Canadian Permit for Ambassador Bridge Twinning Approved

**yupislyr** · September-06-17, 02:34 PM

Trudeau et al. have approved twinning the Ambassador Bridge.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...span-1.4277609

Not to say that there aren't still hurdles left before it gets built, but this is one less large one. Anyone from Windsor remember this Moroun version of the Herb Gray Parkway?

I dug out of the old Schwartz Report. It still may end up happening.

**Meddle** · September-06-17, 03:36 PM

Will one RichBuffoon get another RichBuffoon to quash the deal?

Who knows ....

**401don** · September-06-17, 04:02 PM

I realize there are lots of additional costs with the Gordie Howe - purchasing land, environmental assessments, new plazas, etc. - but 4.8 billion vs. 1 billion?

**drjeff** · September-06-17, 04:10 PM

The newly completed Tappan Zee bridge replacement in NY cost $4 billion and I think that is actually two separate spans, one in each direction.

**Zads07** · September-06-17, 04:59 PM

Very sad to see the Ambassador be replaced if this goes through.

**Meddle** · September-06-17, 05:37 PM

A Canadian document says the company must complete construction of the new span within five years and then "demolish" the existing bridge no more than five years after that. It must also demolish dozens of boarded-up homes it owns in the shadow of the existing bridge, purchase the ones it doesn't, and then develop and maintain the area as public parkland.

Where did this come from?

**Meddle** · September-06-17, 05:41 PM

The only plan I've ever heard about was Delray.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · September-06-17, 09:28 PM

This is interesting, and good news. Having a second new span is good for all sorts of reasons. First and foremost, it will provide an alternate span for when there are issues [[usually accidents) blocking the other bridge. Also, it will be the more logical bridge to use when travelling to either downtown Detroit or Windsor. The Gordie Howe will really be for through traffic more than local traffic [[it will serve to connect US and Canadian expressway systems). And for the traffic on the new Ambassador, it will have better service for emergency vehicle access, adequate shoulders, etc. Having two new bridges will solidify the Detroit-Windsor border as the #1 commercial shipping point between the 2 countries for years to come.

And Zads, well, I am fond of the Ambassador, too. But, really, it is more than antiquated. It is positively congested and borderline unsafe. And it is at the end of its projected lifespan. I hope a new Ambassador is a nice addition to the view from downtown, but regardless it will be a better bridge.

As for the Tappan Zee bridge cost, that might seem low considering its size but 3 things should be remembered about it: there was no need to acquire new land; there was only a minor need for freeway access construction; and the bridge is long, but only a small section [[relative to its length) is substantially elevated. Part of it is more on par with a causeway that then rises up over the water in the center.

**mikeg19** · September-07-17, 05:49 AM

I'd like to understand how they have spend $500M of the projected $1B budget already. They have acquired property, yes. Are they counting upgraded Customs plazas too? I would imagine all of the engineering, design, and construction work will be much more than $500M, not to mention the stipulation that they have to demolish the current bridge.

Either way, I think this is good. GH bridge is happening at this point and they aren't turning back. Another new bridge is going to create a lot of construction jobs for the area. Plus as others have said, the Ambassador is at the end of its useful lifespan. Yes, there are older bridges [[Brooklyn) but unfortunately the Ambassador was not maintained as well by Matty and Co. To me, this is a win: new GH bridge, new Ambassador bridge, Riverside park makeover and extension.

**Atticus** · September-07-17, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

I'd like to understand how they have spend $500M of the projected $1B budget already. They have acquired property, yes. Are they counting upgraded Customs plazas too? I would imagine all of the engineering, design, and construction work will be much more than $500M, not to mention the stipulation that they have to demolish the current bridge.

Either way, I think this is good. GH bridge is happening at this point and they aren't turning back. Another new bridge is going to create a lot of construction jobs for the area. Plus as others have said, the Ambassador is at the end of its useful lifespan. Yes, there are older bridges [[Brooklyn) but unfortunately the Ambassador was not maintained as well by Matty and Co. To me, this is a win: new GH bridge, new Ambassador bridge, Riverside park makeover and extension.

The best possible scenario is to have two new crossings. So Matty and crew getting their new bridge is fine... just as long as it doesn't stop the Gordie from also being built.

To me the biggest thing I would like to see at this point is that a permanent and dedicated pedestrian and bicycle "path" also get included with the new Ambassador bridge. If they charge a toll to use it, that is fine too. But given the closer proximity to downtown, and the growing number of pedestrians and bikes, it would be a real shame if you couldn't walk or bike to Canada and back across the new bridge.

**401don** · September-07-17, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by Atticus

The best possible scenario is to have two new crossings. So Matty and crew getting their new bridge is fine... just as long as it doesn't stop the Gordie from also being built.

To me the biggest thing I would like to see at this point is that a permanent and dedicated pedestrian and bicycle "path" also get included with the new Ambassador bridge. If they charge a toll to use it, that is fine too. But given the closer proximity to downtown, and the growing number of pedestrians and bikes, it would be a real shame if you couldn't walk or bike to Canada and back across the new bridge.

I walked across the bridge back in the 70's. I can't really see the need though. The Tunnel bus connects the downtowns although bikes aren't allowed unless they're disassembled and carried on. Not sure why Matty would spend the money as it wouldn't be profitable. Gov't would have to mandate it and then spend more money for pedestrian customs.

**Wesley Mouch** · September-07-17, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Atticus

... But given the closer proximity to downtown, and the growing number of pedestrians and bikes, it would be a real shame if you couldn't walk or bike to Canada and back across the new bridge.

Don't get your hopes up. Pedestrian walkways on bridges now are much more expensive, as they require suicide watch teams and 40' impenetrable barries to prevent leapers. Pretty much every bridge across the country now has some type of intense barrier in place, or even nets to catch people.

Golden Gate bridge $200 MILLION net

**mkd** · September-07-17, 04:01 PM

More crossings to Windsor is a great thing, but why tear down the existing Ambassador Bridge? Keep it as a pedestrian/bicycle-only crossing or something.

**Atticus** · September-07-17, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by mkd

More crossings to Windsor is a great thing, but why tear down the existing Ambassador Bridge? Keep it as a pedestrian/bicycle-only crossing or something.

The old bridge would not be financially viable to maintain if there were no cars going over it. Maintenance wise, it already is in rough shape. And as much as I would like to see the old bridge keep for pedestrians and bikes, the dollars have to work out. Making decisions based on likes and not fiscally sound reasons is part of the reason the city went bankrupt in the first place.

**Sandhouse** · September-08-17, 02:46 PM

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, and if the Centra firms actually start their new bridge.

Without bothering to do any research [[like looking up traffic volumes and cost estimates, or learning what additional approvals are needed), my guess is that the Morouns can make enough to build and operate their new bridge. Tolls will probably undercut the Howe Bridge slightly, keeping a fair amount of auto traffic to Windsor on the old route. That might be enough.

Virtually every truck will use the Howe Bridge regardless of toll levels, because of the Windsor bypass freeway. You won't be able to pay a trucker enough to jam his truck up Huron Church Road if he doesn't have to. The exception will be Moroun's own trucks, although the Canadians may be pricks and somehow prohibit or penalize through truck traffic on the old route. In addition to paying tolls to himself, Moroun also sells [[untaxed) fuel to himself, so it pays him to keep the duty-free truck stop operating along with the bridge. These savings aren't enough to pay for the bridge, but they're a factor for the bridge/truck-line combine.

Moroun could discount the fuel he sells more than at present. That will cut into his current $0.65/gallon excess profit, but cheap fuel may help the old bridge compete for traffic. So far as I know, the Howe Bridge will not have a tax-free truck stop, as the state and provincial governments will not short themselves their own tax revenue. [[They could, however, use the 24.4-cent/gallon U.S.federal tax as a competitive edge or excess profit.)

I don't expect to see the parallel bridge start rising next year, but it could happen sometime.

**Zacha341** · September-10-17, 09:22 AM

Yeah she was built in 1930 and well past her prime. Imagine bridges like that built pre-computers and politics [[well some politics)!

Originally Posted by Atticus

The old bridge would not be financially viable to maintain if there were no cars going over it. Maintenance wise, it already is in rough shape. And as much as I would like to see the old bridge keep for pedestrians and bikes, the dollars have to work out. Making decisions based on likes and not fiscally sound reasons is part of the reason the city went bankrupt in the first place.

DetroitNightLights · October-09-17, 01:41 AM

Gordie Howe Bridge project moving ahead even as new Moroun bridge faces obstacles

"By 2023 or so, we ought to see at least one new bridge and perhaps two spanning the Detroit River — the Gordie Howe International Bridge and the new Ambassador — opening a spirited competition for traffic and tolls."

**Jerry Van** · October-17-17, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

And Zads, well, I am fond of the Ambassador, too. But, really, it is more than antiquated. It is positively congested and borderline unsafe. And it is at the end of its projected lifespan. I hope a new Ambassador is a nice addition to the view from downtown, but regardless it will be a better bridge.

Thanks for your thumbnail, off the cuff, engineering report, bridge engineer extraordinaire!