Q Line "Constructive Criticism"

[Junjie]

A subway line is about $1 billion per mile. Detroit doesn't have the need or the population for such a project.

I know this is super boring, but the BRT with a dedicated lane, signal priority, and a very good marketing campaign is the most cost-effective and ideal solution.

BRT is a poor substitute for actual rail, because it is much lower capacity and much less powerful as a driver of development patterns. And Detroit absolutely has the population [[in the metro region) to support grade-separated rail transit. Cities with significantly smaller regional populations [[Seattle, Minneapolis, Denver, etc.) are building out extensive rapid transit systems right now. Detroit just has a complete lack of political will to move towards a transit-oriented development framework as these cities are doing.

Of course with that in mind, I'd certainly take BRT as proposed in the 2016 RTA plan over what we have today.

[professorscott]

I feel that the Q-Line was designed to be a failure from the start. It was a bad idea to run it curbside where cars or any other obstacle could shut down the ride for minutes while the police wait for the owner of the vehicle to come out and remove it off the track. Someone from GM must had designed it so that it would fail.

I was one of the people who designed it, and none of us worked for GM at the time. Since then, I don't know. The curb-side configuration was the result of a lot of discussion and looking at other systems worldwide.

The lack of a dedicated lane is simpler: we couldn't get one. MDOT was not willing to give up an automobile lane over the entire length of the run. [[The DDOT "DTOGS" plan showing otherwise was an unbuildable fantasy.)

It was not "designed to fail"; it was designed to encourage redevelopment, as it has. If we had built it in 2006 when we started planning it, ridership would have been positively anemic, as not much was then going on in New Center. As others have remarked, as the population in the surrounding neighborhoods increases, ridership will organically increase, and if it linked to other, better modes of transit than what we are all used to, ridership will also increase. It will be interesting, a year or two from now, to see how many people are connecting from the new SMART "FAST" service to QLine.

[emu steve]

I was one of the people who designed it, and none of us worked for GM at the time. Since then, I don't know. The curb-side configuration was the result of a lot of discussion and looking at other systems worldwide.

The lack of a dedicated lane is simpler: we couldn't get one. MDOT was not willing to give up an automobile lane over the entire length of the run. [[The DDOT "DTOGS" plan showing otherwise was an unbuildable fantasy.)

It was not "designed to fail"; it was designed to encourage redevelopment, as it has. If we had built it in 2006 when we started planning it, ridership would have been positively anemic, as not much was then going on in New Center. As others have remarked, as the population in the surrounding neighborhoods increases, ridership will organically increase, and if it linked to other, better modes of transit than what we are all used to, ridership will also increase. It will be interesting, a year or two from now, to see how many people are connecting from the new SMART "FAST" service to QLine.

Yep. And I was one of the ones who suggested that it was designed to encourage organically its own market, if you will, of those folks who now or will live along the route.

There is still plenty of room for population growth in the next 5 years along the route.

[DetroitSoldier]

Something I think we need to leverage harder is the Q Line's link between the ever growing number of hotel rooms in the Downtown core and the museums in midtown. Many out of town guests I have met that are staying in downtown hotels are unaware that there is an entire district of museums just a 10 minute ride up the road. We should be encouraging those staying downtown to visit the DIA, Science Center, etc.

I know a friend recently stayed in one of the better hotels but the book in their room listed only destinations off the people mover. Hotels should be promoting the Q Line in their literature.

[Bigdd]

Because I've heard many people say it. People leaving LCA or CoPa will remark that they cant get to the ticketing machine because of the crowds, then the train comes so they say "let's just go." I'm not saying this is a regular occurrence. The punishment is definitely not worth the crime. I'm just saying, it would be interesting to know exact ridership compared to just fares paid. I would imagine there is quite a discrepancy.

Big discrepancy indeed. A majority do not pay.

The stats they released last Fall were that only 40% of riders bother to pay. Which was considered quite good actually,.. as the national average is 32.5% that pay.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...idership-falls

So that's something the people proposing light rail need to factor in,... that actual ridership will likely only be perhaps 1/3 of what they are imagining,.. and only 1/3 of those will be paying. So with light rail,. you need to move the decmal one place to the left on whatever income the proponents claim the system will generate.


With a bus system,.. 95.5% of riders typically pay,.. and with subways,.. I think it's around 90%,.. but I can't find good data. New York is 89% I think,.. but they also stopped arresting turnstile jumpers.

Light rail is VERY hard to police. No driver,.. no turnstile, no restricted access.

[Bradley]

Big discrepancy indeed. A majority do not pay.

The stats they released last Fall were that only 40% of riders bother to pay. Which was considered quite good actually,.. as the national average is 32.5% that pay.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...idership-falls

So that's something the people proposing light rail need to factor in,... that actual ridership will likely only be perhaps 1/3 of what they are imagining,.. and only 1/3 of those will be paying. So with light rail,. you need to move the decmal one place to the left on whatever income the proponents claim the system will generate.


With a bus system,.. 95.5% of riders typically pay,.. and with subways,.. I think it's around 90%,.. but I can't find good data. New York is 89% I think,.. but they also stopped arresting turnstile jumpers.

Light rail is VERY hard to police. No driver,.. no turnstile, no restricted access.

I'm a light rail fan having lived in Portland and believe it to be the way to be but the politics around here suck and nothing will gain momentum in our [[GenZ/Mill) lifetimes...

[emu steve]

I'm a light rail fan having lived in Portland and believe it to be the way to be but the politics around here suck and nothing will gain momentum in our [[GenZ/Mill) lifetimes...

Absolutely agree that S.E. Michigan politics is one reason the area is SO FAR behind the rest of the nation.

Companies like Amazon and Apple looking for new campuses know which areas have their s*it together and which do not.

Inter-governmental light or heavy rail shows that local governments can work together on something very expensive and very difficult.

If Amazon had a 'regional government score' S.E. MI's would have a minus sign in front of it.

Note: Apple is also in the market for kind of another really big campus. A very much under-reported story.

[Bigdd]

If Amazon had a 'regional government score' S.E. MI's would have a minus sign in front of it.

The available work-force in Detroit may have a lot to do with it too.

Some 65% of Detroiters are illiterate. I can't find 1-2 employees able to do simple things like mow lawn or operate a vacuum cleaner. How would Amazon find a thousand people able to operate computers?

Import them all from the burbs I suppose [[like what Quicken, the hospitals etc all do now), then perhaps some of the younger ones that don't have children will rent apartments or lofts downtown.

Or the companies could just put their new location in a place with better hiring prospects.

Detroit also has the illegal city income tax to overcome,.. and lack of grocery stores, movie theaters, etc, etc, etc

If I had to guess,... I'd say spending a billion or two on light rail would only move a company like Amazon's "Detroit viability needle" a few percent. And at HUGE cost to us.

[middetres]

Now that Michigan has a Democratic Governor, are the chances of MDOT allowing the QLine to have its own lane [[north of GCP only) greater than when it opened under Snyder? Is it a simple policy shift or would a law need to be passed?

[Bigdd]

Now that Michigan has a Democratic Governor, are the chances of MDOT allowing the QLine to have its own lane [[north of GCP only) greater than when it opened under Snyder? Is it a simple policy shift or would a law need to be passed?

They need to just ban the Q-Line.

I was forced to go south of West Grand Blvd a few times last week. Woodward is a hot mess. The silly [[and empty) Q-Line cars blocking traffic here and there,..

They need to just get them off the streets.

[pocketchange]

Similar to my recent experiences and not many answers from M1

https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/2019/11/21/detroit-qline-schedule-streetcar-randy-essex/4238726002/

[bartocktoo]

Now that Michigan has a Democratic Governor, are the chances of MDOT allowing the QLine to have its own lane [[north of GCP only) greater than when it opened under Snyder? Is it a simple policy shift or would a law need to be passed?

I don't think we have a Democratic Governor. It's in name only. She's Autocratic, much like the asshole in D.C. Looking in areas and bending this way or that way on issues to get the most money and votes. Sorry for the cynicism, and she was better than the alternative in my opinion, but early on a big disappointment.

Oh, and maybe I should get to the actual issue...I don't think the Governor can actually force a dedicated lane to happen. But it sure seems like the best course to make it work.

[DetroitSoldier]

I use the Q Line 3-4 times a week. I have never waited more than 15 minutes. However I have been frustrated by not knowing when the next train is coming and I have also been slowed down by delivery trucks or cars parked on Woodward, from the lack of a dedicated lane.

Overall the Q Line seems like an effective link between the downtown destinations and the midtown cultural center. I think there would be tremendous value in pushing this as a neighborhood connector for visitors more than a transit alternative for residents. However we do not have enough of one or the other to make it profitable on its own.

[Pat001]

I still don't get what the Q line does that a bus can't do - for a lot less money.

[ndavies]

Certain demographics won't ride busses. they're too good for busses. They much prefer trains.

#TwoDetroits

[Tig3rzhark]

If you truly want these streetcars to stay, you can't just waste it on Midtown and Downtown Detroit. You're going to have to expand it further out.

#TwoDetroits

That hash tag describes exactly what we have at the moment. If you believe that there is a such thing as OneDetroit, then prove it by expanding decent service further out.

At least there's some form of alternative. We can use the already built Q-Line stations as a starting point for BRT.

[softailrider]

I use the Q Line 3-4 times a week. I have never waited more than 15 minutes. However I have been frustrated by not knowing when the next train is coming and I have also been slowed down by delivery trucks or cars parked on Woodward, from the lack of a dedicated lane.

Overall the Q Line seems like an effective link between the downtown destinations and the midtown cultural center. I think there would be tremendous value in pushing this as a neighborhood connector for visitors more than a transit alternative for residents. However we do not have enough of one or the other to make it profitable on its own.

Doesn't seem like there is a lot of weekly users like yourself. Most people who I have talked to who have been on it, have only used it once or twice. I’m in the city a few times a week. I’ve never had any need or desire to get on the thing. I drive my nice comfortable car, listen to XM, pay to park if I have to and the hell with it. The line doesn’t go anywhere anyway.

Transportation in the area is a problem, but this isn’t even close to a solution.

[DetroitSoldier]

Doesn't seem like there is a lot of weekly users like yourself. Most people who I have talked to who have been on it, have only used it once or twice. I’m in the city a few times a week. I’ve never had any need or desire to get on the thing. I drive my nice comfortable car, listen to XM, pay to park if I have to and the hell with it. The line doesn’t go anywhere anyway.

Transportation in the area is a problem, but this isn’t even close to a solution.

This is fair.

I guess it all depends on practical use for each .person. I live on the East side of the city and drive to my job downtown. Then I will use it for weekly appointments at the VA medical center or to business meetings in New Center just so I dont have to drive. It takes longer but frees me up to make phone calls or do other things that would otherwise be oushed aside while I'm driving. I have taken the bus instead of the train several times. But honestly the heated platform at the Q Line makes a big difference rhis time of year.

[EGrant]

Last night for the tree-lighting, they put cones out to give the Q-Line it's own lane on lower Woodward, in the Merchant's Row portion. I'm not sure how close the train was actually going to Campus Martius, as it was completely packed and I didn't venture into the crowds, but it was running in its own lane. Interesting to see.

[hybridy]

I drive my nice comfortable car, listen to XM.

I now know of 2 people who subscribe to XM. Why pay for streaming if you can’t stream outside your vehicle? Spotify much?

[softailrider]

I now know of 2 people who subscribe to XM. Why pay for streaming if you can’t stream outside your vehicle? Spotify much?

It was free for 4 months on the vehicle I that I purchased, now it’s 6 dollars a month. Thankfully, the 6 bucks doesn’t mean much to me and I enjoy the service. I think you can use it on other devices, but I haven’t done that.

They must have subscribers or it wouldn’t exist, I think they play good music.

[Johnnny5]

I now know of 2 people who subscribe to XM. Why pay for streaming if you can’t stream outside your vehicle? Spotify much?

My XM subscription includes online streaming from my phone or computer. After a quick call I was able to get the subscription under $100 for the entire year, so it's not a bad deal.


As for the Q-Line, its apparent lack of success just reinforces my apprehension of voting for the latest funding plans that he RTA is rolling out. Expectations for ridership on the People Mover and Q-line[[So far) have never been anywhere close to being realized, so how are we ever supposed to believe the numbers from those pushing the RTA millage?

[DetroitSoldier]

I now know of 2 people who subscribe to XM. Why pay for streaming if you can’t stream outside your vehicle? Spotify much?

You can stream outside your vehicle. I stream from my vehicle, alexa, online, and from my phone.

[renf]

Do we have any reliable information about Q line patronage? I was
under the impression that there was a steady increase in the passenger
but the counts have not yet reached or even gotten close to the 8,000
riders per day number that was mentioned at the outset. I assume
the poor performance of the Tigers this year reduced Q line business
somewhat.

[401don]

Do we have any reliable information about Q line patronage? I was
under the impression that there was a steady increase in the passenger
but the counts have not yet reached or even gotten close to the 8,000
riders per day number that was mentioned at the outset. I assume
the poor performance of the Tigers this year reduced Q line business
somewhat.

The horrible payment rates are an even bigger issue than ridership.