiate with the insurer, at all, ever.

There is no contact. None, zero, zilch.

That's just not how its done, no matter how much you apparently wish it was otherwise.

My parents are both deceased now...but I was their primary care giver in their declining years.

Both received excellent care in their seventies.

My mother received surgery on her eye lids, post-stroke, in her final year of life.

My father got back surgery, in his final year of life.

He got it within days of it being recommended.

Real story, real facts.

***

PS, Canadians live longer than Americans.......there is no 'processing' LOL.......

How was your alien probing the other night, Mr. Tin Foil hat?

[Canadian Visitor]

I know Canada doesn't. They've also curtailed people applying for Canadian citizenship, even if they have the necessary qualifications.
[[another story for another time) Serious question. Did you watch the first Bernie video? How did those United States women get to see a Canadian doctor right away, and who is going to be charged and pay for that?

I don't know their individual circumstances.........but I imagine they got the appointment the same way anyone would, by phoning and asking for one.

These caravans across the border aren't spontaneous....they're planned.

As for who pays, they would.

Either in cash/debit/credit or through their American insurer if applicable.

That's perfectly legal.

Foreigners here have to get medical care too.

Depending on your circumstances. [[ie. if you're a student here or employed here legally vs being a tourist) you may buy into the public system here, or buy private insurance, or you may just pay cash etc.)

Just as they paid the drugstore for the insulin.

No different.

Doctors here also accept cash from Canadians for non-insured services. Everything from a doctor's note, to cosmetic work, to an employment related physical/certificate etc.

[Honky Tonk]

I don't know their individual circumstances.........but I imagine they got the appointment the same way anyone would, by phoning and asking for one.

These caravans across the border aren't spontaneous....they're planned.

As for who pays, they would.

Either in cash/debit/credit or through their American insurer if applicable.

That's perfectly legal.

Foreigners here have to get medical care too.

Depending on your circumstances. [[ie. if you're a student here or employed here legally vs being a tourist) you may buy into the public system here, or buy private insurance, or you may just pay cash etc.)

Just as they paid the drugstore for the insulin.

No different.

Doctors here also accept cash from Canadians for non-insured services. Everything from a doctor's note, to cosmetic work, to an employment related physical/certificate etc.

The way she said they talked to a doctor for 15 minutes, I got the impression it was s.o.p. for getting a prescription filled in Canada. You used to be able to buy Canadian prescription drugs online, but they ended that. The AMA doesn't care for competition. Healthcare in general here is outrageous, prescription drugs more so.