Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

**swingline** · May-03-18, 11:44 AM

Amazon's claim that transit is a vitally important element to a winning HQ2 bid presumably means that Nashville is now out of the running despite making the first cut. A couple of days ago, Nashville area voters soundly defeated a comprehensive $5.4 billion transit plan that included light rail and BRT. https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...sit/564991002/ Nashville's current bus-only system makes Detroit's system look first rate. Recent job growth in Music City, especially in the downtown area, has generated Atlanta-like traffic problems. If Amazon HQ2 now does go to Nashville, it will raise a lot of questions about the evaluation process. [[Not that lots of questions haven't been raised already,)

**iheartthed** · May-03-18, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by swingline

Amazon's claim that transit is a vitally important element to a winning HQ2 bid presumably means that Nashville is now out of the running despite making the first cut. A couple of days ago, Nashville area voters soundly defeated a comprehensive $5.4 billion transit plan that included light rail and BRT. https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...sit/564991002/ Nashville's current bus-only system makes Detroit's system look first rate. Recent job growth in Music City, especially in the downtown area, has generated Atlanta-like traffic problems. If Amazon HQ2 now does go to Nashville, it will raise a lot of questions about the evaluation process. [[Not that lots of questions haven't been raised already,)

They were never in the running, anyway. Nashville is too small. Another mid-size city that I no longer think is in the running is Austin. A lot of the lists placed high odds on Austin but the tech companies already operating outposts there are having a tough time getting the talent to fill the positions. Nashville would have an even tougher time, since the tech talent base isn't as developed.

**O3H** · May-03-18, 01:47 PM

This doesn't bother anyone ?????

MEDC said it must withhold the amount of public subsidies
offered Amazon in the Detroit bid because of a non-disclosure agreement
the state signed with businessman Dan Gilbert's Bedrock real estate arm

Re-iterate : The STATE had a NDA with a real estate company

**Richard** · May-03-18, 05:39 PM

^ Cleveland went through the same thing.

http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/inde...w_good_or.html

"I find [NOACA] has failed to show that any information in the HQ2 document constitutes trade secret," Clark wrote in an 18-page decision.

**Bham1982** · May-03-18, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by swingline

Amazon's claim that transit is a vitally important element to a winning HQ2 bid presumably means that Nashville is now out of the running

Given that Amazon is HQ in Seattle, a city that didn't have any rail until a few years ago [[and even now has a very rudimentary system) I think the idea that they value transit is pretty far-fetched.

**emu steve** · May-04-18, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Given that Amazon is HQ in Seattle, a city that didn't have any rail until a few years ago [[and even now has a very rudimentary system) I think the idea that they value transit is pretty far-fetched.

I'm not sure I follow [[or agree) with your logic.

Are you saying that the requirements today are the same as they were when Amazon was founded over two decades ago?

Or to flip the question: If Amazon would be a new startup today would they still pick Seattle?

[[my) Answer: I doubt it.

Things change over time. Amazon today has no resemblance to the startup of decades ago.

**Bham1982** · May-04-18, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I'm not sure I follow [[or agree) with your logic.

No, I'm saying if they're based in a city with basically no rail, why would we take them seriously if they say rail is a factor?

If rail is a Big Deal to them, NYC would be the only [[U.S.) option. Every other U.S. metro has overwhelming non-rail modal share.

**emu steve** · May-04-18, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

No, I'm saying if they're based in a city with basically no rail, why would we take them seriously if they say rail is a factor?

If rail is a Big Deal to them, NYC would be the only [[U.S.) option. Every other U.S. metro has overwhelming non-rail modal share.

I would think that many of the REPORTED finalists [[I know educated guesses, or uneducated guesses, if you will) have very strong rail.

Many look at cities like BOS, D.C. [[3 sites), NYC, ATL, etc. and all have strong rail systems.

I do NOT know if lack of a good rail system is a 'deal breaker', but the most of the "finalists" have good rail systems.

Austin is the kicker. It isn't an Eastern city will a long history of rail. [[here is a 3-year old article on subway 'plans': https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...stem/21741189/

P.S. I do not consider Nashville a finalist. If they are selected, I'll eat crow.

**aj3647** · May-04-18, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Given that Amazon is HQ in Seattle, a city that didn't have any rail until a few years ago [[and even now has a very rudimentary system) I think the idea that they value transit is pretty far-fetched.

And yet even their lackluster public transit is still better than what Detroit has. At least Seattle has a light rail system that connects their airport to Downtown Seattle [[with numerous stops along the way). We don't even have that.

Originally Posted by Bham1982

No, I'm saying if they're based in a city with basically no rail, why would we take them seriously if they say rail is a factor?

I think you missed emu steve's point completely. Amazon was incorporated in Seattle in 1994. At the time, they had less than 150 employees. I doubt public mass transit was important to Jeff Bezos at the time when he chose Seattle. Obviously, their priorities changed as they got 5000X bigger over the years. Their Seattle location is a legacy from their early days as a tiny tech startup.

**bust** · May-04-18, 02:11 PM

It's not even true Seattle's transit system is lackluster. They're served by streetcars, light rail, commuter rail, and Amtrak. They're investing heavily in their light rail system [[by American standards). And besides, most of all, Seattle has an excellent bus system. I strongly prefer rail transit to buses, but it's disingenuous to limit a transit discussion to rail.

According to Citylab, the center of Amazon's campus rated an outstanding walk score of 98 and a transit score of 90. And that was 6 years ago. Transit in Seattle has only improved since then.

How Amazon Got the Urban Campus Right
https://www.citylab.com/life/2012/03...us-right/1485/

**emu steve** · May-04-18, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

And yet even their lackluster public transit is still better than what Detroit has. At least Seattle has a light rail system that connects their airport to Downtown Seattle [[with numerous stops along the way). We don't even have that.

I think you missed emu steve's point completely. Amazon was incorporated in Seattle in 1994. At the time, they had less than 150 employees. I doubt public mass transit was important to Jeff Bezos at the time when he chose Seattle. Obviously, their priorities changed as they got 5000X bigger over the years. Their Seattle location is a legacy from their early days as a tiny tech startup.

Thank you!!!

When we talk about Seattle, Detroit, etc. etc. we really need to do our homework and have a longitudinal perspective.

Who would have known or guessed what Amazon would become [[if we had guessed we could have bought stock. Saw something that 1K invested in 1998 [[?) would be worth 19.5K today, assuming dividends reinvested) what it is today.

Too often we don't view things be it Amazon, Detroit, etc. as they evolve say over time periods [[e.g., decades).

And when we discuss things like subway systems we are talking about systems which may take decades to formulate, approve, get funding, get built, etc. [[There are extensions to the D.C. subway line which were in the works for over 20 years).

To pivot back to HQ2, maybe Austin does get a 21st century mass transit system, but to get approval, funding and build an UNDERGROUND system well, I'd guess a lot [[most?) of 65 year old baby boomers in Austin may not live long enough to see it finished.

The Silver Line [[NoVa) was formally proposed in 2000. The first leg was finished in 2014. The 2nd part isn't expected to be completed until 2020, or later. That is a total of 11 station from a Falls Church, Va. station to beyond Dulles airport. Eleven stations = 20 years [[and counting).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver...hington_Metro)

**Bham1982** · May-04-18, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Thank you!!!

When we talk about Seattle, Detroit, etc. etc. we really need to do our homework and have a longitudinal perspective.

Seattle has one rail line, and it's only light rail, for a metro over 4 million people. That's pathetic by international standards, almost unfathomable outside the U.S. context.

Again, if they cared about rail transit, they wouldn't be in Seattle, a city probably in the lowest 2 or 3 percentiles for cities its size terms of rail transit coverage.

And why would Amazon care about long-term plans? In 30 years Amazon might not even exist. If they really wanted a HQ2 [[they don't), they would need the transit from the onset.

**emu steve** · May-04-18, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Seattle has one rail line, and it's only light rail, for a metro over 4 million people. That's pathetic by international standards, almost unfathomable outside the U.S. context.

Again, if they cared about rail transit, they wouldn't be in Seattle, a city probably in the lowest 2 or 3 percentiles for cities its size terms of rail transit coverage.

And why would Amazon care about long-term plans? In 30 years Amazon might not even exist. If they really wanted a HQ2 [[they don't), they would need the transit from the onset.

Fair enough, but building a heavy rail system takes decades and Amazon hasn't been really big that long.

I refer you back to my post about the D.C. area subway system which took [[taking, present tense) 20 years to add 11 stations, none underground.

I doubt Seattle could keep up mass transit wise with the explosive growth of Amazon.

If I were advising Amazon, I'd STRONGLY suggest a city with BUILT subway system. It is too hard to build one from scratch within a timely fashion.

**O3H** · May-04-18, 05:48 PM

Should your STATE use the taxes, undisclosed to a FOIA, for real estate ?

https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...760#post547760

**swingline** · May-04-18, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

No, I'm saying if they're based in a city with basically no rail, why would we take them seriously if they say rail is a factor?

If rail is a Big Deal to them, NYC would be the only [[U.S.) option. Every other U.S. metro has overwhelming non-rail modal share.

Amazon hasn't said that it needs rail. It said that it needs viable, efficient mass transit. Transit is more than just rail.

That said, Seattle has 23 miles of light rail with 18 more under construction. 19 additional miles will be built by 2024. That might pale in global terms but it is massive by US standards.

45% of Central Business District workers in Seattle use some form of mass transit. That's a huge number for a US city. Seattle's bus system is world class and doesn't suffer just because light rail is also being built.

HQ2 may indeed go to a city without robust transit, but that would be a change from Amazon's experience with HQ1.

**emu steve** · May-16-18, 02:50 PM

This post is really getting O/T to Detroit:

Apple is looking for a major site an East Coast site. The way the article is written Apple seems to be looking at No. Virginia.

Doesn't appear to be a beauty contest with bidders offering tons of incentives.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.e39547c667f1

One could speculate that NoVa might get Apple and Amazon may go elsewhere like BOS, ATL, etc.

**O3H** · May-17-18, 07:51 AM

Can we beat a dead rotten horse corpse into microscopic pieces ....

Detroit lost, move on

**emu steve** · May-17-18, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by O3H

Can we beat a dead rotten horse corpse into microscopic pieces ....

Detroit lost, move on

This thread seems to have evolved into a thread of a bunch of stuff like transit, major development, government's role in landing major employers, etc. etc.

This forum doesn't have topic like one might see in an academic class:

"The role of mass transit in commercial and residential development".

"The role of government incentives in attempts to get businesses to relocate."