Q Line "Constructive Criticism"

[Bham1982]

What? I know nothing about Dallas's lightrail lines, but what I'm hearing from you is "Dallas has one with similar density. It doesn't get much use, but the fact that they have it proves that it was a good decision."

You could similarly look at someone who is fairly poor, but blows their money on a fancy car and say "see? You don't need to have money for it to be a good decision to lease an Escalade"

I was thinking the same. Dallas is Exhibit A in light rail failures. They spent megabillions, have one of the largest systems in North America, and ridership is pathetic and lower than when they just had buses [[and when Dallas metro population was less than it is today).

[emu steve]

I say start with a Pontiac to Downtown Detroit Route with stops equivalent to a subway's allowing free transfers to other buses, or the Qline and People Mover, for any distances in between. Mix in an hourly express bus that leap frogs some lesser stops or runs routes expressway routes as you suggest. Research results and adjust. Embark on a bus de-stigmatization marketing campaign.

Is your proposed route all Woodward or is it 75 and then exiting and joining Woodward?

In NoVa [[a good case study for this kind of thing), there are multiple bus lines which pick up passengers at the Pentagon subway station and takes the EXPRESS lanes of 395 before becomes essentially a LOCAL bus with stops after exiting the EXPRESS lanes.

My proposal is EXPRESS from OC via 75 to Woodward/94 and then local with stops say every 1/2 mile along Woodward going toward downtown. E.g., 94, Warren, MLK/Mack, Montcalm, etc.

This line would be designed to move passengers [[mostly downtown workers) to and from Oakland Co. as quickly as possible. It would run during 'rush hours' during the work week, etc.

[313WX]

This is something that every commuter rail system in the country has to deal with. Even the Long Island Railroad, which is the busiest commuter rail system in the country, has to share tracks with freight trains.

I'm curious to know how mucb freight traffic travels to/from Long Island versus Detroit [[an industrial / logistics hub).

Here in Atlanta, part of the reason commuter rails have failed to get off the ground [[despite having existing tracks in place) is because CSX and Norfolk Southern have made it clear they don't want to give up any of their capacity.

[Bham1982]

I'm curious to know how mucb freight traffic travels to/from Long Island versus Detroit [[an industrial / logistics hub).

I doubt there's much freight traffic on the LIRR. For one, all the main lines are subway-style third rail, with 24/7 passenger service. For another, there's only one way off LI for freight [[and that's an extremely busy Amtrak-owned bridge). And there's basically no industry or logistics on LI.

If there's freight service, it must be at night or at odd times. I've ridden two of the main lines countless times, and don't ever recall seeing freight service. Oh, and the MTA owns all the lines.

[emu steve]

I want to get back to what I call the MLine [[Michigan Ave.), possible QLine's new sibling.

I posted elsewhere about 1,100 new federal employees who would move to 985 Michigan Ave.

Ford would lead a bunch of commercial activity along Michigan Ave. between Rosa Park and MCS.

When will there be enough demand for a short haul service from downtown to MCS??

Does the MLine attempt to get ahead of it and hope that further commercial activity and housing locate along the line [[forward looking instead of building the transportation line where commercial activity and housing already exist).

[EGrant]

The very early results of the QLine are not great, so I suspect the region [[both private and taxpayer funding) has a smaller appetite for these projects at this point.

However, I think there is a difference between connecting a ton of Ford employees to downtown and connecting downtown to Midtown. The MLine seems to fit more of a "need" where the QLine was built in hopes that it would spur more development.

[emu steve]

The very early results of the QLine are not great, so I suspect the region [[both private and taxpayer funding) has a smaller appetite for these projects at this point.

However, I think there is a difference between connecting a ton of Ford employees to downtown and connecting downtown to Midtown. The MLine seems to fit more of a "need" where the QLine was built in hopes that it would spur more development.

Agree. If more and more housing comes to Corktown where are the residents going to work?

They aren't most likely going to live in Corktown and say work in Dearborn.

Those residents are likely to work along Michigan Ave. in Corktown [[obviously Ford is what everyone would think) or downtown or could even work in Midtown.

The biggest issue I would see if that the stakeholders of the QLine have less 'skin in the game' for a Michigan Ave. line.

I could see someone living at the Leland House and working at a Ford building [[e.g., MCS) and taking the MLine.

[pocketchange]

I would expect Ford might want to run an autonomous vehicle [[bus or maybe smaller vehicles to start) between Dearborn and Corktown if there is more of a presence. Maybe even allow the public to use it in some ways?

[iheartthed]

I want to get back to what I call the MLine [[Michigan Ave.), possible QLine's new sibling.

I posted elsewhere about 1,100 new federal employees who would move to 985 Michigan Ave.

Ford would lead a bunch of commercial activity along Michigan Ave. between Rosa Park and MCS.

When will there be enough demand for a short haul service from downtown to MCS??

Does the MLine attempt to get ahead of it and hope that further commercial activity and housing locate along the line [[forward looking instead of building the transportation line where commercial activity and housing already exist).

Is the "MLine" a development that is actually being considered? Or is this just a thought exercise?

[bust]

The Q line is just one piece of a much larger puzzle. Detroit needs a much better transit network overall before it achieves critical mass. One partial spoke does not make a wheel. The dreams, if realized, for a continuation of service into Oakland County, and for rail lines running up the other spokes would of course help. The new Fast buses are a necessary improvement until then. But Detroit's transit network needs vastly more investment beyond that. Driving is deeply engrained in the mentality for many. And it has become part and parcel of shape of the metropolis. No one said it would be easy to change people's behavior, nor to reverse nearly a century of urban planning mistakes.

And like others have said: yes design matters. Sometimes halfway solutions are fully a waste.

This is not going to be an easy nut to crack. But let's not stop trying.

[emu steve]

Is the "MLine" a development that is actually being considered? Or is this just a thought exercise?

Thought exercise.

I [[and others, I guess) are thinking what could happen along Michigan Ave. as thinks start to perk there.

I'm thinking Corktown becomes the new "Midtown."

One think I believe is that in Detroit things radiate from downtown and large scale commercial activity are likely to be along an artery connected to downtown.

I'm not surprised Ford picked Corktown and not somewhere like say Southfield and 8 Mile [[just pulled that out of my head.).

[K-slice]

Is the "MLine" a development that is actually being considered? Or is this just a thought exercise?

Unfortunately, no rail extension was included in the most recent RTA proposal, so at this point I would say "thought exercise" for sure. Ford entering the picture or a possible change in DC back towards grants for these types of things could change that I would think.

IMO, activating MCS is the key to getting civic and business leaders serious about some kind of real transit down Michigan, especially with two big projects already underway [[The Corner and Elton Park).

[Jason]

Corktown is a difficult area in terms of transit.

Despite it's reputation, there's not actually a large volume of "stuff" there. There's a few blocks of single family homes, a dozen or so interesting businesses, and a relatively small number of apartment buildings. There's a lot of open land, but I think there would be very strong resistance to building large, non-quaint buildings there. I also think people are attached to the red pavers. The other spoke roads [[except maybe Grand River) are already denser and are less sensitive to new development. I'd still support a Michigan line though.

[emu steve]

Corktown is a difficult area in terms of transit.

Despite it's reputation, there's not actually a large volume of "stuff" there. There's a few blocks of single family homes, a dozen or so interesting businesses, and a relatively small number of apartment buildings. There's a lot of open land, but I think there would be very strong resistance to building large, non-quaint buildings there. I also think people are attached to the red pavers. The other spoke roads [[except maybe Grand River) are already denser and are less sensitive to new development. I'd still support a Michigan line though.

Agree.

Now there is some apartment buildings on Trumbull, new development at the Tiger Stadium site, and not a whole lot else.

In a city with strong development, Ford's presence would be enough to create a land rush developers would be grabbing buildable parcels along Michigan Ave. to say MCS even though the land now is greatly under utilized.

Whether that will happen is TBD, but if it does NOT happen then Ford might not have made a wise move with their Rosa Park buildings + MCS.

I'm sure employees in those buildings would like a lot of amenities, e.g., places to eat lunch, happy hour bars, etc.

We've all heard of 'nation building.' This would be 'neighborhood building.'

[professorscott]

Agree.

Now there is some apartment buildings on Trumbull, new development at the Tiger Stadium site, and not a whole lot else.

I think a line that would get a lot more use more quickly would be to take a line from downtown up Michigan Avenue to the old train station, then cut south to Vernor and west along Vernor. That neighborhood is quite busy and a lot of people visit it. Of course, as we've said, this is just a thought exercise and that's just my $0.02.

[stasu1213]

I feel that the Q-Line was designed to be a failure from the start. It was a bad idea to run it curbside where cars or any other obstacle could shut down the ride for minutes while the police wait for the owner of the vehicle to come out and remove it off the track. Someone from GM must had designed it so that it would fail. Anyone could jump on it and ride for free for there is no one to moniter who had paid and who didn't. Maybe once all of the potential retail line Woodward from Larned to Grand Blvd the Q Line would be of good use. I wanted some sort of mass transporation but didn't think, giving the cost to building the Q Line, that it would be financial sufficient as to compared to rapid busses with their own designated lanes.

[DetroitSoldier]

Do the numbers count all riders or just paid customers? I would love to know an estimate of how many people ride without paying fare. I know there are tons that ride without fare after leaving events. I've seen it with my own eyes.

[ndavies]

Do the numbers count all riders or just paid customers? I would love to know an estimate of how many people ride without paying fare. I know there are tons that ride without fare after leaving events. I've seen it with my own eyes.

After the event? How do you know they haven't paid? You can buy a ticket that lasts for 3 hours or the entire day instead of a one way trip. They could have bought a 3 hour ticket before the event. No need to buy again after the event. That's what I do when I ride it. Why would anyone go through the hassle and extra expense of buying tickets in both directions when a 3 hour one will cover it.

[dtowncitylover]

After the event? How do you know they haven't paid? You can buy a ticket that lasts for 3 hours or the entire day instead of a one way trip. They could have bought a 3 hour ticket before the event. No need to buy again after the event. That's what I do when I ride it. Why would anyone go through the hassle and extra expense of buying tickets in both directions when a 3 hour one will cover it.

And an all day ticket is $3. This is an incredible value.

[DetroitSoldier]

Because I've heard many people say it. People leaving LCA or CoPa will remark that they cant get to the ticketing machine because of the crowds, then the train comes so they say "let's just go." I'm not saying this is a regular occurence. The punishment is definitely not worth the crime. I'm just saying, it would be interesting to know exact ridership compared to just fares paid. I would imagine there is quite a discrepancy. I have also seen some teens remark about riding free. I know it the exception, not the norm. But it all adds up. If 100 people ride free each day, that could potentially reach over $100,000 annually in lost revenue.

Before you think I'm crazy with that 100 a day number, look at how common the trains are but how uncommon it is to see someone verifying tickets. Major metros that run on the honor system have estimated numbers as high as 1 in 8 riding free.

I'm a fan of M-1 rail and hope for its success. I hope it remains on the honor system as well. I am just bringing up a point that has not been widely discussed.

[stasu1213]

Q line should do a 24 hrs pass that's effective from that time that the pass is purchased to the next day or night at the same time

[Scottathew]

Only use rail if you're going to grade-separate it. I would be willing to pay for a subway or elevated rail system. If you were to run subway up Woodward to Pontiac, the land near the stations would become much more valuable and amenable to high densities, including in Pontiac.

Otherwise, use at-grade BRT with dedicated right of way, elevated platforms, and have the BRT center-run.

Also, another scenario would be dedicated, grade separated, right of way for a rail system that is in-between the directions of I-75. Instead of having an 8 lane freeway, you could do six lanes with rail in the center. Put park and rides out in the suburbs and then find a way to take it into the heart of downtown.

[EGrant]

A subway line is about $1 billion per mile. Detroit doesn't have the need or the population for such a project.

I know this is super boring, but the BRT with a dedicated lane, signal priority, and a very good marketing campaign is the most cost-effective and ideal solution.

[archfan]

Q line should do a 24 hrs pass that's effective from that time that the pass is purchased to the next day or night at the same time

... with phone purchase, so no one has the excuse of long lines at the ticket machine.

[Junjie]

I was thinking the same. Dallas is Exhibit A in light rail failures. They spent megabillions, have one of the largest systems in North America, and ridership is pathetic and lower than when they just had buses [[and when Dallas metro population was less than it is today).

The mindset that cities should [[or even can) build transit which will instantly generate huge ridership really has it backwards. In places that did not grow up around transit and haven't maintained transit-friendly density and land use [[e.g. everywhere except the east coast and Chicago), high-quality transit will only pay off on decades-long timespans. It is literally impossible for the Dallas suburbs - or the Detroit metro area - to generate high transit ridership, even if you were able to build 150 miles of subway overnight and run the trains every 2 minutes. The land use patterns, commuting patterns, and behavioral patterns take a long time to shift.

When I-75 opened in 1970, it carried half the traffic in Oakland County that it carries today. But we've spent the last 45 years orienting around the freeways, and now traffic on it has doubled despite no growth in the regional population. People spent those 45 years making different decisions about where to live, where to locate a business, where to work, and where to shop based on the existence of the freeway. The oldest line in the Dallas system was finished in 2002 and the newest only opened in 2012. Its "pathetic" ridership [[100,000+ daily) is already greater than the entire ridership of the DDOT bus system. Check back in 2047 if you want to evaluate its success on a comparable time scale.

The QLine cannot and will not generate high ridership as built, because it is slow, infrequent, and serves a tiny area with a small total population. It's really too bad that it was built on the curb, and the service level needs to be improved - trains every 10 minutes, reliably. But as people continue to move into downtown, Brush Park, midtown, and New Center, ridership will grow. As new buildings are built specifically to take advantage of locations near stops, ridership will grow. And in my view center-running extensions and additional lines would still be worthy investment, if the goal is to re-develop a transit oriented city core over the next 25-50 years.