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  1. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnny5 View Post
    As for the Q-Line, its apparent lack of success just reinforces my apprehension of voting for the latest funding plans that he RTA is rolling out. Expectations for ridership on the People Mover and Q-line(So far) have never been anywhere close to being realized, so how are we ever supposed to believe the numbers from those pushing the RTA millage?
    The lack of success more accurately portrays what could have been if the M1 was funded the way transit experts initially wanted it. Longer, fewer stops, and center running. Almost all of the complaints stem from the fact the government pulled money and private interest got involved.

  2. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonWylie View Post
    The lack of success more accurately portrays what could have been if the M1 was funded the way transit experts initially wanted it. Longer, fewer stops, and center running. Almost all of the complaints stem from the fact the government pulled money and private interest got involved.
    Yeah, but the private money came from guys who usually don’t make mistakes. This thing is just like a dog that don’t hunt.

  3. #278

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    The Q Line(for the record I hate that name) is a huge failure, but I can't see a future without it going further to or beyond 8 Mile. I believe the tracts can be retrofitted to accommodate a light rail which would make using it more realistic. This all can't be done obviously without the RTA being passed, but I doubt they'd leave expanding the M1 out of the plan.

  4. #279

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    Apparently many urban transit systems collect fares from a surprisingly
    small percent of riders. Is there a solution to this challenge? I believe
    the new light rail system in Kansas City has one solution - make the
    service free. This does not seem very practical.

  5. #280

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    Light rail is the gift that keeps on taking. When ridership fails to meet projections, taxpayers get stuck with maintenance and operation costs for decades.

  6. #281

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat001 View Post
    Light rail is the gift that keeps on taking. When ridership fails to meet projections, taxpayers get stuck with maintenance and operation costs for decades.
    Just like the freeways. So how about we invest in something that could actually help the city and region?

  7. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat001 View Post
    Light rail is the gift that keeps on taking. When ridership fails to meet projections, taxpayers get stuck with maintenance and operation costs for decades.
    Indication that you have not traveled much

  8. #283

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    Quote Originally Posted by renf View Post
    Apparently many urban transit systems collect fares from a surprisingly
    small percent of riders. Is there a solution to this challenge? I believe
    the new light rail system in Kansas City has one solution - make the
    service free. This does not seem very practical.
    Buffalo's light rail is also free when you're right downtown between the lakefront and the Medical Center, which about 6 or 7 stops.

  9. #284

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat001 View Post
    I still don't get what the Q line does that a bus can't do - for a lot less money.
    The long term cost of buses is far more expensive than trains.

  10. #285

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    Honestly I don't see any way out for the QLine. It loses against the buses, and making transit lanes or expanding it would help the buses too, so it would still lose. And with the current stretch being so dysfunctional, even if you did a perfect job expanding it to Royal Oak, the expansion would just magnify the existing problems across a bigger system.


    However, if it were to be expanded, there is one sure fire, objectively good, and very doable expansion.

    That would be expanding to to Henry Ford Hospital.

    That would connect 12,000+ jobs (and more to come, with their expansion) and many many visitors to the system, and it would actually be useful because the way it's off to the side means that normal transit routes don't really go there very well.

    I imagine it could be run on Milwaukee, instead of Grand Boulevard, in order to avoid traffic and complicated roads, to keep it running smoothly.

  11. #286

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    The Qline will be more effective when more retail, restaurants, and theaters or venue line Woodward from Campus Martius to Grand Blvd. Hopefully it would extend north to 8 mile rd without tearing up Woodward down to the sewer lines. The stops need linger space heaters that runs the length on the booth itself instead of the small one that sits in the upper corner

  12. #287

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtowncitylover View Post
    Just like the freeways. So how about we invest in something that could actually help the city and region?
    Freeways help me get to where I have to go. They help me just about every day.

  13. #288

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    The long term cost of buses is far more expensive than trains.
    No way. Initially, light rail is about 85x the cost of buses,... and long term it's 10x buses.

    And it can't go around stopped cars

    And it can't be re-routed

    And it's hard to add more cars in heavy traffic times or for sporting events

    And it collects far fewer fares

    And on and on

  14. #289

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    ...And on. Agreed

  15. #290

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    Is there evidence that, across the nation, the percent of passengers who
    pay for their transit on buses is higher than the percent who pay for their
    transit on light rail? Are there some light rail systems including the one
    in Cleveland, that do a pretty good job of collecting fares? Someone
    likely knows the answers.

  16. #291

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    Quote Originally Posted by renf View Post
    Is there evidence that, across the nation, the percent of passengers who
    pay for their transit on buses is higher than the percent who pay for their
    transit on light rail? Are there some light rail systems including the one
    in Cleveland, that do a pretty good job of collecting fares? Someone
    likely knows the answers.

    Fare evasion is seen as chronic in New York after they decriminalized turnstile jumping,.. still some 97% pay the SUBWAY fare.

    For buses,.. about 80% pay in New York.

    Nationally just 32% pay on light rail systems (Detroit is actually high at 40%)



    With buses,.. you have the driver RIGHT at the door where passengers have to get in, and you either show your pass or pay right there. And the driver can just sit there and wait for police if they get a bad seed flaunting the system.

    But with light rail,.. there are what? 3-6 doors? And the driver is in a separate compartment at the front,.. and the payment is done elsewhere,.. so the driver has no idea if people paid. So you get rampant abuse.

    And subways you have police, and turnstiles etc.

    Basically, light rail is by far the easiest system to ride for free, and it doesn't reduce traffic congestion (exacerbates it usually), and is slow.

    The Q-Line averages 8.4 mph, (about 2/3 the speed of a bicycle). If it went from Pontiac,.. expect a 2 hour and 50 minute commute (each way) to downtown.

    (It should be mentioned,.. buses aren't lightning fast either,.. averaging just 12.8 or so)
    Last edited by Bigdd; November-24-19 at 08:58 PM.

  17. #292

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdd View Post
    The Q-Line averages 8.4 mph, (about 2/3 the speed of a bicycle). If it went from Pontiac,.. expect a 2 hour and 50 minute commute (each way) to downtown.
    Does that include time at the stops? I'd assume a QLine to Pontiac would have more spaced-out stops once it got outside of New Center. Signal priority would help too.

  18. #293

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    I have also seen information from the American Public Transit group that
    the percent of passengers who pay fare is considerably higher than in
    many other cities. It is a real challenge to collect fares from those
    who ride buses or light rail. Subways with turnstiles collect fares from
    a higher proportion of riders. Are there any suggestions about how
    to encourage most bus and light rail riders to pay the fare or is this
    a problem without a practical solution?

  19. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by renf View Post
    Are there any suggestions about how
    to encourage most bus and light rail riders to pay the fare or is this
    a problem without a practical solution?
    The only practical solution is a transit cop checking fares on just about every train car or heavy fines.

    This is why I say, if we are going to rapid transit in this region, then do it the right way - elevated or subway. With elevated or subway, you have to go through turnstiles (like the PeopleMover), which means you have to pay the fare.

    Also, the light rail between downtowns Minneapolis and St. Paul is also experiencing alot of issues because of the honor system. Alot of street people, vagrants, and homeless people are getting on the trains because they don't have to pay and because of the problems these folks are causing, the transit agency has actually cut late-night service.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/TwinCities/..._an_atrocious/

    https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/08/...curb-homeless/

  20. #295

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdd View Post
    No way. Initially, light rail is about 85x the cost of buses,... and long term it's 10x buses.

    And it can't go around stopped cars

    And it can't be re-routed

    And it's hard to add more cars in heavy traffic times or for sporting events

    And it collects far fewer fares

    And on and on
    I don't know why people keep citing flexibility as a good thing. That is not a good thing. Predictability is a good thing. A rail system is more predictable than a bus system.

    As for cost, a single street car will carry 2-3 times the people that a single bus will carry. For a subway line, a single train can carry 10 - 30 times as many people as a single bus. No math will make buses cheaper than trains over the long term.

    Trains also last longer. NYC is still using subway cars that were built in the 1960s. I believe other cities (San Francisco?) are still using street cars that originally operated on DSR.

  21. #296

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    Elevated rail and subways are great, until you look at the cost per mile to build them. And in Detroit, where we can't even pass the RTA, spending multiple billions on a system is a pipe dream. I'd love a subway and I agree with the benefits listed above, but why not start with quality BRT? Signal priority, dedicated lanes, decent stations and accurate tracking and timetables seem like a much more feasible start before we propose spending untold amounts of money on a subway system to serve a car-centric population that hasn't grown much in the past decades.

  22. #297

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGrant View Post
    Elevated rail and subways are great, until you look at the cost per mile to build them. And in Detroit, where we can't even pass the RTA, spending multiple billions on a system is a pipe dream. I'd love a subway and I agree with the benefits listed above, but why not start with quality BRT? Signal priority, dedicated lanes, decent stations and accurate tracking and timetables seem like a much more feasible start before we propose spending untold amounts of money on a subway system to serve a car-centric population that hasn't grown much in the past decades.
    I don't have anything against BRT, but it's not a replacement for a train. In terms of planning and people mobility, a subway wouldn't be analogous to a bus. It would be more analogous to a freeway.

    A streetcar is not a subway, but it is still far more efficient than a bus. The capacity for moving people along Woodward Avenue has increased by several factors because of the QLine.

  23. #298

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonWylie View Post
    Indication that you have not traveled much
    No, I don’t travel much. But I lived in Washington, DC for several years and used the DC Metro system – which is in a death spiral of decreasing ridership caused by endless fare hikes and lousy service bc they can’t afford maintenance. First thing Washingtonians do each morning is check Metro operating status to see if it’s possible to get to work or if they will stay home and telework.

  24. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    I don't know why people keep citing flexibility as a good thing. That is not a good thing. Predictability is a good thing. A rail system is more predictable than a bus system.
    except that is the exact problem with the q line...it's entirely unpredictable with zero way to stop things like double parkers and just traffic interference in general. they don't even have signal priority or a reliable GPS tracking to tell you where the 'ef the thing is on the line. I mean, that's basic stuff.

    As for cost, a single street car will carry 2-3 times the people that a single bus will carry. For a subway line, a single train can carry 10 - 30 times as many people as a single bus. No math will make buses cheaper than trains over the long term.
    true, but when the reality is the qline runs empty or close to it most of the time who cares about what happens elsewhere? HERE in DETROIT, a bus is more efficient and cheaper.

    I was gone from Detroit for about 5 years. left about the time the Qline was getting finalized and construction starting...and seeing it today, it's landed right where everyone with a shred of common sense said it would... People Mover 2.0. inefficient, expensive, and underused. But Gilbert was paying so gilbert got his curbside running trolley to serve gilbertville. the gilbert team has to be pissed at how badly it serves even that infinitesimally small mission.

    I will give it some props. it is pretty nice, they keep the homeless off it generally. And I suppose it's fine to use if you have no real need to get anywhere along it on time, or in bad weather, or use it at any time there is an event happening.

  25. #300

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post

    As for cost, a single street car will carry 2-3 times the people that a single bus will carry. For a subway line, a single train can carry 10 - 30 times as many people as a single bus. No math will make buses cheaper than trains over the long term.
    But YOU are presuming that we need that capacity. It's a bit of a Catch22. To have a need for cars that handle 125 people,.. it presumes a huge passenger load. 10-20x what Detroit has.

    Far more important is frequency and speed. When a train car only happens by every 30 min,.. and then takes longer to get to your destination than a bike or walking,... the car capacity is meaningless.

    The biggest issue Detroit has is a lack of population density. Detroit's population is irrelevant,.. what matters is how many people both live AND work withing the bounds of the Q-Line. And that number is very small,.. making it all but useless.

    And as to cost,... age of the rail cars isn't the only consideration. In reality it's just a box with a motor and wheels (an in our case, batteries). So yeah,.. if maintained well,.. they should last 100 years (In fact Detroit's cars from the 30's are still in operation in Mexico City).

    But you DO have to factor in maintenance costs. And they are HIGH. Millions more than expected,.. and our cars are only 2 years old.

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