But when Oakland County did it to Detroit for 50 years, it was OK, right?

**middetres** · September-19-17, 07:28 AM

Cannibalization has been the only regional growth strategy for decades. But it's only a problem now because Detroit is doing the cannibalizing? Gee...I wonder why?

It was the wrong strategy then and it's the wrong one now, but where was the outrage and criticism in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s?

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opi...ley/105767334/

**313WX** · September-19-17, 07:51 AM

What exactly should be taken away from that article? I'm not seeing it.

**Johnnny5** · September-19-17, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by middetres

It was the wrong strategy then and it's the wrong one now, but where was the outrage and criticism in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s?

There was plenty of outrage and criticism about people and companies leaving Detroit for Oakland County over that time period. Heck, even here on D-Yes it is a time honored tradition for some to still complain about it.

**rb336** · September-19-17, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

What exactly should be taken away from that article? I'm not seeing it.

Hypocrisy.

**Bham1982** · September-19-17, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by middetres

It was the wrong strategy then and it's the wrong one now, but where was the outrage and criticism in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s?

You're unaware that there was extensive "outrage and criticism" at Detroit's plundering over the past half century? Seriously?

The article specifics are actually spot-on. The Palace, a 100% privately funded venue, is being shuttered in favor of a taxpayer funded boondoggle, and the region is going from two competitive arenas to one.

The consumer loses. The region loses. Regional concerts and events will be less numerous and more expensive. Tax dollars were wasted on nothing.

**mwilbert** · September-19-17, 08:37 AM

I agree that it is better to bring jobs from out of state.

However, if you want to bring jobs from out of state, a key factor would seem to be a stronger core city, and moving jobs into town from Oakland County is probably a good way of strengthening the core city.

Note that this is a different question from stadium subsidies, but they were building the Red Wings facility anyway so I'm not sure how much the fact that the arena as a whole is a massive boondoggle has to do with the relatively cheap poaching of the Pistons.

**401don** · September-19-17, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

You're unaware that there was extensive "outrage and criticism" at Detroit's plundering over the past half century? Seriously?

The article specifics are actually spot-on. The Palace, a 100% privately funded venue, is being shuttered in favor of a taxpayer funded boondoggle, and the region is going from two competitive arenas to one.

The consumer loses. The region loses. Regional concerts and events will be less numerous and more expensive. Tax dollars were wasted on nothing.

I'm quite certain Gore's mkting studies confirmed what everyone already knew. Apart from a few suite holders and season ticket holders the vast majority of consumers of Pistons games and concerts prefer to go downtown to a game, even perhaps to the point of paying a few dollars more, so I'm not sure how the consumer loses.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · September-19-17, 09:15 AM

Businesses will tend to flow to the places with the best operating conditions. Those conditions include tax rates and regulatory environment, crime, available labor pool, potential customer base, access to needed transportation or parking, etc. Also in that group of things affecting decisions, obviously, is if any money [[taxpayer or otherwise) is available to help pay for some business costs. That can be direct cash to relocate; that can also be subsidies to [[re)train the unemployed, clean up a toxic site, etc. Businesses have to determine where they can make the most money in the long run, and they move based on that determination.

Detroit for years was seen as a place where most businesses could thrive only with the aid of subsidies. Now, thankfully, that is changing. Suburban sites still have a lot of legitimate appeal, but the advantages versus being in the city are no longer as crystal clear. And- this is important- they no longer appear to be the "future" of our economic growth. That has returned to the city.

It is in Detroit's best interests to have thriving suburbs. I want every Michigan business to operate in the place that will allow them to be the most competitive and successful. For many that will mean Detroit; for some that will mean suburbs. Still others will find rural areas the best to set up shop. I hold no grudge against any firm that moves to allow for its own growth. Negative feelings about such things are not only unproductive, they are self-destructive.

In the long run, the relocation game isn't how growth occurs. It occurs when Detroit has conditions that allow the businesses that are here to operate without onerous taxation, heavy regulation, fear of prevalent crime, or without essential services. Which side of 8 Mile a company does business on is not relevant to me. That it can make a profit, pay its employees, and contribute to the community is far more important.

**313WX** · September-19-17, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

Hypocrisy.

I get that, but we already know about this. It's like beating a dead horse.

Yes, LBP is going to bitch and moan about the shuffling around of chairs from Oakland County to the city. Big fucking deal. That's the way it should have always been.

**Honky Tonk** · September-19-17, 09:31 AM

L. Brooks is sounding more and more like Bham1982 everyday.

**Bham1982** · September-19-17, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

L. Brooks is sounding more and more like Bham1982 everyday.

Or more like any rational, sentient being?

Does it make sense for a stagnant metro to spend many hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to tear down two perfectly good competitive arenas for one noncompetitive arena?

Do you find it odd that the county executive would advocate for their county?

I find neither issue to be particularly compelling or controversial.

**Honky Tonk** · September-19-17, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Or more like any rational, sentient being?

Does it make sense for a stagnant metro to spend many hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to tear down two perfectly good competitive arenas for one noncompetitive arena?

Do you find it odd that the county executive would advocate for their county?

I find neither issue to be particularly compelling or controversial.

You are right on all accounts, Bham. If something goes wrong with Detroit again, the coliseum owners will be out of here like a flash, again.

DetroitNightLights · September-19-17, 10:54 AM

The arenas were redundant.

The companies who moved downtown were the ones who were losing talent to other cities. Oakland County can't keep millennial talent who prefers city life, Detroit can.

Wasn't it this Patterson guy who used to say that the suburbs no longer needed Detroit, that Oakland County could just break away on their own? I think the animosity comes from comments like that.

The two really need each other. It is a shame that the people of Oakland County have elected a man without the vision, mental fortitude, and charisma to make that happen, and bring Oakland County into the 21st Century.

**casscorridor** · September-19-17, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitNightLights

The arenas were redundant.

The companies who moved downtown were the ones who were losing talent to other cities. Oakland County can't keep millennial talent who prefer city life, Detroit can.

Wasn't it this Patterson guy who used to say that the suburbs no longer needed Detroit, that Oakland County could just break away on their own? I think the animosity comes from comments like that.

The two really need each other. It is a shame that the people of Oakland County have elected a man without the vision, mental fortitude, and charisma to make that happen, and bring Oakland County into the 21st Century.

Imagine a different individual leading Oakland county, one would want to work with Detroit, not against it. One who would push for regionalization, and a regional transport system. It's not impossible to imagine a regional rail system being built within the span of a couple decades. Denver, Portland, Houston and Los Angeles have all built systems very quickly, with lines crisscrossing suburban areas similar to Oakland County. There is no *good* reason Detroit can't do the same.

**Tig3rzhark** · September-19-17, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Imagine a different individual leading Oakland county, one would want to work with Detroit, not against it. One who would push for regionalization, and a regional transport system. It's not impossible to imagine a regional rail system being built within the span of a couple decades. Denver, Portland, Houston and Los Angeles have all built systems very quickly, with lines crisscrossing suburban areas similar to Oakland County. There is no *good* reason Detroit can't do the same.

Remember, the part that both Oakland and Macomb will need leadership that really can cooperate with Detroit. Otherwise any hope we have in economic revival will be all talk and no action.

**EastsideAl** · September-19-17, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

You're unaware that there was extensive "outrage and criticism" at Detroit's plundering over the past half century? Seriously?

The article specifics are actually spot-on. The Palace, a 100% privately funded venue, is being shuttered in favor of a taxpayer funded boondoggle, and the region is going from two competitive arenas to one.

The consumer loses. The region loses. Regional concerts and events will be less numerous and more expensive. Tax dollars were wasted on nothing.

Yeah, but at least we won't have to drive 70 miles out into the middle of nowhere anymore to see a goddamn basketball game. I'm more than willing to live without the Palace just for that reason alone. And I'm not at all sorry that some folks in Oakland County feel a little hurt by it.

Oh, and ol' L. Brooks can go to hell. In fact, the sooner for that inevitable eventuality to come to pass the better.

**SammyS** · September-19-17, 06:59 PM

Unfortunately for the suburb, the pendulum has already started to swing back in Detroit's favor and in line with what a typical metropolis resembles. High density, high cost and affluence downtown whilst tapering off the further you move out. Heavy industry can remain away, but HQ's, retail and entertainment must be centralized.

But it doesn't matter what Patterson, Gilbert or anyone else thinks. The market, which encompasses financiers, investors and planners with the will, foresight and means, will eventually decide and their decision must be based on exposure vs. affordability. Evidently, many have already determined that NOW is the right time to act.

The suburbs will always play their part but I expect there will be a time not too far in the future, where folks will be gauging property value and desirability on its vicinity to downtown Detroit. I'm betting my money on this.

**O3H** · September-19-17, 11:21 PM

There are a HUGE amount of people who simply don't give a damn about Hockey, Baseball, or Basketball - hence they don't spend money downtown for the accompanying restaurants, bars, etc.

Another HUGE group never gambles on anything, so the casino "thing" is a massive bust in that regard.

Getting folks from the suburbs to spend money in Detroit, at its venues, shops, restaurants, etc. isn't as easy as some may think it is. Most do just fine without ever entering the city limits, because frankly the D really doesn't have much to offer.

**dtowncitylover** · September-19-17, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by O3H

Most do just fine without ever entering the city limits, because frankly the D really doesn't have much to offer.

Uh lol ok

Because 45 Mile and Macomb County Rd is such a mecca for things to do.

**401don** · September-20-17, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by O3H

There are a HUGE amount of people who simply don't give a damn about Hockey, Baseball, or Basketball - hence they don't spend money downtown for the accompanying restaurants, bars, etc.

Another HUGE group never gambles on anything, so the casino "thing" is a massive bust in that regard.

Getting folks from the suburbs to spend money in Detroit, at its venues, shops, restaurants, etc. isn't as easy as some may think it is. Most do just fine without ever entering the city limits, because frankly the D really doesn't have much to offer.

Didn't you hear? Downtown is getting a combined Applebee's/IHOP so those peoples needs will be met as well.

**rex** · September-20-17, 02:38 PM

Oakland County can only benefit from a strong Detroit, Washtenaw and Macomb as well. Really need to abandon the us against them ideology that has plagued the region for all these years. Downtown/midtown is nearing saturation. Where might you go if you can be downtown? IDK, Southfield, Troy, Farmington Hills, Novi for starters.

**Junjie** · September-20-17, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by rex

Oakland County can only benefit from a strong Detroit, Washtenaw and Macomb as well. Really need to abandon the us against them ideology that has plagued the region for all these years. Downtown/midtown is nearing saturation. Where might you go if you can be downtown? IDK, Southfield, Troy, Farmington Hills, Novi for starters.

Agree with your overall point but disagree that downtown/midtown are anywhere near saturation. Tons of empty land and parking lots still to be filled in.

**SammyS** · September-20-17, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Junjie

Agree with your overall point but disagree that downtown/midtown are anywhere near saturation. Tons of empty land and parking lots still to be filled in.

Very true. Even across the arena there are acres left to develop. Although there may be height restrictions in Brush Park, it doesn't mean high density residential like those on John R or City Modern can't bring a few thousand more units.

**mtburb** · September-20-17, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by rex

Oakland County can only benefit from a strong Detroit, Washtenaw and Macomb as well. Really need to abandon the us against them ideology that has plagued the region for all these years. Downtown/midtown is nearing saturation. Where might you go if you can be downtown? IDK, Southfield, Troy, Farmington Hills, Novi for starters.

The northwesternmost areas of Oakland County also [[and albeit more so due to distance from Detroit) have to benefit from a strong Flint, which may not even be possible until the water situation is dealt with.