Welcome to Dem Land

[canuck]

10 Canadian provinces out of 10 didn't vote for Trump.

[bust]

bust, I didn't offer conclusions except in your imagination. Cite any conclusions you contend I offered. I put a couple of statistics out there without commenting. Another statistic: The 10 states where residents pay the highest taxes all voted for Hillary. Nine of the 10 states paid the lowest taxes, as a percentage of income, voted for Trump.

Yeah right, everyone wants to live in New Jersey and Illinois to pay more for food, housing, and transportation and pay higher taxes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I took "you get what you vote for" to indicate you believe there is a cause and effect relationship somehow there.

In any case, yes, more people would rather live in New Jersey and Illinois, despite their higher taxes. Certainly more than who choose to live in the low tax states listed in the article you referenced.

Do you agree population density is a good measure where people choose to live? Let's cross reference the 15 highest and lowest tax states from your list against data for population density, to test our hypotheses.

Low Tax States			High Tax States
Tax Burden	State	Population Density	Tax Burden	State	Population Density
50	AK	50	15	PA	9
49	WY	49	14	HI	13
48	SD	46	13	DE	6
47	TN	20	12	OR	39
46	LA	23	11	VT	31
45	TX	26	10	MA	3
44	NH	21	9	MN	30
43	NV	42	8	RI	2
42	SC	19	7	MD	5
41	OK	35	6	WI	25
40	MS	32	5	IL	12
39	NM	45	4	CA	11
38	MT	48	3	NJ	1
37	AL	27	2	CT	4
36	AZ	33	1	NY	7
Median:		33	Median:		9

The highest possible median for a pool of 15 out of a set of 50 is 43, the lowest is 8.

Wow, lookee.

The 15 highest taxed states include 8 out of the top 9 most densely populated, and 11 of the top 13.

The 15 lowest taxed states include 5 out of the 6 least densely populated. South Carolina is the most densely populated among them, at a middling 19. Michigan is denser.

The trend is clear: states with high taxes tend to be more attractive; states with low taxes are not.

And to your examples: New Jersey has the highest population density in the nation; Illinois, at 12, has attracted more people per square whatever than all 15 states with the lowest taxes.

Of course it would be wrong to conclude from this that people want to pay more taxes. But it does indicate taxes must not be the biggest factor where people choose to live.

One possibility: Could taxes in some states be providing things people want? I realize it's hard for a libertarian to imagine.

Speaking from my own experience, taxes are significantly higher in New York than in Michigan, but the infrastructure and public services are incomparably better, and that more than makes up for it. The problem in New York now isn't taxes, it's that too many people want to live there.

Another: Are people congregating to avoid Trump voters?

Nah, that's not fair to say. The densely populated states were popular long before Trump.

Besides, we mustn't trigger our president. We know how sensitive he is about the popularity topic.

PS. I got my population density data here.

[Richard]

^ without quoting the entire post,how come they left Florida out of the chart ?

Is it because that it has high population centers,high income levels but low taxes and did not fit the intended narrative of the chart?

1000 people a day moving to and a population that surpassed California.

asking for a friend.

New Jersey population in 2013 8.92 million,2017 8.96 million,not much flocking there.

[GMan]

10 Canadian provinces out of 10 didn't vote for Trump.

I think they asked for a recount in Nunavut.

[oladub]

bust [[post 227), "The problem in New York now isn't taxes, it's that too many people want to live there." Really, than why is N.Y. losing more residents to other states than any other state? More California residents move to other states than move in from other states although "immigrants" keep pouring in more than offsetting the loss of American residents. High taxes and high home prices are cited as the top reason residents move out. 800,000 people are expected to leave California and New York in the next three years due to high taxes. Democrats are fighting to keep tax breaks for the rich. Moving vans are hauling people out of New Jersey at a faster rate than any other state [[63% outbound) although again, the immigration of poorer foreigners more than offsets residents moving out. High taxes and regulations are given as the most common reason residents flee New Jersey. In 2016-2017, Illinois had 114,000 more residents moving out of the state than moved in from other states; 643,000 since 2010. So much for your "more people would rather live in New Jersey and Illinois" unless its some sort of secret wish of masochists or you were referring to "immigrants" who prefer NJ and IL to the s-holes they came from.

As for your apologist reasoning that population density makes people in Democratic states pay higher taxes, and more for food, housing, and transportation, there is no causual evidence that the efficiencies of denser population should be responsible for higher costs. I lived in rural areas for enough decades to realize that running utility lines and roads a quarter mile between houses, grocery stores being fifteen miles away and far from any grocery company warehouse add to transportation costs. California has high taxes and lousy schools. Detroit has high property taxes and lousy schools. That somehow reminds me; the 10, or is it 30 U.S. cities, with the highest murder rate all voted for Hillary. Is it coincidence or do people get the results of policies they voted for?

Summary: Taxes, food, housing and transportation costs are higher in states that voted for Hillary as well as cities with the highest murder rates. States that accounted for the highest percentage of purchasing foreign cars giving places like Detroit and Flint a kick also voted for Hillary. You get what you vote for and spend on.

[Pam]

Jimmy Dore show- "Democrats’ Lack Of Agenda Painfully Apparent"

https://youtu.be/ebAC28asSdk

[bust]

Pam, thanks for bringing this back to my attention. I'm reminded to respond to Oladub.

Oladub, I guess I need to clarify. When I was talking about New York I was talking about New York City, not upstate. They are two different worlds. I thought that was clear.

Upstate the population is shrinking, no disagreement.

New York City population, with all its taxes, and the services and other amenities that come with them, is at a record high.

New York City’s Population Hits a Record 8.6 Million
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/22/n...opulation.html

People are paying a pretty penny to live there too. You live in Wisconsin? Are you aware how prices compare?

[oladub]

Pam, thanks for bringing this back to my attention. I'm reminded to respond to Oladub.

Oladub, I guess I need to clarify. When I was talking about New York I was talking about New York City, not upstate. They are two different worlds. I thought that was clear.

Upstate the population is shrinking, no disagreement.

New York City population, with all its taxes, and the services and other amenities that come with them, is at a record high.

New York City’s Population Hits a Record 8.6 Million
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/22/n...opulation.html

People are paying a pretty penny to live there too. You live in Wisconsin? Are you aware how prices compare?

Taxes are a bit on the high side in Wisconsin but schools are good, State universities are reasonably prices, there are no toll roads, and Wisconsin is, in my opinion, generally a good place to live. The city I now live in has high property taxes but good services. There are, for instance, 14 bus lines within 3 blocks and a good branch library 1/2 mile away. Crime is low in my neighborhood. We get some utility from all the taxes we pay. I am ok with fairly well paid municipal workers. We also pay for the City buying quarter million dollar houses to provide for single mothers from Chicago, demographic school bussing, and the city's "department of forestry" planted an elm tree in front of my house I didn't want or have a say in choosing. The schools spends foolishly on facilities, $346 per auditorium seat, but I still voted for higher school taxes in the hope of maintaining good 3R-science education. Our property taxes in a very liberal city are about three times as high per square foot as our former house in rural less blue Wisconsin.

Wisconsin just elected the State Superintendent of Education, under whom common core was instituted and state achievement scores have since gone down, to become Governor. He is already promising higher road and other taxes. He replaces an idiot Republican Governor who emptied the State bank to bribe Foxxcon into building a plant in WI. Foxxcon is already reneging on how many jobs it plans to bring in.

Compared with bluer Illinois next door with its toll roads, unaffordable public pension commitments, corruption, extra regulations, and sky high taxes, Wisconsin is a paradise.

[Richard]

Hillary is stating that Abrams,Democrat candidate Georgia would have won if the election was fair.

No comment From Mr Sanders.

“If she had a fair election, she already would have won,” the former secretary of state said during a Tuesday event at the University of Texas’s LBJ School of Public Affairs.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hillary-c...162816343.html


She still just not get it.

[bust]

She had better not waste our time and suck any more air talking about running again.

Pam, Honky, Richard, Oladub: You'll love this:

Curtains for the Clintons
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/01/o...nton-tour.html

[oladub]

She had better not waste our time and suck any more air talking about running again.

Pam, Honky, Richard, Oladub: You'll love this:

Curtains for the Clintons
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/01/o...nton-tour.html

That was a good article. I highly respect Maureen Dowd and Kathy Noonan as inside the beltway writers. Maureen Dowd competely dissed the Clintons in your article
Curtains for the Clintons
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/01/o...nton-tour.html
Maureen Dowd's NY Times article seemed to make en effort to brush the Clintons out of the way to update the Democratic Party. Dowd wields a death dealing pen yet it is focused and not adverse to the Democratic Party. From her article, "I can’t fathom why the Clintons would make like aging rock stars and go on a tour of Canada and the U.S. at a moment when Democrats are hoping to break the stranglehold of their cloistered, superannuated leadership and exult in a mosaic of exciting new faces."

A companion NY Post article is The Obamas are "Becoming" a Billion Dollar Brand which begins, "The Obamas are “Becoming” — billionaires." https://nypost.com/2018/11/17/the-ob...-dollar-brand/

Related: It isn't just that some Democratic leaders, include Pelosi and Feinstein here, are acting like pigs at the trough. The Democratic Party, like the Republican Party, is for the rich although in more of an economic hacienda model sort of way with Silicon Valley moguls and silicon injected Hollywood figures overseeing their campesino labor caste friendlies. A contributing factor flipping so many rich suburban districts from R to D was that Trump's tax plan significantly increased the taxes of wealthy real estate owners.

Trump's Home Tax Changes Costing Votes in the Suburbs https://www.ft.com/content/76a753ca-...6-b9069bde0956
How Trump's Tax Cuts Hurt the GOP in America's Wealthy Suburbs https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump...143541623.html

It will be interesting to see how the Democratic Party's "exciting new faces" will navigate the Democratic Party's lurch to the rich and its fossil party leaders. How will Democrats get rid of Trump's home tax increases on the rich while saying the rich should pay more taxes? Perhaps Maoist like "thought examinations", already underway on campuses in diversity classes, could be expanded. "This process appealed to the guilt feeling of the educated; they had been living better than the peasants, and self-criticism tapped into this." -from Wild Swans, page 165, by Jung Chang -a memoir of a woman growing up in pre-Communist China

[bust]

How will Democrats get rid of Trump's home tax increases on the rich while saying the rich should pay more taxes?

Hopefully they won't. It's not true to say all Democrats don't support the idea. In fact, I suspect a majority of them do, as relatively few were affected.

In addition to Trump's position on H1-B visas, I also agree with his mortgage tax deduction limit. It's hard for me to think of much else. I'm on record on this forum saying that. Even as I wonder if it would be fairer for the mortgage tax deduction limit to be adjusted lower to reflect cheaper regional housing costs.

Relatively few democrats were affected, but few people missed the fact that the new, lower limit overwhelmingly affects parts of the country that tend to vote democratic.

It should go without saying: your housing dollar goes a lot further, on average, in red parts of the country than in blue. It's tough to find a 1BR apartment in Manhattan for $750,000. At 900 square feet this one is considered "spacious". In San Francisco you can get 750 square feet one block outside its drug and vice containment area [[with a 666 address at that!). Something about supply and demand.

[oladub]

Hopefully they won't. It's not true to say all Democrats don't support the idea. In fact, I suspect a majority of them do, as relatively few were affected.

In addition to Trump's position on H1-B visas, I also agree with his mortgage tax deduction limit. It's hard for me to think of much else. I'm on record on this forum saying that. Even as I wonder if it would be fairer for the mortgage tax deduction limit to be adjusted lower to reflect cheaper regional housing costs.

Relatively few democrats were affected, but few people missed the fact that the new, lower limit overwhelmingly affects parts of the country that tend to vote democratic.

It should go without saying: your housing dollar goes a lot further, on average, in red parts of the country than in blue. It's tough to find a 1BR apartment in Manhattan for $750,000. At 900 square feet this one is considered "spacious". In San Francisco you can get 750 square feet one block outside its drug and vice containment area [[with a 666 address at that!). Something about supply and demand.

bust, I agree with everything in your post but would add two notes. There are causes for supply and demand including government policies creating shortages and extra costs. There are, of course, other reasons including climate and a limited supply of land available in some desirable areas. The relatively few affected are rich and consequently have more political clout.

[GMan]

Well the new Democrat Socialist Party er...Democratic elect did not waste time in making a grab for power and taxpayers money:

https://news.grabien.com/story-ocasi...government-con

Think of the yellow vests.

She's hoping to get the "Three Chambers of Congress" to pass this after they topple Trump.

[oladub]

Well the new Democrat Socialist Party er...Democratic elect did not waste time in making a grab for power and taxpayers money:

https://news.grabien.com/story-ocasi...government-con

Think of the yellow vests.

She's hoping to get the "Three Chambers of Congress" to pass this after they topple Trump.

From a comment by Trevaniumex on the grabien link, "Her list reads like my Dear Santa list as a child. My favorite [[Ocasio-Cortez) quote "it would not be entirely funded by tax payers but by government , but also the Federal Reserve and other institutions ."

Let the clown show begin! It is interesting to know that Rep. Ocasio-Cortez will not just rely on taxpayers to fund her vision. It is comforting to know that the government and undisclosed other institutions will be expected to pitch in. She must have found out that the Federal Reserve has an electronic printing press to press into service too. That always works out so well.

One of Rep. Ocasio-Cortez' economic advisors is Stephanie Kelton who preaches that it is impossible for government to run out money. Professor Kelton was in turn influenced by a professor who said, “If you are the type of person who thinks money is important,”“then you are probably the same type of person who enjoys sitting in your basement and beating yourself with a rubber hose.” Ocasio-Cortez wants to make economic mania government policy.

Not to knock Ocasio-Cortez. Her 'I'm from a log cabin in the Bronx' cover story has at least as much credibility as Pocahontas' transition to Lizzy Sixpack. Remember Barack Obama's words, "I'm asking you to believe".

[Richard]

Nice classy move by Democrat Tlaib in saying “we are going to impeach that mother******”

It proves it will be a party of non government and based on a get Trump agenda.

[Maof]

Oh please, and what comes out of the mouth of the current sitting "president" is any better? He brought about a whole new way of politicking when he started running his campaign so you can thank him for that. Pretty sure Rasidha Tlaib isn't the first to call him that. She happened to be at a private event and oh well, she calls it like she sees it.

[Jimaz]

Trump lowers the vulgarity limbo bar to a depth that only he can stoop then Rashida masterfully steps over that same bar to show how easily she can trump Trump!

Because the vulgarity limbo bar has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to govern.

Trump unleashed feminine vulgarity. He activated women. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Chew on that for awhile.

Brilliant!

[Richard]

Oh please, and what comes out of the mouth of the current sitting "president" is any better? He brought about a whole new way of politicking when he started running his campaign so you can thank him for that. Pretty sure Rasidha Tlaib isn't the first to call him that. She happened to be at a private event and oh well, she calls it like she sees it.

Hey,is that kinda like being in a private locker room and calling it like one sees it?

[Richard]

Trump lowers the vulgarity limbo bar to a depth that only he can stoop then Rashida masterfully steps over that same bar to show how easily she can trump Trump!

Because the vulgarity limbo bar has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to govern.

Trump unleashed feminine vulgarity. He activated women. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Chew on that for awhile.

Brilliant!

So what you are saying is women are so weak that they need a man to activate them?

Hmmm,I was kinda under the impression that they could actually think for themselves,who would of thought they were incapable of free thought.

Sense Tlaib also received guff from her counterparts, I guess they are the same as Trump.

Thats the problem with you guys little newly elected progressive liberals,full of energy to change the world,until the reality of the Washington two step seeps in.

[Zacha341]

"Civility Can Start Again" When Democrats Take The House And Or The Senate

Lovely Tlaib represents Michigan, Detroit... SMH, double lovely.

So she can hawk up a spit longer and wider in the spitting contest?

How progressive, justified and liberating! I'm feeling empowered...... Perhaps she can attend/ speak at the upcoming DC Women's March?

Once you're in politics in the brave new world of social media your 'private' words at a private setting are rarely that. This Tlaib will now know *sarc*.

Do I support women having their voice? YES I DO. But must we slide so quickly and 'readily' into vulgarity to do so?

Is our power really activated/ advanced in doing so? Really?

Using that word is a bit rough IMO, but in the emerging social acceptance and in this case sacred 'tit for tat' [[limbo bar) context it is appropriate as ascribed.

After all Trump, trumps [[activates/ justifies behaviors) all!

Oh please, and what comes out of the mouth of the current sitting "president" is any better? He brought about a whole new way of politicking when he started running his campaign so you can thank him for that. Pretty sure Rasidha Tlaib isn't the first to call him that. She happened to be at a private event and oh well, she calls it like she sees it.

[oladub]

Trump lowers the vulgarity limbo bar to a depth that only he can stoop then Rashida masterfully steps over that same bar to show how easily she can trump Trump!

Because the vulgarity limbo bar has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to govern.

Trump unleashed feminine vulgarity. He activated women. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Chew on that for awhile.

Brilliant!

Democrats chose Rashida to represent them as their eloquent spokesperson. You're right about her trumping Trump in crudeness. The room full of Democrats where Rashida made her comments thought her comment very funny. It wasn't just the Detroit area people who elected her that endorsed her. No-one looked embarrassed. It must be part of the culture.

Trump did activate women too in other ways. A month before the 11/18 election, female unemployment declined to a 68 year low. The MSM didn't cover that as much as what Kavanaugh may or may not have done at a party in an unknown location when he was 17. Scorn probably has more to do with such reporting than record low unemployment rates. Anyway, now we have this new Democratic model of feminine grace not so different than Hillary or, as you suggested, Trump.

Women are winning in the Trump Economy -Real Clear Politics 10/18

[Zacha341]

And now let the justification and damage-control, etc begin:

[From a Detroiter] Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib should apologize for cursing out Trump...and here's why:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cong...ry?id=60160257
From article:
....her comments aren’t helpful to the Democratic party in bridging divides and accomplishing what I know she wants to accomplish. In order to achieve success in politics, one must bring consensus to get the common good, and this kind of talk goes in the opposite direction of that. If she really wants the Democrats to succeed in Congress, and pass public policy, then her party is going to need the support of people who don’t feel the way she does. She is going to have to be part of building bridges with people who don’t think like her or talk in that way. And to that goal, her language sets her back.

Pelosi reacts to Tlaib's impeachment comment: 'Nothing worse than the President has said'
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/04/polit...ent/index.html

Dems livid after Tlaib vows to ‘impeach the motherf—er’
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...omment-1081370

[Honky Tonk]

And now let the justification and damage-control, etc begin:

[From a Detroiter] Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib should apologize for cursing out Trump...and here's why:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cong...ry?id=60160257
From article:
....her comments aren’t helpful to the Democratic party in bridging divides and accomplishing what I know she wants to accomplish. In order to achieve success in politics, one must bring consensus to get the common good, and this kind of talk goes in the opposite direction of that. If she really wants the Democrats to succeed in Congress, and pass public policy, then her party is going to need the support of people who don’t feel the way she does. She is going to have to be part of building bridges with people who don’t think like her or talk in that way. And to that goal, her language sets her back.

Pelosi reacts to Tlaib's impeachment comment: 'Nothing worse than the President has said'
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/04/polit...ent/index.html

Dems livid after Tlaib vows to ‘impeach the motherf—er’
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...omment-1081370

What a class act. I'm glad she's found a useful way to spend my tax dollars. I'll be sure to vote for her again.

[Zacha341]

^^^ It's going to be an even more fun ride! I'm kinda digging the direct approach taken. Dispensing the whole oblique agenda stuff.

Still, she sure showed her hand fast! That alone unwise. Trump does it all the time in his hasty tweets.

Maybe she needs a copy of the Art of War-ebook version! The Godfather offers a bit of advice here and there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqMYuUVliD8

Anyway as we look back the usual of politicians making promises like pie crusts. Made to be broken! Whatever.

Rep.-Elect Rashida Tlaib Says She Will Work To Get Trump 'To Follow The Law'
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018...ress-ice-trump