Q Line "Constructive Criticism"

[MicrosoftFan]

On the “Detroit is larger than Toronto when it ran its first trains” could be used in an Atlanta or Washington context as well. Both cities built their metros when they were smaller than detroit in the 1970s. And we all know the DC suburbs and pretty much all of Atlanta have similar densities to Detroit.

Also- no streetcars more than ~5 miles from Downtown, and no rapid transit for long distances in under 5-7k density per mile areas.

[Bham1982]

GO started, in 1967, when Toronto was not yet a million people; and Detroit was the larger metropolitan area.

Which has nothing to do with anything. Relative size of metro area has zero to do with viability of commuter rail.

Put another way, Metro Detroit today is substantially larger than Toronto was when GO ran its first trains.

Who cares? LA has 19 million people and only 35k people ride its commuter rail system. Spanish metros of 1 million people have multiples higher ridership.

And Detroit did have commuter rail back then, long before Toronto. It ended because no one rode it, even when the region was much more centralized.

Detroit does have sufficient central employment to justify such a service, provided, the stations can be sensibly located, and appropriate feeder and connecting services put in place.

LOL, no. Detroit does not have central employment, nor any other precondition for commuter rail. In fact, it has one of the most sprawled commute shares on the planet.

Toronto, in contrast, checks all boxes, has centralized employment, extreme congestion and major income-to-housing challenges. There is absolutely no demand for commuter rail in Detroit ; in Toronto, it's an essential service.

[MicrosoftFan]

Detroit does not have central employment, so would a Southfield-Dearborn suburb-to-suburb line in the median of M39 work? Would connect Oakland County to Dearborn and vice versa, considering they are 2 major suburban job centers.

[Canadian Visitor]

Detroit does not have central employment, so would a Southfield-Dearborn suburb-to-suburb line in the median of M39 work? Would connect Oakland County to Dearborn and vice versa, considering they are 2 major suburban job centers.

Could we back this up?

Does Detroit have city-centre focused employment in the way NYC or Toronto do? No.

But the idea that employment is somehow inconsequential in the core or insufficient to support public transportation options is bizarre.

The Detroit Central Business District, the one square mile at the heart of Detroit, has over 85,000 jobs.

There aren't many nodes with comparable employment density in the area.

That's not counting immediately adjacent areas like Midtown, New Centre etc.

If those were counted you get well past 150,000 jobs, in an area of 7.2sq miles.

If commuter rail attracted a whopping 3% modal share, that would 4,500 people which would be 3 full 12-car, double-decker trains inbound in the AM period. Assuming more modest sized, and cheaper rolling stock, it would easily support six inbound trains.

Likewise, if all other public transit combined, attracted only 10% modal share, that's 15,000 people moved each morning.

Yes, that's a tiny fraction of what happens in NYC or Toronto etc. But its more than enough for a reasonable public spend, for reasonable public benefit.

Worth noting is Downtown Detroit is averaging more than 3,000 net new jobs per year growth. Were that sustained through even the next 5 years, these numbers get that much more viable.

http://detroitsevenpointtwo.com/reso...INAL_LoRes.pdf

[Canadian Visitor]

I should add that doesn't account for any outbound traffic from downtown area's 35,000 residents, nor does it account for crosstown traffic that could be served by such a route.

[MicrosoftFan]

Could we back this up?

Does Detroit have city-centre focused employment in the way NYC or Toronto do? No.

But the idea that employment is somehow inconsequential in the core or insufficient to support public transportation options is bizarre.

The Detroit Central Business District, the one square mile at the heart of Detroit, has over 85,000 jobs.

There aren't many nodes with comparable employment density in the area.

That's not counting immediately adjacent areas like Midtown, New Centre etc.

If those were counted you get well past 150,000 jobs, in an area of 7.2sq miles.

If commuter rail attracted a whopping 3% modal share, that would 4,500 people which would be 3 full 12-car, double-decker trains inbound in the AM period. Assuming more modest sized, and cheaper rolling stock, it would easily support six inbound trains.

Likewise, if all other public transit combined, attracted only 10% modal share, that's 15,000 people moved each morning.

Yes, that's a tiny fraction of what happens in NYC or Toronto etc. But its more than enough for a reasonable public spend, for reasonable public benefit.

Worth noting is Downtown Detroit is averaging more than 3,000 net new jobs per year growth. Were that sustained through even the next 5 years, these numbers get that much more viable.

http://detroitsevenpointtwo.com/reso...INAL_LoRes.pdf

Outside of NY the highest percentage of commuters who use public transit is Washington, which has a super high concentration of federal government jobs in the city center, at 30% ish. Next up would be Chicago and SF.

Among cities who have recently expanded their transit systems and have a highly dispersed job market, I can only think of maybe Portland and Denver being successful. Also worth pointing out that the WES commuter rail line in Portland has really low ridership compared to the MAX LRT Westside lines that run nearby.

[Dent]

QLine, Detroit MI.

[emu steve]

Outside of NY the highest percentage of commuters who use public transit is Washington, which has a super high concentration of federal government jobs in the city center, at 30% ish. Next up would be Chicago and SF.

Among cities who have recently expanded their transit systems and have a highly dispersed job market, I can only think of maybe Portland and Denver being successful. Also worth pointing out that the WES commuter rail line in Portland has really low ridership compared to the MAX LRT Westside lines that run nearby.

Certainly true about D.C. We have a very, very large employment base in downtown [[and across the river at the Pentagon) but also throughout the entire metro area.

D.C., to me, is a model city of how it developed over decades [[centuries) in downtown and then came suburbanization but when the subway came it incorporated both the downtown, 'uptowns', suburbs, etc.

At its best days, which seem past, the D.C. area [[WMATA to be exact) subway system could count on 750K daily weekday trips.

Easy to live in the 'burbs and get to employment, universities, hospitals, etc. in D.C. OR live in D.C and get to same in the suburbs. E.g., easy to live in D.C. and take the subway to the University of Maryland.

One could, but it would be a long commute, live out by FedEx stadium [[Largo, Md) and take the silver line, without transferring say 30 miles, to Tysons Corner, Va. for work.

Or a college student at University of Maryland can easily take the subway to Reagan airport in Va.

The subway system was designed around the D.C. area as it was and now development is following where the subway system has gone [[think what is happening near Dulles airport).

https://www.wmata.com/schedules/maps...System-Map.pdf

[Bham1982]

Outside of NY the highest percentage of commuters who use public transit is Washington, which has a super high concentration of federal government jobs in the city center, at 30% ish. Next up would be Chicago and SF.

Yes. Job concentration is probably the biggest factor in relative transit usage. Detroit will never have high transit usage as long as like 4% of metro jobs are in the city center.

Putting aside NYC, which is on a different level, DC, SF, Chi, Boston and Philly are the next most transit-oriented U.S. cities. They also happen to have the next most concentrated employment.

Toronto has very concentrated employment compared to U.S. cities, so, not surprisingly, has high transit usage for U.S. standards [[though there are other Canada-specific factors in play).

And I don't care how much you spend, you aren't getting high transit ridership if you don't have concentrated employment. LA has spent countless megabillions, yet overall transit share has dropped, and the commuter rail system only carries 35k weekday passengers in a region of 19 million.

[emu steve]

Yes. Job concentration is probably the biggest factor in relative transit usage. Detroit will never have high transit usage as long as like 4% of metro jobs are in the city center.

Putting aside NYC, which is on a different level, DC, SF, Chi, Boston and Philly are the next most transit-oriented U.S. cities. They also happen to have the next most concentrated employment.

Toronto has very concentrated employment compared to U.S. cities, so, not surprisingly, has high transit usage for U.S. standards [[though there are other Canada-specific factors in play).

And I don't care how much you spend, you aren't getting high transit ridership if you don't have concentrated employment. LA has spent countless megabillions, yet overall transit share has dropped, and the commuter rail system only carries 35k weekday passengers in a region of 19 million.

I agree with B'1982.

Employment has to be concentrated and in Detroit it isn't.

My whole experience with mass transit is pretty simple:

D.C.'s system of public transportation is: get to a subway stop via car, bus, etc. and take the subway to employment and most walk from the subway stop to their place of employment.

[MicrosoftFan]

Besides Southfield and Dearborn where are other suburban job concentrations?

[Bham1982]

Besides Southfield and Dearborn where are other suburban job concentrations?

Troy, Auburn Hills, Farmington Hills, Warren Tech, I-275 corridor. Would be pretty tough to retrofit these areas for PT.

[MicrosoftFan]

1. Troy might be workable. Rapid Transit down I-75 with circulator buses running through office complexes. Also running down Big Beaver. Could theoretically work, turning into a Tyson’s-Corner like job center.

2. Auburn Hills is *maybe* workable if you have a line that goes from Oakland U up to Chrysler HQ and GLC.

3. Farmington Hills- it’s possible to have an I-696 line and have circulator buses again, but where are these commuters coming from?

4. Warren Tech- run a line down the railroad tracks between Mound and Van Dyke. Would work pretty well with a park and ride at 18 mile.

5. I-275 corridor- the median is wide enough for BRT i suppose, and lord knows Ford Road is crowded enough. Could support some kind of rapid transit parallel to Ford Road before branching south to Airport and north to I-696 interchange with park and ride.

The problem then is that there isn’t enough money to fund all of these lines. You’d have to pick and choose.

[MicrosoftFan]

Here is a map of all the jobs in the metro area. As you can see, Bham got it pretty accurate as far as where jobs are.

[Atticus]

I just wish we could break up the whole commuter rail mindset, and invest those resources into these two “transit” concepts:

1- Build a light rail system from the two DTW airport terminals to Downtown, with stops specifically in Dearborn and Henry Ford Museum complex. Providing a quicker downtown to airport transit option that is not a bus is probably the regions biggest need economically. This light rail also could serve the downtown tourist wishing to visit Greenfield Village.

2- Rather than focus on commuter rail, spend the same money and effort on more frequent Amtrak service per day. It is the same route anyway, and adding Amtrak trains during the commuter hours could create a de facto Commuter service anyway, should someone want to use it that way.

[[And I am also a big fan of the BRT on Gratiot, Michigan, Grand River), as I think it provides the biggest bang for the buck in helping low income folks out.

[MicrosoftFan]

I just wish we could break up the whole commuter rail mindset, and invest those resources into these two “transit” concepts:

1- Build a light rail system from the two DTW airport terminals to Downtown, with stops specifically in Dearborn and Henry Ford Museum complex. Providing a quicker downtown to airport transit option that is not a bus is probably the regions biggest need economically. This light rail also could serve the downtown tourist wishing to visit Greenfield Village.

2- Rather than focus on commuter rail, spend the same money and effort on more frequent Amtrak service per day. It is the same route anyway, and adding Amtrak trains during the commuter hours could create a de facto Commuter service anyway, should someone want to use it that way.

[[And I am also a big fan of the BRT on Gratiot, Michigan, Grand River), as I think it provides the biggest bang for the buck in helping low income folks out.

Isnt Amtrak supposed to be operating at 110mph between Kalamazoo and Ann Arbor by the end of the year?

[Atticus]

Isnt Amtrak supposed to be operating at 110mph between Kalamazoo and Ann Arbor by the end of the year?

It is in places. I guess the point is, the
Rails and Stations are already there. Rather than subsidize commuter rail that follows the same route, just subsidize some more Amtrak trains instead. Greater benefit for more people that way, and better ridership numbers too.

[Bigdd]

So how is Q-Line doing?

I've spoken to business owners along the route,.. and they say business is down because of it.

Q-Line themselves refuses to release any ridership numbers when you call,.. [[which I suppose is OK as they are a private entity),... BUT, they do operate on, and clutter OUR streets. It's perhaps because of that,.. it's in their deal they have to release some numbers at least once a year.

Some info seems to have come out recently.

130 people bought annual passes.
741 bought a monthly pass.


Total revenue just under $1 million,... [[fares and grant money)
Of which,... $ 417,050 was from fares.
Expenses = $ 5,800,000.

So if we figure that the $417k in fares would double this year [[where riders have to pay all year),.. that still represents a loss of about $4.4 million a year.

Ridership was 4,322 - 4,660 per day when it was free,.. but fell to 2,700 a month from November to March of 18 when riders had to pay. Hard to say how much of that is weather,.. and how much is the newness wearing off combined with having to pay. I suppose we'll have to wait another year to find out.


The good news is,.. wait times during peak hours fell from 19 minutes to 10 minutes.

Who here has been using it? How's is it?

[restoretheroar]

I have attempted to use it 4 times - all as novelty to go from bar to bar, restaurant to restaurant, restaurant to arena, concert to restaurant in midtown, etc.
1st experience - during free period - waited at Grand Circus for 20 min. never came - walked up to LCA station thinking we maybe catch it en route to midtown to eat, finally comes - was full but people don't know how to use it - crowded where doors open and open in the ends but people wouldn't move to make room. Ended up walking.
2. Tried to go from Compuware north to midtown during free period - never showed in 20 min. Instead walked to another bar.
3. Paid for 4 passengers to go from Grand Circus to LCA with friends from Grand Rapids in town. Saw train stalled down on Woodward because of car parked in the lanes - so had to tow it. Ended up walking - train was still parked down Woodward by the time we finished walk.
4. Paid for 2 passengers - waited 20 min. to go from LCA downtown - ended up taking Lyft from designated pick up area at arena.

So 0 for 4 for me. And the closest time I got to riding it I felt it was a faster to walk the half mile we needed to go

[drjeff]

I use it frequently. It's very convenient for me to get from midtown to downtown and back. I haven't had any problems in months.

[DetroitSoldier]

I use it a few times a week. I've never waited more than 10ish minutes. Purchasing passes with the mobile app is so simple. I do it as I am walking to the station, then jump on and go. More people should utilize it for regular transit. If you live in midtown and work downtown, or vice versa it is perfect.

[DetroitGuy423]

I used it to get from Grand Circus down to the Courthouse during the winter months. Never waited more than a few minutes and it was easier than walking in the cold and slush. Paying on the mobile app is really easy. I'll probably still use it in the summer if the wait time is low and I don't feel like walking.

[iheartthed]

1- Build a light rail system from the two DTW airport terminals to Downtown, with stops specifically in Dearborn and Henry Ford Museum complex. Providing a quicker downtown to airport transit option that is not a bus is probably the regions biggest need economically. This light rail also could serve the downtown tourist wishing to visit Greenfield Village.

Why would anyone do this when the tracks to run a commuter rail service to the airport and Ann Arbor already exists? All they need to do is build the stations and buy/lease the trains.

[emu steve]

So how is Q-Line doing?

I've spoken to business owners along the route,.. and they say business is down because of it...

Interesting but very counter-intuitive.

At worst, adding a transportation option should have no effect.

Otherwise, it encourages folks to talk small trips from one point to another that they otherwise wouldn't take [[e.g., maybe during lunch hour or after work before going home).

Are those business owners saying they lost business during construction and haven't regained it?

[detmsp]

This thing is a joke. People keep talking about how you can use it for tigers games or to go to a museum... That is not what sustains public transportation. Commuters do. And the qline is so short, that you probably won't find many people who just so happen to live at one end and work at the opposite end of the line. If it were longer, you'd find more people who do.

Even if you do live and work along the line, it doesn't you help you avoid congestion, you have to wait for it to arrive and it's only saving you a couple miles of driving.

I know this option wasn't really on the table, but to be useful it needs to go further, needs FAR fewer stops per mile and needs to be able to bypass congestion via dedicated lane.