Windsor's Little Italy

**Oddz313** · September-06-17, 07:04 AM

Article today in the Freep about the changing landscape of little Italy in Windsor, I remember going there in the early part of the last decade when I had a girlfriend over there for a couple years to places like Toni Macaroni.....http://www.freep.com/story/entertain...sed/634479001/

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Oddz313

Article today in the Freep about the changing landscape of little Italy in Windsor, I remember going there in the early part of the last decade when I had a girlfriend over there for a couple years to places like Toni Macaroni.....http://www.freep.com/story/entertain...sed/634479001/

Windsor, overall, is doing well at the moment, economically.

But the tourism related sector, which relied on casual day/overnight trips from the U.S. remains deeply wounded.

I think one important thing that will have to change for this sector to recover is raising the percentage of Michiganders w/a passport.

As at 2016, I believe its still under 40%.

That, of course, is not a matter of policy or control for Windsor or Canada.

Though, I've long thought that a promotional move in Ontario to rebate American's the cost of their passport, if they stay at least 2 nights in a hotel here might yield some uptake.

Totally apart from that, however, I do think the U.S. passport holding rate is bizarrely low. I think it would be in the interests of the United States itself to get a higher penetration rate.

Americans here may have a better beat on this issue than I; but I wonder whether inordinately low levels of paid vacation are a factor?

Most countries around the world provide 4 or more weeks by law.

Canada is relatively low by comparison, but well above US norms.

Is this a factor? If not why is the passport rate so low?

**Bham1982** · September-06-17, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

Is this a factor? If not why is the passport rate so low?

Probably because the U.S. is an enormous country, with a ton of "stuff" for domestic leisure or business travelers.

Canada is comparatively much "smaller", people have to travel to the U.S. for many things [[beaches, warm weather, desert, major cities, etc.), and virtually the entire Canadian population is right on the border, making cross-border travel more common. Most of the U.S. side of the border is empty or pretty sparse or declined, so the inverse isn't true.

Also, the U.S. has much lower airfares, so many Canadians utilize airports directly over the border. Shopping, too, was a big deal traditionally, though less so now that the Canadian dollar is weaker and Canadian retail offerings have improved [[Canada didn't get upscale stores like Nordstrom and Saks until the last year or so).

I doubt it has much to do with vacation days, which aren't that different in the U.S. and Canada. Most professionals in the U.S. get four weeks or so.

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Probably because the U.S. is an enormous country, with a ton of "stuff" for domestic leisure or business travelers.

Canada is comparatively much "smaller", people have to travel to the U.S. for many things [[beaches, warm weather, desert, major cities, etc.), and virtually the entire Canadian population is right on the border, making cross-border travel more common. Most of the U.S. side of the border is empty or pretty sparse or declined, so the inverse isn't true.

Also, the U.S. has much lower airfares, so many Canadians utilize airports directly over the border. Shopping, too, was a big deal traditionally, though less so now that the Canadian dollar is weaker and Canadian retail offerings have improved [[Canada didn't get upscale stores like Nordstrom and Saks until the last year or so).

I doubt it has much to do with vacation days, which aren't that different in the U.S. and Canada. Most professionals in the U.S. get four weeks or so.

While a great many of those points are valid in the U.S./Canada context [[I might take issue w/'big cities', given that in most areas of Canada there are no convenient larger US cities directly across the border.

And there is no denying the geographic diversity of the US....

I would point out that most of the developed world, not just Canada, holds passports at far higher rates. Typically 60-80%.

Those countries on other continents don't have all their citizens congregated next to the US border, and they often face greater barriers to immediate cross-border travel such as language.

The issue, I would suggest is not why Canadians have passports in normative numbers for a developed nation; but why US rates are so low.

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 10:29 AM

PS, we do OK for beaches in summer.....the world's largest freshwater beach is in Ontario [[Wasaga Beach).

Granted, we do need to leave the country if we want to wear swimwear, outside, in January.

**fastcarsandfreedom** · September-06-17, 11:25 AM

I spend a lot of time on both sides of the border locally. I thought this particular article was oddly negative and bordering on vitriolic. Old-world ethnic enclave neighborhoods are changing everywhere -- Via Italia is among those. While Erie Street may not be pulsing with life every weekday afternoon, it remains a good, walkable destination and on weekends it remains busy/vibrant. Neighborhoods like this in general -- urban and diverse -- are on the upswing -- not the downswing -- as evidenced all around the Detroit and Windsor area and their environs. Things did change markedly after 9/11 -- but let us not forget that 9/11 was 16 years ago.

**preserve** · September-06-17, 01:36 PM

There used to be a really good German Restaurant in Walkerville, Rhinelander? maybe Is it still there?

**Richard** · September-06-17, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

While a great many of those points are valid in the U.S./Canada context [[I might take issue w/'big cities', given that in most areas of Canada there are no convenient larger US cities directly across the border.

And there is no denying the geographic diversity of the US....

I would point out that most of the developed world, not just Canada, holds passports at far higher rates. Typically 60-80%.

Those countries on other continents don't have all their citizens congregated next to the US border, and they often face greater barriers to immediate cross-border travel such as language.

The issue, I would suggest is not why Canadians have passports in normative numbers for a developed nation; but why US rates are so low.

Most of the developed world countries are the size of one of our states,driving from Florida to Georgia here is like traveling from one country to the other.

So they need passports more so then Americans,Tampa to Detroit 1170 miles passing through four states and needing no passport,it would be the same as driving through 4 different countries in Europe.

I agree with the other post,our land mass and each states unique diversity could pretty much fill up a lifetime of travel.

In Orlando for years I met travelers from all over the world,they all spoke basic English.

If you can fly to Paris for a weekend for $200 including hotel it becomes a weekend jaunt verses a vacation.Then it becomes the U.S. for a proper vacation.

Lots of people in the U.S. have not even ever been on a plane let alone leave their birth state.

Fancy European vacations are more for you highly educated rich folks,us poor uneducated folk have to rely on enjoying the beauty that this country has to offer on a budget.No passport required.

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Most of the developed world countries are the size of one of our states,driving from Florida to Georgia here is like traveling from one country to the other.

So they need passports more so then Americans,Tampa to Detroit 1170 miles passing through four states and needing no passport,it would be the same as driving through 4 different countries in Europe.

I agree with the other post,our land mass and each states unique diversity could pretty much fill up a lifetime of travel.

In Orlando for years I met travelers from all over the world,they all spoke basic English.

If you can fly to Paris for a weekend for $200 including hotel it becomes a weekend jaunt verses a vacation.Then it becomes the U.S. for a proper vacation.

Lots of people in the U.S. have not even ever been on a plane let alone leave their birth state.

Fancy European vacations are more for you highly educated rich folks,us poor uneducated folk have to rely on enjoying the beauty that this country has to offer on a budget.No passport required.

I'm not sure why European or Canadian, or Asian vacations are fancy. While not as cheap as going to your local State Park to camp, they aren't inherently all that expensive.

A lot teens go to Europe and hostel it; and get a cheap rail pass while there; if you fly on a charter, you could probably do 2 weeks for under $3,000

As for rich; again I think this is a misnomer; the U.S. does not lack money, on the whole.

Further, in my expanded social circle which includes some non-uni grads, who do all sorts of non-fancy work from security to clerical; I can think of only a handful who haven't been to Europe. Probably half have been to a dozen or more countries.

Its something people do here, even though we have a very big country w/mountains, 3 oceans, 4 seasons, big cities, 2 languages [[plus various aboriginal ones) etc.

People just want to explore.

Is that not a desire in the U.S. ?

I know quite a few Americans personally, many of whom travel extensively; though I'll admit my social circle there is probably not representative.

**Richard** · September-06-17, 07:08 PM

If you are wondering about why Canada's tourism is not stellar,it boils down to spending money to make money,or promoting yourself.

80% of tourism in Canada is domestic tourism,kinda like the U.S.

Canada has dropped yearly in tourism due to lack of promotion funding and highest point of entry costs.

Most seek value for dollar.

Based on the study in the link which explains the reasons.The tourism council wanted to reach a goal of 100 billion in tourism revenue by 2015 based on the 2011 report,so you kinda need to find an updated report to compare progress or not.

Tourism is funny in how it works,even down to exchange rates.

If the U.S. is in a slump they can devalue the dollar and open the gates quick,U.K. Pound is $1.02 or something like that so it is more value for them to go to Cuba or Paris verses the U.S. at the moment.

When it was at $1.76 they were buying properties and spending big bucks over here.

But you cannot just sit there and say,here we are,you have to sell yourself as a destination with value,and that takes money.

http://tiac.travel/_Library/document...Optimized_.pdf

You guys spend more money promoting refugee relocations then tourism,you only have one pot of gold to work out of.

New York City is listed as our top destination both national and international,I have been there 3 times and each time it was a horrible experience for me.

I have been around the world,albeit on the gov dime,people are the same everywhere you go,to me it is the architecture and experience of different foods and cultures,but I can find that in Florida in daily life anyways.The cultural mix part anyways.

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

If you are wondering about why Canada's tourism is not stellar,it boils down to spending money to make money,or promoting yourself.

80% of tourism in Canada is domestic tourism,kinda like the U.S.

Canada has dropped yearly in tourism due to lack of promotion funding and highest point of entry costs.

Most seek value for dollar.

Based on the study in the link which explains the reasons.The tourism council wanted to reach a goal of 100 billion in tourism revenue by 2015 based on the 2011 report,so you kinda need to find an updated report to compare progress or not.

Tourism is funny in how it works,even down to exchange rates.

If the U.S. is in a slump they can devalue the dollar and open the gates quick,U.K. Pound is $1.02 or something like that so it is more value for them to go to Cuba or Paris verses the U.S. at the moment.

When it was at $1.76 they were buying properties and spending big bucks over here.

But you cannot just sit there and say,here we are,you have to sell yourself as a destination with value,and that takes money.

http://tiac.travel/_Library/document...Optimized_.pdf

You guys spend more money promoting refugee relocations then tourism,you only have one pot of gold to work out of.

Feel free not to dominate every thread............

For the record, Toronto is the 4th most visited City in North America. There is no lack of tourists here. Bump into them everywhere.

But most are global, from Asia, Europe, elsewhere in Canada, or from specific areas of the US, NYC, LA, Boston, among others.

****

Again, what I asked was not specific to destination. It was about Americans owning passports, whether they use them to visit China, Australia, France, Brazil or Canada...etc.

I consider myself middle class, I'm near the US border, I live in a vast country, I've been in 6 provinces [[out of 10); but I've also been to more than a 1/2 dozen US States, and several European countries.

I am not out of the norm in Toronto. Yes there are folks who can't afford to travel or don't want to, but they are a small minority.

Why is it different in the US?

PS, I don't consider the exchange rate much when I travel. [[total cost matters, of course)

**softailrider** · September-06-17, 07:56 PM

Before 9-11 two or three times a year we would go to Windsor for dinner and a casino visit. Since then customs became more problematic and we stopped going. Who needs the uncertainty of how long it's going to take to cross over and get back? If I want to lose money in a casino I can accomplish that over here. Do I miss going over there for those evenings? maybe, it was something different that we did, always enjoyed it.

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Before 9-11 two or three times a year we would go to Windsor for dinner and a casino visit. Since then customs became more problematic and we stopped going. Who needs the uncertainty of how long it's going to take to cross over and get back? If I want to lose money in a casino I can accomplish that over here. Do I miss going over there for those evenings? maybe, it was something different that we did, always enjoyed it.

Totally understandable.

For purposes of this thread, did you then, do you now have a passport?

Was that a critical factor in choosing to come over or not?

Is/was it US customs that gave you a hard time, or Canada?

What could change to make it worth your while to visit again/more often?

**Richard** · September-06-17, 08:22 PM

^ you whine about me dominating the thread,but yet here you are.

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

^ you whine about me dominating the thread,but yet here you are.

One straight-forward sentence is not a whine.

It is a request.

You weren't in this thread; you had nothing useful to add to it.

You still don't.

There are lots of your compatriots who do have something useful to say, let them speak/post.

You answer questions, that were never asked w/answers that aren't true.

This is near universal with you.

Once in a blue moon, you slip in a fact and try to assert that proves you don't peddle complete nonsense.

Its not a legitimate defense.

I reply to your posts, at this point, only to let others know your full of something and give them the truth.

Most already knew, but I feel better as a person by making sure.

**Richard** · September-06-17, 09:20 PM

Well,I guess you are the self designated collective mind.

You are making a request in a public forum discussion and trying to set the standards according to your view.

The OT had more to do with the changing immigration patterns of the early Europeans and the impact and you want to obsess with passports.

Michigan is an EDL state and would not require a passport to visit Canada,correct?

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Michigan is an EDL state and would not require a passport to visit Canada,correct?

Yes.

But I it has been put that US customs may 'hassle' you when you return.

EDL is also something your not that likely to get, if you can't afford or aren't interested in a passport. Its still extra money, time, hassle vs status quo. Maybe a tad less than w/a passport.....

They also don't work at airports as I understand it, only at land crossings [[obviously that covers Windsor, but it does limit its advantages to the holder)

**Canadian Visitor** · September-06-17, 09:48 PM

New York's uptake rate for passports seems to be in/around 60%. Also a border state; why the difference?

**masterblaster** · September-07-17, 05:12 AM

I go to Windsor about once every month or every two months to enjoy the nightlife on Oullette Street and Olde Walkerville. I also come to enjoy the riverfront. I love their riverfront. So much more greenery than our riverfront.

I think the difficulty getting into and out of Canada is overstated. I have never been hassled in the 3 or so years that I have been going to Windsor. One time, while taking the Tunnel Bus back to Detroit, some custom agents took me to the side to ask me additional questions, but other than that, it has been a breeze for me.

I encourage all metro Detroiters to put Windsor in your rotation. Little Italy, Olde Walkerville, and Ottawa Street are all fun, and West Wyandotte Avenue near the University of Windsor has a ton of great Asian restaurants. Downtown could be better, but like I said, the riverfront parks in Windsor are fantastic.

They also have a pretty good bike trail system in Windsor too.

**Crystal** · September-07-17, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

PS, we do OK for beaches in summer.....the world's largest freshwater beach is in Ontario [[Wasaga Beach).

Wasaga Beach was one of the questions on Jeopardy last night. All three contestants incorrectly answered which Great Lake Wasaga Beach is on. Sigh.

**mikeg19** · September-07-17, 06:00 AM

I was over for dinner a couple years ago during the World Cup, and it just so happened Italy was playing. It was pretty busy, yes, but I also thought it was a bit thinner of a crowd than there should have been. Didn't have any issue walking into the bars or getting a table for dinner. My wife got a kick out of it, as we are both Italian, and didn't realize Windsor had a Little Italy. But as has been noted, after they started requiring passports, plus the crush of traffic coming over for dinner, plus the exchange rate note being as good as 15 years ago, I do believe a lot of people have neglected going over any longer.

**Honky Tonk** · September-07-17, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

I was over for dinner a couple years ago during the World Cup, and it just so happened Italy was playing. It was pretty busy, yes, but I also thought it was a bit thinner of a crowd than there should have been. Didn't have any issue walking into the bars or getting a table for dinner. My wife got a kick out of it, as we are both Italian, and didn't realize Windsor had a Little Italy. But as has been noted, after they started requiring passports, plus the crush of traffic coming over for dinner, plus the exchange rate note being as good as 15 years ago, I do believe a lot of people have neglected going over any longer.

Windsore also has a terrific Asian section, but don't let anyone know.

**Bham1982** · September-07-17, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

For the record, Toronto is the 4th most visited City in North America. There is no lack of tourists here. Bump into them everywhere.

"Most visited" has nothing to do with "most tourists".

Toronto is the 3rd largest city in "North America" [[you really mean U.S. + Canada); one would expect it would have many visitors, especially being the business center of Canada and basically 60% of the population is from somewhere else.

Toronto isn't a big tourist city, however. Why would Americans come in big numbers to Toronto? What would be the specific appeal? CN Tower? It's a largely generic city.

From a Michigan perspective, Chicago is much more appealing [[again, speaking strictly tourist stuff) and if you're in the the Northeast, the Northeast Corridor cities are closer and far more appealing. Montreal and Quebec are more attractive to Americans, and even those cities don't get huge numbers.

Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

I consider myself middle class, I'm near the US border, I live in a vast country, I've been in 6 provinces [[out of 10); but I've also been to more than a 1/2 dozen US States, and several European countries.

Canada has significantly lower household incomes than in the U.S., alongside much higher taxes, housing and auto costs. I seriously doubt average Canadian families are dropping 5-10k every year to visit Europe. It's anecdotal, but I have very rarely encountered Canadians in Europe but Americans are absolutely everywhere.

If you live in upper middle class American communities, yes, traveling to Europe is the norm. I travel to Europe fairly frequently, on my own dime. But the Cracker Barrel crowd obviously isn't jetting off to Paris and Prague on a regular basis.

Also, many families who could afford it choose to spend their leisure time/money on other pursuits. Cottages Up North, ATVs, boats, snowmobiles and other stuff. Not my cup of tea, but tons of people would take an ATV over Paris.

**Bham1982** · September-07-17, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

New York's uptake rate for passports seems to be in/around 60%. Also a border state; why the difference?

New York is much wealthier and more educated than Michigan; also New York has a ton of immigrants who naturally travel back to their home countries. And it's cheaper to travel from New York to Europe as opposed to Detroit to Europe.

And, yeah, New York is a "border state", but not like Michigan. Most of the New York border with Canada is either empty forest or the small, declined metro of Buffalo.

NYC and environs are nowhere near Canada. It's an eight hour drive from NYC to Toronto. To most New Yorkers, Canada is about as "close" as Mexico.

**MrMichigan** · September-07-17, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

"Most visited" has nothing to do with "most tourists".

Toronto isn't a big tourist city, however. Why would Americans come in big numbers to Toronto? What would be the specific appeal? CN Tower? It's a largely generic city.

From a Michigan perspective, Chicago is much more appealing [[again, speaking strictly tourist stuff) and if you're in the the Northeast, the Northeast Corridor cities are closer and far more appealing. Montreal and Quebec are more attractive to Americans, and even those cities don't get huge numbers.

Bham, I disagree 100%. When is the last time you have been to Toronto? In my book, it compares very favorably to Chicago.