So, is anyone ever going to do anything about Hart Plaza?

[EastsideAl]

Just spent the long weekend at the Detroit Jazz Festival. The music was, of course, magnificent as always [[at least until the rains came on Monday and screwed everything up). And the volunteers who give up their weekend for the event were amazing. The crowds were as big as I've ever seen.

But every year the main venue where the festival takes place gets more and more decrepit. Almost all of the stones on the plaza itself are cracked and coming apart, loose or chipped stones and unsteady footing are everywhere and accidents seem inevitable, at least one of the stairways appears to be on the verge of collapse, water is leaking from pipes all over the place and rainwater isn't draining properly so some walkways had to be closed because of standing water, parts of the main amphitheater were awash in suspiciously smelly water seeping out from between the stones all weekend, and I don't even want to talk about the appalling state of the restrooms.

The decay of Hart Plaza has been apparent for many years. But the plaza's state is now verging on the unusable. Several years ago, when things were a lot more desperate around here, it was understandable that the situation went unaddressed. But now, with development popping out all over, lavish sums of public money being thrown at facilities for privately-owned sports teams, and huge improvements having been made to other public areas like Campus Martius and the Riverwalk, leaving one of the city's major public event areas in such a state seems both shameful and irresponsible. Bringing out-of-town and international visitors there for this event, as I do every year, has become increasingly embarrassing.

Yet neither the city itself, who is ultimately responsible for the plaza, nor any of the usual suspects among our city's regular benefactors, seem to be stepping up to the plate at all. And thus the decay continues unabated. There has been some vague talk in the recent past of significantly reconfiguring the plaza, or of scraping it and starting over with a different concept. However, it sure seems like the urgent need now is not pie-in-the-sky conceptualizing, but just to address and stabilize the current situation and assure that the plaza is reasonably clean, safe, and usable for upcoming events.

[401don]

Hard to disagree with anything you said. I'm not sure what the short term answer is. Is the site used for anything other than Movement and the Jazz festival anymore? Perhaps they should fill in the amphitheater, level the ground and replace the paving stones with grass except for a couple of paths to the river. You could put a stage at each end for events.

[hybridy]

yes, master planning efforts have been ongoing. I thought the public would've seen something over the summer. once joe louis meets the wrecking ball, everything should come to light

[daddeeo]

Unless you're a political contributor, nothing gets attention. If it was a stadium or arena, no problem.

[EGrant]

yes, master planning efforts have been ongoing. I thought the public would've seen something over the summer. once joe louis meets the wrecking ball, everything should come to light

Any details you can share?

[EastsideAl]

Here is a list of the events that were scheduled there this summer:

May 13 Red Bull Hart Lines Skateboarding Competition
May 27-29, Movement Electronic Music Festival
June 2 - 4, Albanian American Festival
June 10 -11, Motor City Pride
June 17, Purple Stride Detroit [[moved to Chene Park due to conditions at Hart Plaza)
June 26, Ford Fireworks
July 6-9 Detroit Motorcycle City [[postponed to 2018)
July 11-12, Hart Grub and Groove
July 14-16 Paradise Valley Music Festival
July 18-19, Hart Grub and Groove
July 25-26, Hart Grub and Groove
July 29 -30, Arab and Chaldean Festival
August 11 -13, Ribs & R&B Music Fest
September 2 - 4, Detroit Jazz Festival
September 7 - 10, Marine Week
September 23, Metro Detroit Out of the Darkness Walk
October 21, Making Strides Against Breast Cancer Walk

Plus some dance party events for downtown workers, etc. that are listed on the Plaza's marquee.

[Shai_Hulud]

Yes, Hart Plaza has been decrepit for a while and the increased traffic makes it look that much worse and hastens it's demise.

Admittedly, it needs immediate attention but, to me, it seems like a waste to patch it when it needs an overhaul and there is going both new development and new public space coming soon.

[Atticus]

Yes, Hart Plaza has been decrepit for a while and the increased traffic makes it look that much worse and hastens it's demise.

Admittedly, it needs immediate attention but, to me, it seems like a waste to patch it when it needs an overhaul and there is going both new development and new public space coming soon.

I have always believed the best use of Hart Plaza is as a festival site.

It doesn't work as a park, because the location south of downtown prevents much [[if any) pass-through pedestrian traffic. Thus it gets the stadium-on-non-event-days feel.

Not a popular opinion on here [[as most posters don't need to consider the financial bottom line in their posts), but they should put up an aesthetically pleasing barrier around the plaza, and charge admission to those who enter for festivals. The revenue collected could help pay the neglected maintenance costs, and that way it would not be a financial drag on the city.

[1953]

Why not narrow it a bit and return some of the land to development? We lost a lot of city when they laid out that park.

[Shai_Hulud]

I have always believed the best use of Hart Plaza is as a festival site.

It doesn't work as a park, because the location south of downtown prevents much [[if any) pass-through pedestrian traffic. Thus it gets the stadium-on-non-event-days feel.

It is certainly that way now, however that's at least partially due to design. First, there are the 8 lanes of Jefferson to deal with, then you have a park that is mostly concrete baking in the sun, and little worth walking to on either side.

Development of the West Riverfront and redevelopment of the Joe will help with pass through and destinations. If anything ever comes to fruition east of the Rencen or on the Ford Auditorium site, so much the better.

The festivals are important, and better in Hart Plaza than pushed further out, so they need to be a major consideration in a redesign. But if the city, or at least downtown, continues to re-densify, some green decompression space will be increasingly appreciated.

[Scottathew]

It looks really bad and jaded. There is way too much pavement, and not enough green. But I suppose being a festival site, that is kind of demanded. Perhaps they can find some way to break up the sight lines with green and still preserve a lot of space and still be good for festivals.

I've never been to a festival there, but I could imagine if they planted trees that people would climb them so much they wouldn't do very well.

[Atticus]

It is certainly that way now, however that's at least partially due to design. First, there are the 8 lanes of Jefferson to deal with, then you have a park that is mostly concrete baking in the sun, and little worth walking to on either side.

Development of the West Riverfront and redevelopment of the Joe will help with pass through and destinations. If anything ever comes to fruition east of the Rencen or on the Ford Auditorium site, so much the better.

The festivals are important, and better in Hart Plaza than pushed further out, so they need to be a major consideration in a redesign. But if the city, or at least downtown, continues to re-densify, some green decompression space will be increasingly appreciated.

The thing is though, even if Jefferson wasn't a pain to get across for pedestrians, why would people do it? Where are they going to, and where are they coming from?

Jane Jacobs does a much better job than I ever could describing why some parks work, and others don't. But the point is, even if money was no object and Hart Plaza was converted into a perfectly manicured oasis of green space, about the only people who would use it [[at first) are the few who want to get away from everyone else in isolation. The problem with that, as Jacobs describes, is that sets up a situation ripe for crime, and the lack of passer-throughs makes people feel unsafe.

As far as the potential developments on the East Riverfront and the Joe Louis arena site, that would be great, but all those pedestrian trips would be along the river walk, and not up into the plaza.

It is important to note there is no residential surrounding Hart Plaza today, which makes it worse as a public park... but great as a festival site because there are no residents to disturb. Just make the area above the stairs the festival site, keep the river walk path open and free, and call it a day. We can dream of a green space park, but functionally and financially, the festival site is the best use of the site.

[DeLemur]

I agree. I love Hart Plaza, broken concrete and all. The spherical theme, the pyramid stage, the loop from underground stage to amphitheater all make it a unique place and perfect for festivals. The labor circle looks great against the rectangular buildings. It does need some upkeep though and maybe some added bowl seating above the amphitheater bowl. Many festivals are pushing past capacity there.

[401don]

Here is a list of the events that were scheduled there this summer:

May 13 Red Bull Hart Lines Skateboarding Competition
May 27-29, Movement Electronic Music Festival
June 2 - 4, Albanian American Festival
June 10 -11, Motor City Pride
June 17, Purple Stride Detroit [[moved to Chene Park due to conditions at Hart Plaza)
June 26, Ford Fireworks
July 6-9 Detroit Motorcycle City [[postponed to 2018)
July 11-12, Hart Grub and Groove
July 14-16 Paradise Valley Music Festival
July 18-19, Hart Grub and Groove
July 25-26, Hart Grub and Groove
July 29 -30, Arab and Chaldean Festival
August 11 -13, Ribs & R&B Music Fest
September 2 - 4, Detroit Jazz Festival
September 7 - 10, Marine Week
September 23, Metro Detroit Out of the Darkness Walk
October 21, Making Strides Against Breast Cancer Walk

Plus some dance party events for downtown workers, etc. that are listed on the Plaza's marquee.

The problem with keeping it as a festival site is the lack of festivals. This list can easily be boiled down to 4-5 events that make good use of Hart Plaza. The Hoedown and others moved out due to the cost of renting the site. Not certain what the solution is, but lots more events are necessary to justify it as a festival site.

[EastsideAl]

The problem with keeping it as a festival site is the lack of festivals. This list can easily be boiled down to 4-5 events that make good use of Hart Plaza. The Hoedown and others moved out due to the cost of renting the site. Not certain what the solution is, but lots more events are necessary to justify it as a festival site.

But a big part of the reason for the lack of festivals is the state of the plaza, especially given what the city now charges for its use. Other than the central location, why would you have your festival there when you have to pay an arm and a leg for a space that looks like it's been barely maintained for 20 years and where basic facilities are lacking or in poor condition?

Hart Plaza was full of festivals for many years after it opened. Pretty much one every weekend during the warm weather months. Obviously one big reason for the decline in the number of festivals was the decline in everything around here, from the economy to the population, for many years. But another big reason was the city's ill-fated move to make the plaza 'profitable', by raising the rates for it use above those of other comparable venues, which chased away several of the remaining festivals and turned the place into a very unprofitable ad ill-maintained wasteland for much of the year. Instead of being an attraction to people and a center of activity and life for the city as it had originally functioned, it became a dead zone.

But now the city has moved past those bad times and there's all kinds of life sprouting up in and around downtown. That could include more festivals, more people, and more life right at the heart of the city [[as it does during Jazz Fest and Movement). But only if someone can get Hart Plaza back together again as a decent place to hold them.

[hybridy]

Any details you can share?

No more that I can share. This was from a colleague with a close working relationship to Maurice cox's office.

heres a competition plan from 2013 to ponder:
https://www.plbny.com/plb-studioproj...terplan-depart

[EastsideAl]

I don't think we really need to, or should, screw around with the fundamentals of Noguchi's unique design so much. What's needed most now, it seems to me, are the little things. As I've said before, how about starting with some simple maintenance?

Just basic cleaning up, patching of concrete, repointing of stonework, light bulb replacement, simple bathroom plumbing work, simple electrical upgrades, and other small inexpensive things would go a long ways towards making it a better, more usable, and less embarrassing space. If this costs too much for the city to take on, perhaps the raising of some private money, as has been done for other parks and is regularly done in other cities, could be of use here. We can move from there to larger tweaks to the design to make it a bit more practical for current use.

I think the location "problem" is a red herring though. Back when the plaza was in more regular use it really wasn't that much of a problem and plenty of people flowed in and out of the place. Certainly waterfront parks and plazas in Chicago, or Washington, or the west side of Manhattan, or at the point in Pittsburgh, function as destinations themselves and are hardly underutilized despite the fact that people can't 'pass through' them on the way to somewhere else.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

A rarity, there are good and clear points in every post on this thread. Thanks for starting it, EastSideAl.

You are 100% correct that some basic maintenance and cleaning need to be done pronto. I suppose the powers that be are awaiting a plan to substantially remake the park for the future, so they are reluctant to put any money into it now. My Mom worked in the City-County Building when I was a kid, so I spent ample summer afternoons and evenings in Hart Plaza. Not much, though, in the intervening years.

Assuming maintenance and cleaning are done, though, it still has a few fundamental flaws. Biggest among them: when there isn't a festival, what is Hart Plaza? It's not a playground. It is not a garden. It is not a destination-style park, with regular attractions. It does not have ball fields. The location is terrific, if a bit forbidding [[yes, Jefferson is too wide, RenCen and Cobo are a bit of a hike either way).

If I were put in charge of planning, I would make it central to visiting downtown. I would put bike & segway rentals there, tourist info kiosks & central ticketing for plays, concerts, sports events etc. I would do a "mobile food court" with food carts and trucks out on the plaza itself. I would morph the Ford Auditorium site into a "great lawn" with daily programming from concerts to summer evening movies, to yoga and dancing. Something every day of the week during good weather. I would put a giant outdoor ice rink on the great lawn for 3 months every winter, with free skating and youth hockey. I also think I'd convert the current amphitheater into a skateboard park. And I would dot the plaza with even more trees and flowers. It is so big and open that without a lot of people there doing things it seems desolate and frigid in a way smaller parks never do. Oh, and I think the various sculptures & fountains [[and I would add more) should be lit in the evening so there is a fantastic modern light show.

So, to sum up, Hart Plaza needs more maintenance, more cleaning, and just plain more.

[MicrosoftFan]

I was JUST going to make a Hart Plaza post when I saw this...

I would say, however, that Hart Plaza needs to have more stairways to the riverfront. Most people going to Riverfront from Downtown cut through the RenCen, Hart Plaza needs to be more accessible in that regard. In addition, can we get rid of the parking lot on the Riverfront between RenCen and Hart Plaza? It looks tacky.

[Bham1982]

Hart Plaza's primary role, in the early years, was to host "ethnic festivals", which were mostly legacy festivals for the European immigrants.

Frankly, those festivals don't make sense anymore, because most of of the participants have passed away. Back in the 70's, there were still tons of first generation Italians, Poles, Germans from postwar immigration. Nowadays not so much and the subsequent generations are living in Macomb Township and fully Americanized.

[southen]

While I feel festivals are an important part of the function of the park, it needs to become a place for visitors to congregate and want to visit on non event days. During the summer the riverwalk through there is packed, as is Campus Martius, and a new design needs to connect these two areas better as well as give people reason to stay in the park.

How do you do that? For starters a fountain that works more than one weekend a year as a draw, but you add public art and things to activate the area. As was mentioned above, food trucks and rentals of bike or segways is a great way to get people in. A brick and mortar restaurant or two near Jefferson would also help and I think at this point in Detroit's recovery could be profitable.

Ideally I would love to see it become some sort of cross between the festival friendly space it is now and Millennium Park in Chicago. There is enough land to do a bit of both and make it a larger draw while retaining the usefulness it has now.

[ParisianLesion]

While I feel festivals are an important part of the function of the park, it needs to become a place for visitors to congregate and want to visit on non event days. During the summer the riverwalk through there is packed, as is Campus Martius, and a new design needs to connect these two areas better as well as give people reason to stay in the park.

How do you do that? For starters a fountain that works more than one weekend a year as a draw, but you add public art and things to activate the area. As was mentioned above, food trucks and rentals of bike or segways is a great way to get people in. A brick and mortar restaurant or two near Jefferson would also help and I think at this point in Detroit's recovery could be profitable.

Ideally I would love to see it become some sort of cross between the festival friendly space it is now and Millennium Park in Chicago. There is enough land to do a bit of both and make it a larger draw while retaining the usefulness it has now.

A fountain that doesn't look like an inverted robot's butthole would be nice...

[EGrant]

No more that I can share. This was from a colleague with a close working relationship to Maurice cox's office.

Figured as much. I appreciate the reply.

[southen]

A fountain that doesn't look like an inverted robot's butthole would be nice...

I happen to like the butthole. When it is running and lit it is pretty cool.

[bust]

I like it too. And ever since I was a kid and first saw it I heard how it was designed to do a lot more interesting things with the water but that the city has never gotten those extra features to work. It's been just as long that I've been hoping one day to finally see the intended design. When Hart Plaza is finally renovated I really hope that's part of the plan.

And I like a lot about Hart Plaza besides the fountain. It's one of the most unusual public spaces and one of the most important designed by Noguchi. And it inspires wacky theorizing like this. It would be a shame to significantly alter it. Some may not appreciate it but it's one of the unique places the city offers that brings tourists to Detroit. He may not be your favorite, but Noguchi is world famous.

Like EastsideAl and others have said Hart Plaza needs basic repair and maintenance, the parking lot needs to go away, and so many other haphazard alterations need to be removed or redone in ways that don't so significantly detract from the design.

Regarding the location, I agree it's challenging. It's surrounded by the river, two pedestrian-unfriendly megacomplexes, and one of the city's most pedestrian unfriendly streets. And unlike in Manhattan and Chicago, there are very few people who live nearby. Those challenges are largely man made and somewhat fixable.

Do I remember correctly there was some serious discussion to replace the parking lot with some pedestrian friendly amenities? Done right, that would be a big help. Replacing Cobo with a district scaled for a human would be a big help. And I like the talk about making downtown more walkable. I hope they figure out how to tame the traffic on Jefferson. Eliminating 375 would help. Connecting it to the Lodge via a tunnel would be a much more expensive [[and less desirable) alternative. And of course more residential and retail nearby that's not walled off in a megacomplex would help too.

In other words, there are lots of ways to help that don't destroy Noguchi's design.

Here's that link again. It's fun to have a look:

Stargate Detroit
http://chadstuemke.com/stargate-detroit-i/