Welcome to Bernie/Independent/Third Party Land

[Honky Tonk]

^^^ Well, back to Bernie: I think he's done. Past his prime [[from when he ran with Mrs. Clinton). How many Detroiter's [[even dyed-in-the-wool dems) are REALLY willing to take a chance on a candidate so nakedly socialist?

AOC, some years down the road? Yes, maybe. She might be able to bring it [[a full socialist agenda). Some are saying she's being groomed for such.

Again, with no offense to Pam, I watched the video on Bernie taking Americans over to Canada to buy prescriptions. Based on CV's replies, it seems some editorial license was taken with the presentation. These people were treated well, but part of the reason is this was prearranged and a photo opp. IMO, the video bares a strong resemblance to Michael Moore's "Sicko", and was done as a publicity stunt. Is price-gouging prescription medicine a problem in the States? Absolutely! But I didn't walk away from the video feeling Bernie is going to change all that for me.

[Pam]

Again, with no offense to Pam, I watched the video on Bernie taking Americans over to Canada to buy prescriptions. Based on CV's replies, it seems some editorial license was taken with the presentation. These people were treated well, but part of the reason is this was prearranged and a photo opp. IMO, the video bares a strong resemblance to Michael Moore's "Sicko", and was done as a publicity stunt. Is price-gouging prescription medicine a problem in the States? Absolutely! But I didn't walk away from the video feeling Bernie is going to change all that for me.

I'm sure they had to pre-arrange the visit. It was a form of publicity stunt, so what? It brought attention to the issue and those folks were helped to save money.

I know Bernie has an uphill battle against entrenched interests to make changes but at least he is willing to try. I will take my chances with him over a candidate that thinks the current system is just fine.

[Pam]

Bernie is not done.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...ts-Gallup-poll

He is still attracting crowds everywhere he goes. He has a million volunteers working on his campaign. He is doing well on donations- all from regular people not corporate pacs.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Well he'll do better ditching the rhetoric of demeaning capitalism and millionaires whole-clothe, considering much of his own riches were derived within that system.

[Richard]

^ the problem is it is not considered as taking a chance because the results of his brand of overall socialism is well documented as to the results.

I do have to give him credit though because he has convinced millions that they are only worth $15 per hour and they love him for it.

He said that Americans pay double for thier healthcare costs verses Canada but yet there are plenty of links out there that show it is about the same at $10,000 per year.

Under socialism what did people use before candles?

Electricity

They still have not shown how they are planning on paying for all of these programs,the favorite is by forcing the rich corporations to pay for it but even at that it would not even put a dent in the costs.

The UK tried that in the 50s in the form of a death tax,all the wealthy did was remove the roofs from the grand estates in order to devalue them and move to cheaper labor markets,which left the working class to pay for it with fewer jobs at a lower wage.

Wipe out a trillion in student debt? Somebody is going to pay for it somewhere and as we seen in the real estate crash,it’s not the bankers,it is the people that end up in the street.

The socialist policies have centuries of proof as to how they work out,a cat can stand up and promise the world but until they can show how it will all be paid for,there is no substance.

To vote somebody into office without knowing that little detail is like handing a street corner panhandler your credit card and telling them to go buy lunch with it,risky and considering the risk here is 325 million lives and the damage it causes will not be known until it is to late.

Besides I am still waiting on my check from Bernie,how come he does not want to share his wealth,just everybody else’s.

[Zacha341]

Keep waiting... This 'form' of elite will never live under that which they dictate. The same folks at the top, remain. They desire to redistribute everyone elses moneys, assets etc. NOT THEIR OWN.

At least with the repub-ubs you're not expecting such benevolence, or empathy.

...I am still waiting on my check from Bernie, how come he does not want to share his wealth, just everybody else’s.

[Canadian Visitor]

Keep waiting... This 'form' of elite will never live under that which they dictate. The same folks at the top, remain. They desire to redistribute everyone elses moneys, assets etc. NOT THEIR OWN.

At least with the repub-ubs you're not expecting such benevolence, or empathy.

Putting aside ideological and partisan politics, this way of thinking seems like complete defeatism and in soccer parlance and own goal.

You can elect people who will make sacrifice of their own, with their own money, not just yours.

In Ontario, a very long time ago, a Liberal premier decided to get rid of the Vice regal [[lieutenant governor's) residence and made them live in a private home like everyone else.

In the mid-90s, a Conservative government decided to end pensions for provincial politicians. They get only the same Canada Pension and private savings as everyone else.

Canadian politicians do not get their own healthcare system. Yes, some of the richest ones and and will go anywhere in the world they wish for healthcare, but the vast majority, including the rich ones, use the same system as everyone else.

The notion that you can't elect people to office in Michigan or the US w/the same attitude is just wrong. You will never get better if you don't assume you can, and indeed, insist on it.

[Canadian Visitor]

He said that Americans pay double for thier healthcare costs verses Canada but yet there are plenty of links out there that show it is about the same at $10,000 per year.

.

This is covered in the CNBC link I posted above. Sanders is right, you are wrong, to the surprise of no one.

Under socialism what did people use before candles?

Electricity

Yes, Richard, all of Europe is in darkness, they don't have the internet or hot showers or running water either.

Listen, when you finally get enough coin together to get on a plane, go to Europe, assuming they'd let you visit...........

You'll find they have a higher penetration rate of cellphones than the U.S., and 4G internet/phone all over the place, and the standard of living has not gone to hell, because the sales tax is 17-20%. Because instead they get free University, comprehensive healthcare, more vacation time etc.

You can not want that for yourself. That's fine. But don't make up BS because you don't know.

The socialist policies have centuries of proof as to how they work out,a cat can stand up and promise the world but until they can show how it will all be paid for,there is no substance.

Here's the rub, in northern Europe, debt to GDP is LOWER than in the United States, not higher. They've paid for their choices, very clearly, with higher taxation. Its not complicated or mysterious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...by_public_debt

Note the US has debt to GDP of 82.3%

Finland is 63.8%
Sweden is 39%
Norway is 37%
Denmark is 31%

Turns out its not ruinous.

Btw, you often conflate communism with social democracy. They are not the same. Just sayin

To vote somebody into office without knowing that little detail is like handing a street corner panhandler your credit card and telling them to go buy lunch with it,risky and considering the risk here is 325 million lives and the damage it causes will not be known until it is to late.

The one sort of sensible thing you said. You absolutely should see costed plans from every candidate for president, by they of the left or right.

[Zacha341]

I am hopeful [[not all glum), but that person is not Bernie Sanders.

And yes we should insist on better!

You can elect people who will make sacrifice of their own, with their own money, not just yours.

Pensions removed for politicians! That had to be a surprise!

In the mid-90s, a Conservative government decided to end pensions for provincial politicians. They get only the same Canada Pension and private savings as everyone else.

[Honky Tonk]

Bernie is not done.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...ts-Gallup-poll

He is still attracting crowds everywhere he goes. He has a million volunteers working on his campaign. He is doing well on donations- all from regular people not corporate pacs.

Pam, Is NAFTA really good for America and American workers? Is the ACA really affordable for everyone? Is a wall really being built between the USA and Mexico, and is Mexico paying for it? Millions of people go to McDonald's every day, are they really getting good, nutritious, healthy food?

[Pam]

Pam, Is NAFTA really good for America and American workers? Is the ACA really affordable for everyone? Is a wall really being built between the USA and Mexico, and is Mexico paying for it? Millions of people go to McDonald's every day, are they really getting good, nutritious, healthy food?

What's your point? I gave you facts. Vote for him or not. I don't care.

[Pam]

^^^ Well he'll do better ditching the rhetoric of demeaning capitalism and millionaires whole-clothe, considering much of his own riches were derived within that system.

You've got Biden and the rest sucking up to the rich, Bernie doesn't need to. Bernie made money from writing a book. Hardly the same thing as the CEO of Amazon or some Wall Street kingpin. If you don't want to vote for him, fine. You are underestimating his popularity though.

[Zacha341]

If the dems want to win they best whittle it on down to Biden.

That twenty-deep stack-a-folks is really starting to come off crazy and divisive.

Biden's not a strong candidate [[obviously), has three-wheeled wobbly baggage [[as do most of them), but he'd be conduit enough for most of their ideas!

With perhaps even a smidge of centrism and libertarianism we can all stand!

[Zacha341]

I never said the rest don't do it. But the far left 'claim' not to was my point.

A book alone? I'd research that a tad. Throw in the Google empire and FB kingdom along with Wall Street! Wait, I best not say that. They may be monitoring......

Perhaps I'm underestimating Sanders popularity.

But will that be enough for him to win? He has his age against him as well.

And sadly I'm not impressed with the others. What a mess! Just like 2016.

Then again he may win heartily! President Sanders!!

Always expect the unexpected, I say!

You've got Biden and the rest sucking up to the rich, Bernie doesn't need to. Bernie made money from writing a book. Hardly the same thing as the CEO of Amazon or some Wall Street kingpin. If you don't want to vote for him, fine. You are underestimating his popularity though.

[Honky Tonk]

^^^ Well he'll do better ditching the rhetoric of demeaning capitalism and millionaires whole-clothe, considering much of his own riches were derived within that system.

He's saying what he needs to say to get followers and votes. You won't see the real Bernie until after he's in office.

[Canadian Visitor]

Pam, Is NAFTA really good for America and American workers?

I'm not Pam, but LOL, I'll put my 2 cents in here.

The Canada-US FTA was good for American workers, as it shifted jobs from Canada to the US, at the time.

NAFTA turned around and relocated many of those same jobs to Mexico, so probably not so good for the American worker....though, many of those jobs probably would have been held by Mexicans illegally in the United States when the jobs were there, so six of one, half dozen of the other.

Both of these agreements are about freedom of capital and are primarily of benefit to investors/business owners. They can have some knock-on benefit to consumers in the form of lower prices, but that doesn't help the worker who lost their job all that much.

That said, agreements like this could be more closely modeled on the Common Market portion of the E-U and produce a greater benefit for workers.

Whether Americans or Canadians necessarily want this is another question.

Two key differences in Europe would be that there are certain minimum labour standards that are imposed across the E-U.

ie. 4 weeks paid vacation by law. Any country is free to set a higher standard than the E-U minimum, but they can't set less.

This sort of thing could be incorporated into a NAFTA or USMCA agreement if so desired.

Agreeing on a minimum standards for vacation, a 40-hour work week, parental leave etc. or given the problematically low minimum wage in Mexico, could tackle that by requiring a gradual rise in the Mexican minimum wage to at least 1/2 the US Federal level over 10 years or such.

The second difference in an E-U style deal is that it provides mobility of labour.

ie. every Mexican would have the right to work in the U.S. or Canada; but likewise, every American [[and Canadian) would have those same rights.

Labour would be as mobile [[in theory) as capital.

In the real world, its not quite so easy to up and move your family to another country, even 1,000 miles down the road in your own.

It also has the potential to cause problems [[see what the Brits think of the number of Polish plumbers they have....)

But at least its more equal that the current arrangement here in North America.

***

Is the ACA really affordable for everyone?

Self-evidently not. What it was, was a profoundly complicated compromise to extend more care [[insurance) to more Americans.

It was deeply flawed [[and remains such), but it was better than what preceded it, for the majority.

The question is not whether it needs fixing; the question is how to fix it, and how to pay for those fixes.

Is a wall really being built between the USA and Mexico, and is Mexico paying for it?

Bits and pieces of one and no.

Millions of people go to McDonald's every day, are they really getting good, nutritious, healthy food?

Of course not! LOL

Not sure what this has to do w/Bernie except by way of saying some things that popular still aren't very good.

But that argument could apply to anyone or anything that's popular, it doesn't say that Bernie isn't popular which I think was Pam's point.

McDonalds is a viable business and Bernie a viable candidate.

That the world would be better off if the former went out of business is neither here nor there.

[Pam]

He's saying what he needs to say to get followers and votes. You won't see the real Bernie until after he's in office.

He's saying what he actually believes in. That's why people like him. Why don't you check his record? He's been consistent.

[Zacha341]

True. That's the way of it. The goal is of course to secure a base: dems and repubs do that alike. Along with the 'flotsam' base one might rather not have yet still benefit from.

Yes, I can see why younger voters would support/ vote for him.

He's saying what he needs to say to get followers and votes. You won't see the real Bernie until after he's in office.

[Jimaz]

... You won't see the real Bernie until after he's in office.

I don't understand. He's already in office. He's held, what? 15 public offices since 1981? He already has an established reputation with which his constituents seem quite satisfied.

Electoral history of Bernie Sanders

Do you mean that when the office is that of the president, it's somehow different? It is somehow more corrupting?

That might explain a lot of things about the current amateur in office, hmm?

[Honky Tonk]

I don't understand. He's already in office. He's held, what? 15 public offices since 1981? He already has an established reputation with which his constituents seem quite satisfied.

Electoral history of Bernie Sanders

Do you mean that when the office is that of the president, it's somehow different? It is somehow more corrupting?

That might explain a lot of things about the current amateur in office, hmm?

He does a remake of Sicko, makes outrageous promises about wealth redistribution, free tuition, free healthcare, pandering for votes, while he's a millionaire. [[still waiting on my wealth redistribution check, Bernie) releases a 50 year old videos about being chained to something. It's a bigger laugh then someone amassing a net worth of $24 million in just 4 short years as Secretary of State. I guess it's better to have a professional huckster in office, hmmm?

[Pam]

Speaking of Nafta, Bernie voted against it.

As I said above, Bernie made money from writing a book. What is wrong with that? How does that disqualify him from caring about people at the bottom? I'm sorry you think he's a fraud Honky Tonk. As I said before, check his record. He doesn't get tons of money for giving speeches to Goldman Sachs like Clinton and Obama. Nobody is perfect but I still think he's the best we have.

[canuck]

Speaking of Nafta, Bernie voted against it.

As I said above, Bernie made money from writing a book. What is wrong with that? How does that disqualify him from caring about people at the bottom? I'm sorry you think he's a fraud Honky Tonk. As I said before, check his record. He doesn't get tons of money for giving speeches to Goldman Sachs like Clinton and Obama. Nobody is perfect but I still think he's the best we have.

Well Pam, the one in the White House made money and lost at running casinos. He must love his people a great deal, if like Jesus, he gives up everything in order for them to be redeemed, lol.

That is better than any socialist scheme the dems will dream up.

[Richard]

Again, with no offense to Pam, I watched the video on Bernie taking Americans over to Canada to buy prescriptions. Based on CV's replies, it seems some editorial license was taken with the presentation. These people were treated well, but part of the reason is this was prearranged and a photo opp. IMO, the video bares a strong resemblance to Michael Moore's "Sicko", and was done as a publicity stunt. Is price-gouging prescription medicine a problem in the States? Absolutely! But I didn't walk away from the video feeling Bernie is going to change all that for me.

What they do not want to recognize is that the current administration [[Trump) has been working on a prescription bill that would allow purchasing from Canada and other options that will drive prices down.

It is delayed or will be because of big pharmaceutical taking it to court and the drug administration saying they are unsafe and dangerous to Americans.

So you know who pays the USDAs side money.

Thats the difference,the previous administration talked about it for 8 years,Bernie has been talking about it for 40 years,President Trump has been in office a little over two years and is already taking action.

And actually working on it without having to convert the country into a socialist haven.

[Richard]

Well Pam, the one in the White House made money and lost at running casinos. He must love his people a great deal, if like Jesus, he gives up everything in order for them to be redeemed, lol.

That is better than any socialist scheme the dems will dream up.

He did not actually lose money and he never actually ran casinos

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-bankruptcies/

How was Ireland? Did you find the leprechaun under the bridge with a wee pot of gold ?

[Honky Tonk]

How was Ireland? Did you find the leprechaun under the bridge with a wee pot of gold ?

Maybe just found a leprechaun with a wee bit of pot.