Possible New Life for Michigan Central Station? Ford Motor Co. a Buyer? YES!

[Hermod]

Could some wall be removed to increase floor plans?

The restrictive space is caused by the exterior walls. The offices are in a very narrow building set on top of a grand train hall. The offices were not meant for executives, they housed a large army of freight clerks, traffic clerks, car accounting clerks, and billing clerks slaving away under less than pleasant conditions. Almost all male considering there is one large restroom on the floor with stalls on one side and urinals on the other. At the other end of the building is a tiny lavatory which may have been for women.

[bust]

It's wise to be skeptical, of course.
But for fun, how could this work?
The 54' x 210' center portion could be converted into big open floor plans.
All utilities would have to be updated so they could have as many bathrooms as they want.
And offices as nice as they want.
They could be in one or both of the ends of the building, and if they want some in the center they wouldn't have to line the full length nor both exterior walls.
It can vary by floor.
There is nothing inherent in the shape of the building that prohibits a renovation that makes it an attractive place to work.
On the contrary, no one would be more than about 26 feet from a window.
And what a view!

[Hypestyles]

In the finest tradition of DetroitYes, always willing to lavishly spend other people's money [[OPM).

Ford Corp. is quite profitable. They have more money than they let on. Might as well buy it and fix it up really nice. It would be a much better legacy for the surviving Ford family than how the senior Mr. Moroun will be remembered. Include an all new Detroit Public School with a STEM curriculum.

[Don K]

I agree. But all the plans for rail to Ann Arbor have been pathetic at best. A whopping 6 scheduled departures per day. Conventional locomotive commuter rail should be discarded in favor of electrified high-frequency metro-style commuter rail with direct connections between Downtown, Corktown, East Dearborn, West Dearborn, Metro Airport, Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor. The system could then be expanded in the future.

Hey c'mon, diesel-electric works just fine for Chicago's Metra [[other than the ex-Illinois Central lines) and for Boston's MBTA. I get that electrified is super-cool, but baby steps, please, baby steps. The heavy fixed-investment of hanging catenary pre-supposes large ridership. Let's do proof-of-concept first, then worry about electrifying.

That said, I'm all in for rail service from downtown to A2. I doubt this line could easily be routed to DTW, because it runs close to Michigan Ave, whereas the closest rail line to DTW is the Norfolk Southern [[ex-Wabash) line.

[Lowell]

Maybe this brings Wayne County back in the tenant mix? From Crains:

Before Ford Motor Co. emerged yesterday as the leading suitor for the long-vacant Michigan Central Station, Wayne County had months of discussions last year with its owner on a large lease to move at least 500 county employees there from the Guardian Building downtown.

Khalil Rahal, the county's economic development director and assistant county executive, said in an interview with Crain's Tuesday that the county had explored for six to eight months moving employees into the 500,000-square-foot former train station building at 2001 15th St. in Detroit's Corktown neighborhood.

The county scrapped the idea around late October because it would have paid more in the train depot than it's currently paying in Guardian Building at 500 Griswold St. But the discussions are another sign that the train station, a physical symbol of Detroit's decline, is drawing serious interest in reviving it.

To make the deal work, the county would have sold the Guardian; the county has said it will not sell the building for less than it takes to retire the bonds issued to finance improvements to it made during the administration of former County Executive Robert Ficano.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20180321/news/655791/wayne-county-also-had-discussions-about-moving-offices-to-train-station

[mikeg19]

Ford Corp. is quite profitable. They have more money than they let on. Might as well buy it and fix it up really nice. It would be a much better legacy for the surviving Ford family than how the senior Mr. Moroun will be remembered. Include an all new Detroit Public School with a STEM curriculum.

According to quarterly financials, it is the least profitable when it comes to actual margins. Why is the stock languishing while other autos have risen quite a bit? Why is there a revolving door or executive management and their CEO was ousted recently? Bottom line is they make something like 81% of their profits from F-150. Anything that disrupts that and they have serious problems, hence why they are trying to [[and may I add about 5 years too late) bring on a slew of new SUV's and crossovers as well as bringing back the Ranger and Bronco. Ford dropped the ball BIG TIME when they said "yea were making money, lets keep the status quo." Now everyone has passed them up. So much for that whole "Leaders in Innovation" crap they sell everyone.

[WALD0123]

As far as reactivating the station to work with the proposed A2-DET commuter line, the distance from downtown issue remains. Much closer than the New Center station but still not getting you where you want to go. Obviously the New Center location has QLine access which can get you downtown but as someone who's tried it [[took the $5 Amtrak option twice last summer), it's just not a feasible commute/trip unless you're going to New Center [[this is largely the QLine's fault as discussed in other threads here). I think the prospects of success for a commuter line lie in increased frequency and routing to downtown.

My question is this: Is there a way to route commuter trains into downtown from MCS? I have postulated before on running the trains right down Michigan Avenue [[skipping MCS) as there is so much ROW but if MCS is say, a Corktown stop on the way in, how do we get it downtown? Eat a street like Bagley, Howard or Lafayette?

[hybridy]

AMUSING
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...museum-for-its

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

As far as reactivating the station to work with the proposed A2-DET commuter line, the distance from downtown issue remains. Much closer than the New Center station but still not getting you where you want to go. Obviously the New Center location has QLine access which can get you downtown but as someone who's tried it [[took the $5 Amtrak option twice last summer), it's just not a feasible commute/trip unless you're going to New Center [[this is largely the QLine's fault as discussed in other threads here). I think the prospects of success for a commuter line lie in increased frequency and routing to downtown.

My question is this: Is there a way to route commuter trains into downtown from MCS? I have postulated before on running the trains right down Michigan Avenue [[skipping MCS) as there is so much ROW but if MCS is say, a Corktown stop on the way in, how do we get it downtown? Eat a street like Bagley, Howard or Lafayette?

I commuted from A2 to Detroit on Amtrak in the early 1980's when the MCS was still open. There was always a dedicated bus to take us immediately to the Financial District and a bus to take commuters back to the station for the two trains at the end of the day.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

While all discussion of prospective developments is fun, interesting and sometimes productive, everyone should be aware that there is absolutely no prospect of MCS being used as a heavy gauge rail station again in any form whatsoever. Regardless of whoever owns or renovates the station. It is prohibitively expensive, it does not make locational sense in terms of commuting needs and habits, and routing and infrastructure issues would make doing it a nightmare, potentially impossible. That would all be true even if Amazon wanted to put its global HQ there and would pick up the whole tab. The very many stakeholders [[Amtrak, MDOT, City of Detroit, track owners, etc) would be very difficult to corral into a cohesive organized plan. And doing it presupposes that the station would be offering a new rail service that would appeal to lots of potential consumers not currently using mass transit. That is false.

What a development at the Depot COULD do for transit includes: help further the need for light rail and BRT lines and stops along Michigan Ave; warrant more and better DDOT local bus service in the area. Additionally, this could spur improvements to the Michigan Ave streetscape, including new landscaped medians, new signage, bike lanes, etc.

[Jason]

I agree with Mike. Even though downtown would be a more desirable location for a station, with the existing infrastructure and operations, the New Center location is a very natural location, and downtown is a very unnatural location.


Something imo to note about the crain's article is that the deal is not done, and it's far off from potentially being done. My guess is that this is being leaked by Ford in order to gauge public opinion and possibly put pressure on Moroun.

The reason Moroun owns MCS in the first place is because it's a large property right by the train tunnel to Canada. Last I heard, the train tunnel is too short to accommodate current train freight, and there's an idea of turning the tunnel into a trucking tunnel and building a new train crossing. Moroun's actual business is a trucking business. The reason he owns the Ambassador Bridge is because it's advantageous for his trucking company.

He bought MCS for the land's strategic value, not for the building. Whether or not a renovation is financially feasible doesn't matter to him, because the building is irrelevant to him. So I personally don't see them doing the deal unless the strategic value of the land is preserved for him.

[Richard]

^ I agree with that,although it could still be used as a train station,just have to figure out how to complement it so it does not serve a single use,even if Ford did go through I doubt they would have any interest in mass transit or trains,it goes against their realm of transportation.

I guess one could add space by coming out of the back,straddling the tracks so they would be covered with more levels above.

Picture a multi leval box set inbetween the existing end towers.

[Jason]

Ultimately there would have to be a justification for spending tens of millions of dollars [[to build a parking lot and platform) or many more millions [[to renovate the public portions of the lobby) plus operating and maintenance costs, in order to have slower service to a less convenient location.

[Richard]

It would have to be a destination in itself of sorts,as it stands it is a bit iffy but if you add multi stories out the back then you add hotel,retail and residential and rail service.

You could live there and in the morning jump on the street car to work downtown,do your grocery shopping,have a cup of coffee,and on the weekend jump on the train and go up north or over to Chicago for the weekend.

Or come from Chicago and stay at the hotel and jump on the street car and visit downtown.

If the hotel brand kicks in $ ,if the retail,Target,kicks in some $ ,all the branded shops,coffee etc. all kick in or with what they call build to suit then it could be plausible.

Breaking it down into cubes of sorts it does not seem so overwhelming but looking at it as one big picture and with a single investor it becomes risky as it is.

It already has an international draw imagine the millions in free publicity if someone signed on.

[Don K]

While all discussion of prospective developments is fun, interesting and sometimes productive, everyone should be aware that there is absolutely no prospect of MCS being used as a heavy gauge rail station again in any form whatsoever. Regardless of whoever owns or renovates the station. It is prohibitively expensive, it does not make locational sense in terms of commuting needs and habits, and routing and infrastructure issues would make doing it a nightmare, potentially impossible. That would all be true even if Amazon wanted to put its global HQ there and would pick up the whole0 tab. The very many stakeholders [[Amtrak, MDOT, City of Detroit, track owners, etc) would be very difficult to corral into a cohesive organized plan. And doing it presupposes that the station would be offering a new rail service that would appeal to lots of potential consumers not currently using mass transit. That is false.

What a development at the Depot COULD do for transit includes: help further the need for light rail and BRT lines and stops along Michigan Ave; warrant more and better DDOT local bus service in the area. Additionally, this could spur improvements to the Michigan Ave streetscape, including new landscaped medians, new signage, bike lanes, etc.

I find I don't often agree with Mikey's opinions, but in this case I think he's right on target. These grand old stations are a huge expense for maintenance, heating, and cooling, and it takes a large volume of traffic to justify keeping them open. As I think I said upthread, the only ones to survive as train stations [[Boston South, Grand Central, Philly 30th Street, Chicago Union, LA Union) have full commuter schedules on multiple lines as well as large Amtrak schedules [[excepting Grand Central). I suspect Washington Union is kept afloat through a large appropriation from the federal government. MCS would never have this. In addition, use of MCS by Amtrak would cut off the suburban spur that generates most of the traffic to Chicago.

In my opinion, the best alternative use for the station building would be as retail for the employees in the office building and a destination restaurant [[maybe Michigan-themed, maybe railroad-themed ala the Gandy Dancer) Old stations [[I believe St Louis Union is an example) have been turned into hotels, and if there were enough visitors to the Ford campus a hotel could be viable here [[although the fate of the Hyatt and Ritz-Carlton in Dearborn are cautionary in this regard).

Now this is where light-rail connectivity to MCS would make the whole thing really sing. A line from downtown to MCS, continuing on the Michigan Central right-of-way to Merriman, where a spur would take the line into the terminal complex at DTW, would be perfect.

Now, in my opinion [[and I don't have a dog in this hunt because I'm retired), the best possibility for establishing commuter rail into Detroit would be to re-open the old Grand Trunk Western route from Pontiac, terminating at the New Center station [[connectivity to QLine). Ann Arbor, in my opinion, is a long shot, because, other than the trains Amtrak ran a while back, that corridor doesn't have much of a tradition of rail commuting into Detroit. I believe New York Central ran a local from Jackson to MCS into the 60s that mostly was used by railroad employees to commute in to their jobs, and not by office workers downtown.

[MicrosoftFan]

There is a possible, albeit unlikely, route to downtown. Should the AA-Detroit service become popular and electrified in say 20 years, two potential routes to downtown exist. One is to have the service switch onto the NS Boat Line near the rouge plant, run onto an elevated ramp parallel to Jefferson, and then terminate either on Joe Louis via a tunnel under Jefferson or just short in West Riverfront Park. Another involves a new viaduct just north of Lafayette Street [[parallel), though this would require the demolition of a City Parking Bureau building. The line would cross the lodge and then turn onto Howard St over parking lots, terminating just short or under the large federal building near the Rosa Parks transit center. Any tunneling would likely bring the project to near $1 billion. A viaduct alone would probably be above $500 million but a bit below $1 billion.

[MicrosoftFan]

P

While all discussion of prospective developments is fun, interesting and sometimes productive, everyone should be aware that there is absolutely no prospect of MCS being used as a heavy gauge rail station again in any form whatsoever. Regardless of whoever owns or renovates the station. It is prohibitively expensive, it does not make locational sense in terms of commuting needs and habits, and routing and infrastructure issues would make doing it a nightmare, potentially impossible. That would all be true even if Amazon wanted to put its global HQ there and would pick up the whole tab. The very many stakeholders [[Amtrak, MDOT, City of Detroit, track owners, etc) would be very difficult to corral into a cohesive organized plan. And doing it presupposes that the station would be offering a new rail service that would appeal to lots of potential consumers not currently using mass transit. That is false.

What a development at the Depot COULD do for transit includes: help further the need for light rail and BRT lines and stops along Michigan Ave; warrant more and better DDOT local bus service in the area. Additionally, this could spur improvements to the Michigan Ave streetscape, including new landscaped medians, new signage, bike lanes, etc.

What people fail to realize about MCS serving Amtrak trains is that the station does not, can not, and will not be 100% train. The stations that Don mentions later on in the article are not the only ones to survive. A more accurate analogy would be Cincinnati, where the Union Station lies outside of downtown and has Amtrak trains arrive just 3 times a week, compared to 3 times a Day here. The station has survived there by converting the remainder to a museum and office space.

I think this could serve as a model for how Detroit could bring rail to MCS. Not to mention that it would really only take 1 platform renovation, a waiting room, and negotiations with CP [[or CP, can’t remember off the top of my head) to use 1 track 3 times a day for a 0.5 Mile run to MCS. The trains heading to the tunnel already bypass the innermost platforms anyway.

[ABetterDetroit]

There is zero chance that Ford's interest at MCS will return passenger rail service in and out of the vacant train station and return it to any semblance of its past glory. Rail is not their business and their interest in this property despite its history does not in any way mean they are getting into it. The reality couldn't be farther from that hope.

Ford wants a Corktown/Downtown presence for its core business and the MCS offers that with cachet if the building shined with the FORD logo on top.

It appears Ford is aware that a 'glass house' surrounded with parking lots by a freeway away from the urban fabric is not the end all be all, which is fantastic but that fact in no way means they are going to be a new player in passenger rail.

Ford will not be a new major funding source for Amtrak. Expecting them to take that role is not remotely realistic no matter how badly anyone wants them to do it. To halt or hinder this potential renovation because of that dream would be a real shame because, frankly it is just not going to happen.

[Tig3rzhark]

Regardless of who gets that train station in the end, there's still a train tunnel to Canada that could be used for passenger travel.

VIA Canada provides rail services from Windsor to Toronto. It would really benefit Detroit well if VIA Canada could provide this service without having to catch the Tunnel Bus across and catching the train from there.

Also, it would be in Matty's interest to sell the MCS because he is losing respect as a businessman not taking care of it.

I've traveled passed that train tunnel to Canada and I've yet to see it used at all.

[Honky Tonk]

Regardless of who gets that train station in the end, there's still a train tunnel to Canada that could be used for passenger travel.

VIA Canada provides rail services from Windsor to Toronto. It would really benefit Detroit well if VIA Canada could provide this service without having to catch the Tunnel Bus across and catching the train from there.

Also, it would be in Matty's interest to sell the MCS because he is losing respect as a businessman not taking care of it.

I've traveled passed that train tunnel to Canada and I've yet to see it used at all.

LOL! You really think Matty gives a rat's a$$ about whether or not he's respected? He not only commandeered a City Park, he closed it off and polluted it. Better yet, he got the hunk of city land he wanted on a promise he'd restore the park, which to my knowledge, still hasn't been done. He bought homes in Windsor, one by one blighted them, causing neighbors to move out, then buying and blighting more. He did the same thing in Detroit. Why would he sell the train station when leasing it is guaranteed income? If he does sell it, which I doubt, it'll be for some outrageous amount of money, or somehow a trade for something he wants to complete his bridge. He'll stop @ nothing to get what he wants, and he sure as heck won't give it away cheaply.

[casscorridor]

Everyone is missing the point about rail service. The station building doesn't need to be used for a station. It's old and outdated and now better suited for other uses. A new station could be built on top of the existing tracks, with a connection to the existing building which would consist of a retail/entertainment base with offices on top.

The reason why a station makes sense here, sometime in the future, is that the tracks lead to a tunnel to Canada. If there was ever a major wave of investment in highspeed rail, connecting Canada's largest population centers to the midwestern United States only makes sense.

As for commuter services, there really isn't an optimal place for a single central station in Detroit but I will concede that New Center is probably better positioned.

[MicrosoftFan]

Everyone is missing the point about rail service. The station building doesn't need to be used for a station. It's old and outdated and now better suited for other uses. A new station could be built on top of the existing tracks, with a connection to the existing building which would consist of a retail/entertainment base with offices on top.

The reason why a station makes sense here, sometime in the future, is that the tracks lead to a tunnel to Canada. If there was ever a major wave of investment in highspeed rail, connecting Canada's largest population centers to the midwestern United States only makes sense.

As for commuter services, there really isn't an optimal place for a single central station in Detroit but I will concede that New Center is probably better positioned.

I would agree that a small station building would work best on top of the old tracks. Similar to chicago, the old building is rarely used, just as a waiting room, whereas the tracks, food court, offices etc are in an underground concourse. It would make the MCS more appealing to have train access.

And yes, nobody is saying that the building should be used solely for rail service.

[Richard]

Regardless of who gets that train station in the end, there's still a train tunnel to Canada that could be used for passenger travel.

VIA Canada provides rail services from Windsor to Toronto. It would really benefit Detroit well if VIA Canada could provide this service without having to catch the Tunnel Bus across and catching the train from there.

Also, it would be in Matty's interest to sell the MCS because he is losing respect as a businessman not taking care of it.

I've traveled passed that train tunnel to Canada and I've yet to see it used at all.

What is the difference when you look at MTS and Fisher body verses Packard,Kelvinator and many others,at the very minimum those two are still as original structures and not completely trashed.

If it had remained open to the elements,not meaning the weather,would the conversation be about demolition costs and the sadness of losing another part of the cities history?

[Honky Tonk]

Everyone is missing the point about rail service. The station building doesn't need to be used for a station. It's old and outdated and now better suited for other uses. A new station could be built on top of the existing tracks, with a connection to the existing building which would consist of a retail/entertainment base with offices on top.

The reason why a station makes sense here, sometime in the future, is that the tracks lead to a tunnel to Canada. If there was ever a major wave of investment in highspeed rail, connecting Canada's largest population centers to the midwestern United States only makes sense.

As for commuter services, there really isn't an optimal place for a single central station in Detroit but I will concede that New Center is probably better positioned.

The whole building never WAS a rail station. Only the ground level section. The top floors were all offices for Con-Rail, and I forget who else before that. Sometime, in the mid 70's, Con-Rail relocated to Philadelphia, [[I think, can't remember). Used to visit an acquaintance @ MCS, and occasionally go to lunch. There's no need for a separate station. You could still run a rail service from one part of MCS. You certainly don't need the whole building to do it, though. Do rail, Uber, Taxi's and retail from the ground floor. Ford could have their Monotonous vehicle development and other "Mobility" developments on the upper floors.

[WALD0123]

Agree with several posters here in that a very small portion of MCS would ever be used for a train station, probably ever again. In this scenario, Ford uses the bulk of the building for its offices and whatever else it has envisioned there. A portion of the ground floor a likely a new building in the rear would be used for a train transport.

Amtrak service up to the suburbs would be possible by reversing direction and picking the line back up, adds a few minutes but not a huge deal. Again, a commuter line to MCS or New Center is still not particularly viable for most folks, would be better off using a bus [[perhaps Ford's upcoming Chariot service) directly downtown.

Lastly, I disagree that Ford would have no interest in some semblance of train service there. The potential commuter line would directly connect to their HQ in Dearborn as well as their holdings in West Dearborn. They're a "mobility" company these days and this connection is awfully direct.