Q Line "Constructive Criticism"

[emu steve]

This thing is a joke. People keep talking about how you can use it for tigers games or to go to a museum... That is not what sustains public transportation. Commuters do. And the qline is so short, that you probably won't find many people who just so happen to live at one end and work at the opposite end of the line. If it were longer, you'd find more people who do.

Even if you do live and work along the line, it doesn't you help you avoid congestion, you have to wait for it to arrive and it's only saving you a couple miles of driving.

I know this option wasn't really on the table, but to be useful it needs to go further, needs FAR fewer stops per mile and needs to be able to bypass congestion via dedicated lane.

My view on it has evolved based on what I've read.

I still believe it is a short-haul system designed to move say a downtown worker to say his VA doctor at the VAMC or someone at WSU to downtown or the new school of business building, etc. etc. Those people aren't going to take their car from one parking lot to another and back to the original lot. They will take QLine or some other means of transportation.

What I see now happening is encouraging the so-called 'in-fill' development.

E.

[Bham1982]

Some info seems to have come out recently.

130 people bought annual passes.
741 bought a monthly pass.


Total revenue just under $1 million,... [[fares and grant money)
Of which,... $ 417,050 was from fares.
Expenses = $ 5,800,000.

I would like to see the spin on these numbers. I mean, I'm a DYes skeptic, and even I wouldn't have predicted such numbers.

400k in fare revenue? Does that even cover the insurance, or the cleaning bill?

Are MI taxpayers on the hook for expenses or are our corporate overlords paying the bill in perpetuity?

[EGrant]

10 years of operating costs were included in the initial funding, which is a mix of private and public funds as we know.

[emu steve]

I would like to see the spin on these numbers. I mean, I'm a DYes skeptic, and even I wouldn't have predicted such numbers.

400k in fare revenue? Does that even cover the insurance, or the cleaning bill?

Are MI taxpayers on the hook for expenses or are our corporate overlords paying the bill in perpetuity?

The next poster answered your question about operating reserves.

As far as what constitutes success????

ONE metric is ridership and its sibling, revenues.

That said, I'm not sure this was every about big ridership numbers or breaking even revenue wise. Operating expenses were never that great.

To me, it is a service paid for by folks like Gilbert, Ilitch, Pensche, etc. etc. who saw value in the project for various reasons mostly moving people along a 3+ mile route.

One of the benefits which is not measured with a metric is the excitement, PR, etc. etc. which the project brought to that part of Detroit.

It had minuses [[it hurt business while construction was going on), but had a lot of other positives such as a very nice Woodward Ave.

It's hard to measure how much development was encouraged to happen by the project. Five years ago The Scott wasn't even thought of. Something encouraged those developers that Woodward Ave. is now a hot spot for residential development.

As Gilbert said this week: Think BIG. Not sure this is 'Big' by most standards but it still produced a lot of excitement and PR.

[emu steve]

I'm going to use this post to specifically address a comment B'ham made months [[2017 or even 2016) about sports fans using it.

He suggested or mocked, or whatever, that suburbanites would flock to some 'uptown' station, park their car and QLine to LCA, Comerica, etc. Kind of like a service for non-Detroiters who he seemingly suggested were interloopers.

That really hasn't happened much and I think I know why:

Think of the difference between driving from OC to downtown to work and driving from OC to Comerica, LCA, FF, etc.

Driving downtown to work is usually solo [[one person, one car).

What happens when going to a sporting event: Usually 2 or 3 or 4 persons go in a SUV and pay say $20 bucks to park at the venue.

Does it make sense for that group to park say near WSU and pay 2, 3 or 4 fares? If someone is spending say $150 for four Tigers' tickets are they trying to save $10 on transportation parking???? Probably not. They will figure that $20 for parking = $5 added to the cost of each ticket. Big deal. Skip a beer or two and that covers parking.

One thing we seeming forget about parking at SPORTING EVENTS is that the cost of parking is spread usually over say 2 - 4 persons. So $30 - 40 sounds like a lot for me [[going solo in Detroit), but if it is split by 3 or 4 attendees then it isn't too much a factor.

In D.C. it cost me $15 to pay RT subway + subway parking to go solo to watch the Wizards.

If I go with someone else, I can drive and pay $12 - 15 parking and SAVE money compared to 2 subway fares + subway parking.

[Bigdd]

Interesting but very counter-intuitive.

At worst, adding a transportation option should have no effect.

Otherwise, it encourages folks to talk small trips from one point to another that they otherwise wouldn't take [[e.g., maybe during lunch hour or after work before going home).

Are those business owners saying they lost business during construction and haven't regained it?

Like you, I also thought it would have helped those along the line [[except where it is against the curb,.. in which case it eliminates your parking). But the first owner said it hurt business and I didn't ask for details.

The other owner had a Q-Line stop right in front of his place,.. and he said it made it much harder to turn into his lot [[which I noticed,.. I wasn't sure it was even legal what I had to do to get there,... going around the end of the rail island and turning more than 90 degrees to get into his lot).

He then told be he had season tickets [[or was it a suite) at LCA. I replied that the Q-Line must be great for that. I mean he has his own well-lit parking lot like 30' from a stop. And his employees are still there late into the night,.. there's security cameras, etc, etc. A dream scenario for that I would think.

He said he tried it a few times,.. his wife even came down and parked her car in the lot next to his, and they went out to the stop to wait for a train. After 20+ minutes with no train they got in a car drove, and paid for parking.

I asked if there wasn't an app like with the buses so you knew when one was coming. He said there wasn't,.. and that you just never have any idea when one is going to come by.

If it's still like that,... that's bad. OWNING a safe lot right in front of a stop and you STILL don't use it?

I don't know how long ago that was,.. or if it's a lot better now,... or if the system has an app like the buses by now. Which is why I asked.

[detmsp]

My view on it has evolved based on what I've read.

I still believe it is a short-haul system designed to move say a downtown worker to say his VA doctor at the VAMC or someone at WSU to downtown or the new school of business building, etc. etc. Those people aren't going to take their car from one parking lot to another and back to the original lot. They will take QLine or some other means of transportation.

What I see now happening is encouraging the so-called 'in-fill' development.

E.

That sounds like a reasonable use case for the QLine. But someone taking the QLine once in a while to get to the doctor really pales in comparison to commuters. 10 rides a week to and from work plus the occasional extra ride for the doctor's appointment, a tigers game, etc. That is who sustains transit systems.

[emu steve]

That sounds like a reasonable use case for the QLine. But someone taking the QLine once in a while to get to the doctor really pales in comparison to commuters. 10 rides a week to and from work plus the occasional extra ride for the doctor's appointment, a tigers game, etc. That is who sustains transit systems.

Agree. I left some thoughts hanging though.

When we first discussed QLine one thing we discussed is whether it would encourage more residential building along the line and it has.

Using my favorite example, The Scott. Someone can live there and take the QLine to a downtown job.

Or someone can live downtown and take the QLine to WSU, the medical centers, New Center, etc.

Simply, there should be enough Detroiters who live somewhere between New Center along Woodward and downtown and live more than a 1/2 mile from where they work to account for say 1 - 2K RTs a day. Most of those living along the line aren't retirees or otherwise not employed.

If I worked downtown, I would probably look at The Scott and QLine to work. I wouldn't want to deal with traffic and parking.

It might be we won't know the full impact until more residential is built along the line, especially south of Mack/MLKjr [[and New Center) within the next 5 years.

[Bigdd]

When we first discussed QLine one thing we discussed is whether it would encourage more residential building along the line and it has.

Using my favorite example, The Scott.

Simply, there should be enough Detroiters who live somewhere between New Center along Woodward and downtown...............

That's the thing with light rail.

It requires high population density to work. That's why the houses near Woodward and other major lines of the old trolley system are so close together [[rows of duplexes all like 8' apart, even though that's a major risk when there's a fire).

The value of a home was largely affected by how long of a walk the husband had to take to get to and from the nearest trolley stop.

Then came cars and the population spread out. By the late 40's the system wasn't used much,.. and it was so empty by the early 50's that they got rid of a system that was long since paid for. [[And GM collusion etc)

To make it work again you need high pop density and perhaps a land czar,.. who can determine what is and is not allowed to be along Woodward. You also need lots of people willing to live in high-rise buildings, where they have to park elsewhere [[if they own a car at all), do lots of walking, and ride elevators to get to their apartment. [[Get to your car or the Q-Line and forget something? You now need to walk back across the street and back to your building,.. go through the lobby,.. press the button and wait for an elevator, ride that to your floor and walk down the hall of your apartment,... and reverse all of that). That's a LOT different than when I forget something on my counter 3' from my the door of my attached garage.

This all happens A LOT in places where land is hyper-expensive,.. like in Manhattan. But MOST Detroit property is silly cheap. So rail is going to be an up-hill battle,... at least for quite a while.

[emu steve]

That's the thing with light rail.

It requires high population density to work. That's why the houses near Woodward and other major lines of the old trolley system are so close together [[rows of duplexes all like 8' apart, even though that's a major risk when there's a fire).

The value of a home was largely affected by how long of a walk the husband had to take to get to and from the nearest trolley stop.

Then came cars and the population spread out. By the late 40's the system wasn't used much,.. and it was so empty by the early 50's that they got rid of a system that was long since paid for. [[And GM collusion etc)

To make it work again you need high pop density and perhaps a land czar,.. who can determine what is and is not allowed to be along Woodward. You also need lots of people willing to live in high-rise buildings, where they have to park elsewhere [[if they own a car at all), do lots of walking, and ride elevators to get to their apartment. [[Get to your car or the Q-Line and forget something? You now need to walk back across the street and back to your building,.. go through the lobby,.. press the button and wait for an elevator, ride that to your floor and walk down the hall of your apartment,... and reverse all of that). That's a LOT different than when I forget something on my counter 3' from my the door of my attached garage.

This all happens A LOT in places where land is hyper-expensive,.. like in Manhattan. But MOST Detroit property is silly cheap. So rail is going to be an up-hill battle,... at least for quite a while.

I completely agree.

Rail is 'sexy' kind of the mark of a neat, desirable, etc. etc. city but it just wouldn't work in Detroit.

If Woodward was lined with big office buildings and apartment buildings from 8 mile to downtown then it would, but last time I drove don't Woodward [[last year) that isn't what I saw.

[emu steve]

And a quick pivot to HQ2, I think we can see how Detroit was NOT a good candidate for HQ2 which wants a good mass transit system and how Detroit is not a good candidate to have at least light rail [[or heavier).

One could run a light or heavy rail system down Woodward from 8 mile to the river and the ridership activity from [[inside) 8 mile to New Center would be minimal.

The only way it would work if they built parking garages say at the fair grounds site and folks from OC drove there and dropped off their vehicles and railed to downtown.

Some time I might look at Seattle and maybe a few other similar cities [[ignoring the northeast cities which have had heavy rail for many, many years or decades) any see what kind of ridership numbers they put up.

As discussed many times, there is potential for QLine down E. Jefferson and up Michigan Ave [[assuming everything there happens in Corktown) but those areas, like Midtown and New Center are extensions of downtown.

[Canadian Visitor]

There are many fair criticisms for Q Line. They range from design to service level to extent/size of system.

What is not fair the idea that [[gasp) the system does not recover costs.

Putting aside that public transit never does in the U.S. [[or even Canada with only Toronto's GO Transit commuter rail coming close, recovering about 90% of its operating cost via the fare box). Toronto's TTC [[subway/bus/streetcar) recovers around 70%, everything else, everywhere else considerably less.

Let's not just lay this on public transit. The roads and highways don't cover their costs either. Even toll roads or bridges rarely do, at most they recover 'direct' costs without considering things like accident response by emergency services, costs related to pollution/health or incidental traffic to local roads. Regardless the bulk of the road/highway network in North America is toll free. To ask transit to out compete free is a bit much.

Private developers/stores also subsidize cars whenever they offer free parking or parking which isn't sold at a cost plus normal mark-up.

Consider what highway travel would cost if it were privately owned, for profit, like Toronto's Highway 407.

https://www.407etr.com/en/tolls/rate...-complete.html

In rush hour w/no transponder, about $9 one-way.

That's without paying for parking.

A reasonable ask for Q Line, as is, in year one is about 20% revenue recovery, which is not far off what's happening.

With more frequent and reliable service and expanded hours, 30-40% is realistic.

More than that will not only require a larger network, and better service from other public transit providers, it will require higher parking and driving costs.

Back to the Toronto comparison, dense downtown, extensive frequent service, downtown parking averaging over $25 per day, lots of traffic and gas at $1.30 per litre [[closing in on $5 per gallon) and still the TTC recovers only 70% of its costs through the fare box; and that doesn't include major cap-x.

Keep the critiques fair.

[MicrosoftFan]

Metro Detroit's population density is fair enough to support LRT. Dallas currently has a system with 5 lines, 2 streetcars, and a commuter rail that span over 150 miles in total-and with less density than Metro Detroit. In addition, Dallas isn't exactly known for having a centralized employment center. Office parks span the suburbs and have more jobs than Downtown, just like Detroit.

Now, Dallas' system also has an abysmal riders-per-mile, but that's not the point. The point is that you don't necessarily need a dense metro area to support light rail. Sure, you do need to have some dense areas, usually destination spots [[downtown), but the point of origin can be at a park-and-ride in the suburbs.

It's time to catch up to the rest of America, even cities that are our peers in density and development [[St. Louis, Cleveland, Minneapolis).

[detmsp]

Dallas currently has a system with 5 lines, 2 streetcars, and a commuter rail that span over 150 miles in total-and with less density than Metro Detroit. In addition, Dallas isn't exactly known for having a centralized employment center. Office parks span the suburbs and have more jobs than Downtown, just like Detroit.

Now, Dallas' system also has an abysmal riders-per-mile, but that's not the point. The point is that you don't necessarily need a dense metro area to support light rail.

What? I know nothing about Dallas's lightrail lines, but what I'm hearing from you is "Dallas has one with similar density. It doesn't get much use, but the fact that they have it proves that it was a good decision."

You could similarly look at someone who is fairly poor, but blows their money on a fancy car and say "see? You don't need to have money for it to be a good decision to lease an Escalade"

[emu steve]

I read all the comments and have this question:

Would you favor or not favor a light rail [[or heavy, though, very unlikely) with its terminus at the fair grounds and downtown running along Woodward?

What this would do, in my opinion, is mostly serve OC residents who work [[or attend sporting events) downtown.

How would residents of the city of Detroit feel about it?

Would enough Detroiters get on at 7 mile, 6 mile, etc. and take it to their destination in New Center, Midtown or downtown???

[MicrosoftFan]

I read all the comments and have this question:

Would you favor or not favor a light rail [[or heavy, though, very unlikely) with its terminus at the fair grounds and downtown running along Woodward?

What this would do, in my opinion, is mostly serve OC residents who work [[or attend sporting events) downtown.

How would residents of the city of Detroit feel about it?

Would enough Detroiters get on at 7 mile, 6 mile, etc. and take it to their destination in New Center, Midtown or downtown???

It would have to go further than State Fair. If someone who lives in Troy, Birmingham drives to State Fair, what's stopping them from going the rest of the way in their car to downtown? I think Downtown Royal Oak is a better ending point, + an Amtrak Connection. Possibly to Somerset or Big Beaver/I-75 after that.

[MicrosoftFan]

What? I know nothing about Dallas's lightrail lines, but what I'm hearing from you is "Dallas has one with similar density. It doesn't get much use, but the fact that they have it proves that it was a good decision."

It is actually utilized fairly well, with around 90,000 riders per day and increasing to 100,000. However, for a system of its size [[~90 miles) it should be getting 200-250k a day. In Detroit, we could expect a system of this size to get around 175k, as the areas our lines would serve would be more dense than Metro Dallas.

Not that a 90 mile LRT system is coming to Detroit anytime soon.

[Jason]

The problem with extending it to 8 mile or to anywhere else is that it takes over 20 minutes to get through the current line alone. If it took another half hour to get to 8 mile, and if you wait 10 minutes [[which isn't bad at all for light rail) for the next train, a 15-20 minute car ride has become an hour long light rail ride. I really don't see how it'd be possible to make it competitive with anything else.

There's also the very serious issue that labor costs are most of the operating costs. The current slow speeds and low ridership are happening with pretty frequent trains at peak times. What happens when they reduce frequency or hours in order to save money?


The People Mover is 3 miles and takes 17 minutes to do 13 stations. Replicating the Q-Line route would be about the same length but only 9 stations. Each People Mover station adds about 1 minute directly, and adds more time indirectly by preventing the train from reaching full speed [[60 mph). The current loop is also curved which also slows it down. The People Mover would do the route in 10 minutes or less, which matches normal driving and beats rush hour driving. There are enough People Mover trains for a max frequency of about 4.5 minutes [[2.25 minutes if you unpaired the cars) for an expanded system, at no additional labor cost. People Mover would have been so much faster that forcing Woodward bus passengers to transfer would be faster than letting them finish their trip on the bus. I blab a lot about the People Mover but this was seriously such a massive lost opportunity.

[313WX]

Why would anyone do this when the tracks to run a commuter rail service to the airport and Ann Arbor already exists? All they need to do is build the stations and buy/lease the trains.

I don't know how active the line is, but part of the issue may be that the commuter raik will be competing with freight traffic, depending on how frequently it runs.

And then there's the issue of possible cost overruns. If enough people don't use the line frequently, the ticket prices will have to be extremely expensive in order for it to pay for itself [[depending on the speed).

[emu steve]

BTW, if folks are interested in a new light rail system, 21 stations, 16.2 miles, etc. is over 2.5B.

A heavy rail system with underground stations would be... like super, super expensive. I doubt Austin would go underground.

[[BTW, one of the great things about having underground line/stations is that customer are not outside exposed to the elements.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.199042425357

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Line_[[Maryland)

[Lowell]

The Qline has been such a flawed idea from the start. It's as if no one learned from the People Mover that unless it is connected to or a part of an effective larger system it is doomed to being a long-running massive liability.

Anything less than a Detroit to Pontiac subway should be not be considered.

Meanwhile, a fleet of super-cushioned suspension buses with comfortable seating and things like wi-fi, favored right of way and stop light timing could work for a fraction of the cost.

[iheartthed]

I don't know how active the line is, but part of the issue may be that the commuter raik will be competing with freight traffic, depending on how frequently it runs.

This is something that every commuter rail system in the country has to deal with. Even the Long Island Railroad, which is the busiest commuter rail system in the country, has to share tracks with freight trains.

[EGrant]

Meanwhile, a fleet of super-cushioned suspension buses with comfortable seating and things like wi-fi, favored right of way and stop light timing could work for a fraction of the cost.

Pair that with a real, comprehensive marketing campaign and you have a recipe for success. Busses are cheaper, more flexible and more reliable, but there is a stigma associated with them, especially here. Even using buses in a dedicated lane [[separated by a curb) would be far cheaper than 3 miles of QLine.

[emu steve]

The Qline has been such a flawed idea from the start. It's as if no one learned from the People Mover that unless it is connected to or a part of an effective larger system it is doomed to being a long-running massive liability.

Anything less than a Detroit to Pontiac subway should be not be considered.

Meanwhile, a fleet of super-cushioned suspension buses with comfortable seating and things like wi-fi, favored right of way and stop light timing could work for a fraction of the cost.

Curious what would be the proposed route?

As I suggested above, this concept is used in the D.C. area and the buses are 'express buses', that is, they will pick up passengers at a few stops and then not have any pickup/discharges until near the final destinations.

E.g., does 75 have HOV [[carpool, bus, etc.) lanes? Could buses run on 75 and then exit at 94 and then make stops along Woodward every mile to downtown?

[Lowell]

I say start with a Pontiac to Downtown Detroit Route with stops equivalent to a subway's allowing free transfers to other buses, or the Qline and People Mover, for any distances in between. Mix in an hourly express bus that leap frogs some lesser stops or runs routes expressway routes as you suggest. Research results and adjust. Embark on a bus de-stigmatization marketing campaign.

Curious what would be the proposed route?

As I suggested above, this concept is used in the D.C. area and the buses are 'express buses', that is, they will pick up passengers at a few stops and then not have any pickup/discharges until near the final destinations.

E.g., does 75 have HOV [[carpool, bus, etc.) lanes? Could buses run on 75 and then exit at 94 and then make stops along Woodward every mile to downtown?