Buildings next to Fillmore slated for demolition

**Bham1982** · August-30-17, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I can't imagine they would tear it down. It's not dilapidated, the windows look brand new or at least from within this century. Madison-Lenox was boarded up, this looks move-in ready.

You can't imagine the Illitches tearing that down? Ha!

I can see a gravel parking lot. If you own a nearby arena with basically 100% auto-based patronage, a lot makes more practical sense than any other use.

**ABetterDetroit** · August-30-17, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Zads07

Figured it was best not to start a new thread, because this building butts up next to the two that want to be torn down. Ilitch has bought the Women's City Club Building. I hope and pray he does not tear this beauty down, but I won't hold my breath.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...or-585-million

Attachment 34089

It sucks that when Olympia acquires a property that demolition comes to mind first as to what they are going to do with it under their watch.

I thought the same thing, next come the excuses that the new LC building needs more parking. Then how lucky Detroit is to have this family make all this parking, followed by how 'entertaining' all the parking is on their side of town...

**Wesley Mouch** · August-30-17, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Just an aside.... 2 small but historic buildings [[both more attractive than what's behind the Fillmore)... had to come down to build the Detroit Opera House stage expansion... and loading docks.

Are you suggesting Dr. DiChiera is really a relative of Mike Ilitch? He doesn't look Macedonian.

Originally Posted by Gistok

Sometimes choices have to be made that we are not very happy with... but in either case the end result is NOT a parking lot...

Cast thee out, moderate. If you don't condemn Ilitch here, you might as well confess voting for Trump.

But seriously, folks, this is true. In any city where there's been redevelopment, historic and heritage buildings get torn down. Sometimes, its really necessary. Should these two pleasant buildings be saved, if the cost might be making the Fillmore unable to compete for concerts?

The usual schedule for a Rock concert is an 8am load-in. Typically, two semi-trucks with hundreds of individual road cases are unloaded by a crew of about a dozen, fed into the theatre's stage and auditorium to a crew of another dozen or two stagehands. [[Sometimes there are more trucks. Four is not unusual.) This needs to be complete, typically by 1pm. Lunch follows. Then the afternoon is spent by the touring crews configuring all the mechanics, electronics, and musical equipment. Everything has to be ready before the audience arrives. Loading in through an alley is possible, but difficult. Plus you have 1-4 motor coaches that have to park nearby for crew to use throughout the day. And you don't want to send the semi-trucks away if you don't have too. Since you can't risk them getting stuck in ballpark traffic when you're ready to pack the show out, starting at 11 pm. Its shoved in the trucks in about an hour or two. And then the drivers rush to the next city. Could be Cleveland, or Chicago, or farther. And they have to be there at 8am to meet their next crew of stagehands.

A good loading lot is as essential to a theatre as bathrooms are to the customers. If the loading area sucks, tours may decline to play your theatre, and go to another theatre, or even another city.

If you think they can handle a little inconvenience to save these buildings, go down there and what an entire load-in and load-out and then let us know.

**gumby** · August-30-17, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I can't imagine they would tear it down. It's not dilapidated, the windows look brand new or at least from within this century. Madison-Lenox was boarded up, this looks move-in ready.

Actually I am pretty sure Madison-Lennox was an occupied building when Ilitch bought it. It at least had windows and was relatively secure from the elements. He then promptly removed the windows.

**emu steve** · August-30-17, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I can't imagine they would tear it down. It's not dilapidated, the windows look brand new or at least from within this century. Madison-Lenox was boarded up, this looks move-in ready.

That would be my guess.

After all isn't this building in better shape than the four other renovations to be done in 2018?

I suspect the Ilitch org will own the building and someone else will do the rehab.

P.S. if the Ilitches would like to sell some of their undeveloped land across the street wouldn't having this building renovated make it [[sale of develop-able land) more likely.

P.S. [[2). Once all of the construction, rehabs, etc. are done I think it would be nice if the streets in the area were milled and paved. These are high traffic, high visibility streets and appearance matters.

**dtowncitylover** · August-30-17, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

You can't imagine the Illitches tearing that down? Ha!

I can see a gravel parking lot. If you own a nearby arena with basically 100% auto-based patronage, a lot makes more practical sense than any other use.

No, I can imagine the Illitches tearing down buildings. But this building is in much better condition than the Madison Lenox or Wolverine Hotel.

**emu steve** · August-30-17, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

No, I can imagine the Illitches tearing down buildings. But this building is in much better condition than the Madison Lenox or Wolverine Hotel.

Wasn't the problem that Madison Lenox was vacant and near Ford Field and the city didn't want vacant structures near it for the Super Bowl?

**southen** · August-30-17, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Wasn't the problem that Madison Lenox was vacant and near Ford Field and the city didn't want vacant structures near it for the Super Bowl?

Ilitch began an illegal demolition of the structure which then forced the rest of the building to be torn down. He then promised that it would be redeveloped and not remain a parking lot...

**bust** · August-30-17, 01:20 PM

Dismayed at the news about the Women's City Club Building.

I suggest this topic is important enough to deserve its own thread.

The Women's City Club building is listed on the National Register of Historic Places and is designated a Michigan State Historic Site. It may not call attention to itself these days but it is a notable example of early modernist / arts and crafts architecture. It was innovative when it was built in 1924. It was designed by William B. Stratton, the husband of Mary Chase Perry Stratton, a co-founder of Pewabic Pottery. It's decorated with countless Pewabic Pottery tiles inside and out.

It would be an utter shame to lose it.

**emu steve** · August-30-17, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by southen

Ilitch began an illegal demolition of the structure which then forced the rest of the building to be torn down. He then promised that it would be redeveloped and not remain a parking lot...

This seems to be disputed in an USA Today article. So it seems to be he said [[historic preservationists) vs. she said [[city, Ilitches).

It seems the judge had to referee between the two sides.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trave...ic-hotel_x.htm

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trav...it-hotel_x.htm

**bust** · August-30-17, 01:33 PM

Back to the original topic, Gnome posted a nice photo of them in a previous thread:

Originally Posted by gnome

Attachment 20244

From detroit historical society files.

The building on the left was quite nice too.

Wesley Mouch, I remember you saying you lived around there back in the day. Any stories to tell?

**Jason** · August-30-17, 01:34 PM

The facade on the right is already destroyed. In order to renovate it you'd already have to replace most of the ornament and bricks, and whatever you didn't replace would still look rough. The facade on the left is in better shape, and it's restrained and handsome and timeless, but it's also very replaceable. Because it's all built into a house, the interior is probably in terrible shape and the floor plan is likely completely useless. And as far as the urban fabric goes, that's a pretty natural space to have an alley/gap, and if there had always been a gap there no one would have thought anything of it.

We'll have to wait until the Little Caesars HQ is done before we'll know how well it interfaces with the street at ground level, but urbanistically the massing is just what the area needs.

The tradeoff for this demolition is great, to me the choice is a no-brainer.

**bust** · August-30-17, 01:43 PM

I encourage anyone interested in what happened to the Madison Lenox to read the very detailed account at historicdetroit.org:

Historic Detroit: Madison-Lenox Hotel
http://historicdetroit.org/building/...n-lenox-hotel/

If that account is correct Mike Ilitch displayed gross neglect for pure greed. Unfortunately for all of us, that seems perfectly in keeping with so much of his other behavior.

**One Shot** · August-30-17, 01:58 PM

Must be nice to catch all the tax breaks and handouts to continue to buy properties.

**southen** · August-30-17, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

This seems to be disputed in an USA Today article. So it seems to be he said [[historic preservationists) vs. she said [[city, Ilitches).

It seems the judge had to referee between the two sides.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trave...ic-hotel_x.htm

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trav...it-hotel_x.htm

There was an order to halt, they ignored it and did enough damage to force the demo to proceed. "She" also said that they would redevelop the site while "He" rightly predicted that the site would remain parking like every other building that the Ilitch family had demolished. Do you find it at all odd that the ML fits perfectly into their track record of demolishing perfectly good buildings for surface parking without any plans for development?

Odd that they would start remediation without pulling proper permits for the buildings on Cass as well, right?

**Zads07** · August-30-17, 03:28 PM

Here's an article from Mlive with information on the proposed demolition.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...art_river_home

**emu steve** · August-30-17, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Zads07

Here's an article from Mlive with information on the proposed demolition.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...art_river_home

The problem with headlines is that words are limited and they can be misleading.

In this case 'parking lot' is misleading. Maybe something like "loading dock" or "stage loading area".

**Zads07** · August-30-17, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

The problem with headlines is that words are limited and they can be misleading.

In this case 'parking lot' is misleading. Maybe something like "loading dock" or "stage loading area".

Literally the first sentence says it will be torn down for loading access and a SMALL PARKING LOT. So no, the headline is not misleading.

"Once razed, Forbes aims to pave the parcel into a parking lot and erect an 8-foot fence around the perimeter."

**Jason** · August-30-17, 10:07 PM

But the impetus for the demolition is loading access. I think the parking there will be parking for vehicles associated with the shows being put on, not a general purpose parking lot. At least that's what I'd imagine. It looks like it's big enough for a few trucks/buses to back in, but it's not big enough for a real parking lot.

Also I didn't realize that the facade on the right has already been replaced.

I love architecture and I think preservation is important, but this is the dumbest preservation battle ever.

**emu steve** · August-31-17, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I can't imagine they would tear it down. It's not dilapidated, the windows look brand new or at least from within this century. Madison-Lenox was boarded up, this looks move-in ready.

I completely agree. I think the Ilitches bought it because they WANT it rehabbed and put back in service.

It is a beautiful building and occupied would bring some more life to that area.

**Gistok** · August-31-17, 04:05 AM

I agree Jason.

Also of all people... 90 year old Chuck Forbes and his son Jim, who now runs the family business, are the least likely people you would ever want to do battle against, preservation wise.

They are responsible for saving more building on the endangered north end of downtown, than anyone else... by far!

Live Nation, who runs the Fillmore [[their theatre brand name) has treated the former State Theatre with a lot of TLC.... and is continuing to improve the theatre [[which they don't even own). Having them pull out of their lease because stage shows bypass the Fillmore due to staging difficulties is not worth it.

These 2 buildings have been bastardized so much over the years... it seems doubtful that what is underneath the facades may be worth keeping.

**emu steve** · August-31-17, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Zads07

Literally the first sentence says it will be torn down for loading access and a SMALL PARKING LOT. So no, the headline is not misleading.

"Once razed, Forbes aims to pave the parcel into a parking lot and erect an 8-foot fence around the perimeter."

I don't think it isn't a parking lot the way folks here define a parking lot any more than the area behind your favorite grocery [[delivery area) is what I'd call a parking lot

**Wesley Mouch** · September-01-17, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Zads07

Literally the first sentence says it will be torn down for loading access and a SMALL PARKING LOT. So no, the headline is not misleading.

"Once razed, Forbes aims to pave the parcel into a parking lot and erect an 8-foot fence around the perimeter."

The problem here is taxonomy.

When you go to do an improvement, the city expects -- well requires you to define your use, and then design it to those requirements.

Forbes / Live Nation will likely be parking trucks and cars in the lot, in addition to loading. So they apply for a parking lot. Nobody knows what a 'stage loading lot' is. So the media uses the simple term.

I would expect that Forbes will apply for a parking operators license for the lot, so they can park cars and charge legally. I'm sure there will be days when that's appropriate. But since the impetus here was their loss of the loading area, I am willing to take Chuck and Jim at their word -- and believe that the media is unintentionally misleading in their description. They probably have no idea what a show load-in/out looks like.

**emu steve** · September-01-17, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

The problem here is taxonomy.

When you go to do an improvement, the city expects -- well requires you to define your use, and then design it to those requirements.

Forbes / Live Nation will likely be parking trucks and cars in the lot, in addition to loading. So they apply for a parking lot. Nobody knows what a 'stage loading lot' is. So the media uses the simple term.

I would expect that Forbes will apply for a parking operators license for the lot, so they can park cars and charge legally. I'm sure there will be days when that's appropriate. But since the impetus here was their loss of the loading area, I am willing to take Chuck and Jim at their word -- and believe that the media is unintentionally misleading in their description. They probably have no idea what a show load-in/out looks like.

Yes, this thread is getting to be a head scratcher.

The Forbes want to tear down two buildings so that the operators of the Fillmore can use that area as a loading dock for that venue.

The real question should be how the FORBES will aesthetically treat that area.

Then somehow it gets morphed into a discussion of parking lots and Ilitches...

P.S. I once spoke with a local [[Washington) reporter about the headline for a story he wrote. He said that editors, not the reporter, write the headline.

And yes headlines often don't have the clarity of the first paragraph of an article because they are a limited number of words, not sentences.

**Zads07** · September-01-17, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Yes, this thread is getting to be a head scratcher.

The Forbes want to tear down two buildings so that the operators of the Fillmore can use that area as a loading dock for that venue.

The real question should be how the FORBES will aesthetically treat that area.

Then somehow it gets morphed into a discussion of parking lots and Ilitches...

P.S. I once spoke with a local [[Washington) reporter about the headline for a story he wrote. He said that editors, not the reporter, write the headline.

And yes headlines often don't have the clarity of the first paragraph of an article because they are a limited number of words, not sentences.

I also work in journalism and I write my own headlines and sometimes my editor does it for me. This is getting to be quite ridiculous. It's a parking lot/loading area, simple as that.