The future of Coleman A. Young airport

[GPCharles]

I envision a hub similar to Porter Air's hub at Toronto Lakefront Airport.

Porter Airlines is a regional airline headquartered at Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport on the Toronto Islands in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.^[1]

Owned by Porter Aviation Holdings, formerly known as REGCO Holdings Inc., Porter operates regularly scheduled flights between Toronto and locations in Canada and the United States using Canadian-built Bombardier Dash-8 Q 400 turboprop aircraft.

I fly them on a regular basis and the service is great, including free beer.

[Richard]

A Seattle-area startup, backed by the venture capital arms of Boeing Co [[BA.N) and JetBlue Airways Corp [[JBLU.O) announced plans on Thursday to bring a small hybrid-electric commuter aircraft to market by 2022.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aerospace-hybrid/boeing-backed-hybrid-electric-commuter-plane-to-hit-market-in-2022-idUSKBN1CA16A

I am in for free beer though.

[Atticus]

I am all for keeping the airfield. “Mothball it” if you have to. I think it would be foolish to replace it with an industrial park given the other availability of land throughout the city.

That all being said, don’t waste money on subsidizing commercial air service there. DTW, while inconvenient to eastsiders, is still a regional asset that is often overlooked economically.

And for those who think DTW is to far away, here is a comparison of driving distance from Airport terminal to city center:

DTW to Detroit - 20 miles
ORD to Chicago - 18 miles
SEA to Seattle - 16 miles
DEN to Denver - 26 miles
YYZ to Toronto - 18 miles

So Detroit is far from alone in having an airport far away from downtown. And of the 5 above, only one doesn’t have a rail connection between the two.

[3WC]

Years ago there was significant commercial activity at the airport.

Southwest [[SWA) had several flights a day to Chicago Midway and Kansas City. I flew those routes frequently. The planes [[all 737s) were generally full. SWA also flew out of Metro at the same time and I forgot the reason SWA terminated Detroit.

There were also a couple of commuter airlines that flew to Chicago Meigs Field and Cleveland's riverfront airport.

[Jason]

City airport has no future as being a mainstream commercial airport. It's already been discussed to death in other threads. It's not even a "this is what might work the best even if we all know it would never happen" type of thing. Spending the 83 million just brings city airport on par with its equivalents in other cities, which are closing or struggling. That is the best case scenario.

The study says that if city airport were better managed it could roughly break even. Investing 23 million now is cheaper than subsidizing the airport into perpetuity. Spend 23 million now and get a "free" airport for the foreseeable future. The airport *does* provide some value.


If the entire justification for spending the full 83 million to bring substandard commercial service to an airport in the ghetto is that it's closer to downtown, then I don't think it's a good justification. Google transit says that at the moment it takes 22 minutes to get downtown from DTW and 15 minutes from City Airport. You have to drive/taxi/uber for either of them.

DTW is a good airport. Planes are not people and Romulus and DTW are well suited for planes. Airports take up insane amounts of space, and create a lot of noise. DTW is also under capacity and it has the typical amenities [[except transit). Cities are for people, not planes. Bring the people to the planes, not the planes to the people.

I agree with Atticus's earlier post that if having an airport "close" to downtown is the goal, it would be better to spend the money creating a transit connection from DTW to downtown.

60-80 million doesn't pay for much but if city council wants to flush that much down the toilet for city airport then they should be willing to invest more in order to get a DTW transit connection. If it really is about quality air travel and not just about pride.


And as far as Duggan goes, it's true that city airport is a large continuous site that would work well for an industrial park. But it's also true that directly south of the airport are several empty large industrial lots which neither businesses or the city seem to have any interest in developing. It's just that politically "THOUSANDS of JOBS JOBS JOBS" sounds better than "we're not bothering with city airport anymore". And the city would spend more money subsidizing an industrial development there than it would be spending to fix the current airport anyway.

[bust]

I am all for keeping the airfield. “Mothball it” if you have to. I think it would be foolish to replace it with an industrial park given the other availability of land throughout the city.

That all being said, don’t waste money on subsidizing commercial air service there. DTW, while inconvenient to eastsiders, is still a regional asset that is often overlooked economically.

And for those who think DTW is to far away, here is a comparison of driving distance from Airport terminal to city center:

DTW to Detroit - 20 miles
ORD to Chicago - 18 miles
SEA to Seattle - 16 miles
DEN to Denver - 26 miles
YYZ to Toronto - 18 miles

So Detroit is far from alone in having an airport far away from downtown. And of the 5 above, only one doesn’t have a rail connection between the two.

Mothballing the airport should be considered.

Regarding the cities listed, they all except Detroit also have secondary public use airports closer to downtown. Midway Airport is about 10 miles from Chicago's loop; Boeing Field is 6 miles from downtown Seattle; Centennial Airport is 19 miles from downtown Denver; Bishop Airport is just offshore downtown Toronto. They all except Centennial handle domestic and international flights.

More considerations for evaluating opportunity cost: How valuable would faster and more convenient air travel be to companies considering where to [[re)locate? Especially companies engaged in businesses that will be particularly relevant in the future. How much would it benefit the companies already here?

The consensus seems to be the American economy is moving away from heavy industry toward service industries. People who provide white collar services fly a lot. Videoconferencing will continue improve, but as teams and clients get ever more distributed I expect it will be a long time before consultants, product managers, tech leads, salespeople, executives, etc. don't fly a lot.

Meanwhile what matters to the traveler is not just the time spent getting to or from the airport, it's also the time required getting to or from the gate once there. It seems to me the time required to check in, pass through security, and travel the distance to the gate is significantly more at DTW than at most other airports -- especially the latter two. This time at New York's Laguardia is usually much less than at JFK. This time at DET should be even less.

And waiting in turn to take off or land at busy airports is time wasted too.

That said, I'm fully on board with the idea to provide fast transit to DTW. It won't reduce time once at the airport, but it would help a lot, not least to be current with the competition. Maybe it's the best idea.

I just want to see more evidence DET isn't a better future asset as an airport than as an industrial park.

PS. Anyone not already familiar with flightaware.com: it's my pleasure to introduce it in the links.

[archfan]

Two things:

1. The Bombardier Dash-8 Q 400 linked in the article above is the squirreliest looking modern plane I've seen.

2. Spending $83M now on the airport just to break even doesn't make sense. Nor does selling the land - it's not like we're out of land in the rest of the city. Mothball it, or do the minimum to keep it running, and it's available in future for uber planes or other future uses.

Maybe we can land our jet packs there. I hear they'll be available in the next 5 years or so...

[pocketchange]

I hear they may turn it into a dragstrip, so people will stop street racing. Might not be a bad idea. Chief Craig is probably on board, since he has a 69 G.T.O.

Maybe they can move the Grand Prix to there like they used to do in Cleveland and still do in a few places to some extent.

[Meddle]

First thing to do is get that hateful bastard's name off of it.

I never understood the drive for a commercial airport. It should revert to a smaller executive and General Aviation airport. Nothing over 50 passengers or so. Use it as a hop service to DTW, maybe even with helicopters. Also could be for sightseeing flights.

Run special shuttles downtown for the Yuppie crowd to get between the two.

Reopen McNichols.

Dragstrip could be good as an addition ... close it to air traffic on Sundays.

With all the wide open vacant land and rundown ramshackle building begging to be razed, the 'industrial complex' could be almost anywhere else.

[Meddle]

And for those who think DTW is to far away, here is a comparison of driving distance from Airport terminal to city center:

DTW to Detroit - 20 miles

I had to map it because I didn't remember it being so short a distance. It may be 18 miles on the map, but it seems like 100 when driving it, or so I remember. I drive 18 miles or more now just to get to a grocery store; 10 to get to a gas station, but it only takes a few minutes.

That 18 miles from Downtown to DTW can take an hour or more.

[Vic01]

...That 18 miles from Downtown to DTW can take an hour or more.

Maybe if you're holding your speed down to 20mph due to the current snowstorm... I-94 is a straight shot out to Metro, under normal traffic conditions, guaranteed half an hour or less. Of course, if it takes you over a half hour to find your way on to the freeway system... then it could take "an hour or more".

[Meddle]

^^ In my days there, 'normal traffic' on 94 was bumper to bumper, a sea of taillights running 20 or less from the Lodge to Southfield.

[Vic01]

Other than the "rush" hour back ups most times traffic flows fairly well in/out of the city. Those times I'd agree 10 or 20 miles does seem to take forever...

[313WX]

From downtown, the distance to Metro isn't AS bad.

But the main point is being missed, that being most of the region's population lives north and east of downtown. If you're in Grosse Pointe or even most of Macomb / Oakland County, DTW might as well be a road trip

[Meddle]

^^ Which is why Selfridge might be a good option.

[douglasm]

Very good point, 313WX.

Sea-Tac airport may be 15 minuts from downtown Seattle )on a good commute day...or at 3 AM) as Atticus indicated, but if you live in Everett, it's more like an hour and a half. To that end, Paine Field, on the north side of Seattle/Everett is going to start commercial flights in the fall, with Alaska, Southwest and United using the facility.

It makes me wonder in a way if Bishop Airport in Flint should become a second "Detroit Metro" airport. It's convenient to Oakland County, and although it's flight distribution isn't the greatest, I'd consider it over Detroit Metro to fly home [[Ferndale).

[Jason]

From downtown, the distance to Metro isn't AS bad.

But the main point is being missed, that being most of the region's population lives north and east of downtown. If you're in Grosse Pointe or even most of Macomb / Oakland County, DTW might as well be a road trip

Because of our sprawly region, no matter where the airport is, it's going to be far away from someone.

Even if City Airport had commercial service and it was wildly successful it's still only capable of handling a small fraction of what DTW does, so most people would still have to fly through DTW anyway.

[313WX]

Because of our sprawly region, no matter where the airport is, it's going to be far away from someone.

Even if City Airport had commercial service and it was wildly successful it's still only capable of handling a small fraction of what DTW does, so most people would still have to fly through DTW anyway.

I recall hearing they were seriously considering putting the airport in South Warren [[back when the land was still undeveloped). That would have been a far more central and convenient location IMO.

[MikeM]

Several locations in/around Warren were under consideration.

[Meddle]

I still say Selfridge is the best plan for an east side facility. The purple area could be redeveloped for public access while maintaining security for the rest of the base. There's already an interchange there, though it might have to be worked on if traffic got too heavy.


City could then be a commuter hub for DTW, SANGB, Bishop and Windsor.

Bring back flying schools too with cost available rates.

[stasu1213]

Revitalize the City Airport so that smaller Boeing heys could fly in and out of there for local trips from other states within the country. The Metro Airport could take in local and international flights. Dignitaries, celebrities, and execs could use Detroit City Airport when flying into town so that the commute would be shorter getting to their destination from the airport especially in the winter. Gratiot could be redesigned from the airport to downtown Detroit to have express lanes from the Airport to downtown

[Bong-Man]

I still say Selfridge is the best plan for an east side facility. The purple area could be redeveloped for public access while maintaining security for the rest of the base. There's already an interchange there, though it might have to be worked on if traffic got too heavy.


City could then be a commuter hub for DTW, SANGB, Bishop and Windsor.

Bring back flying schools too with cost available rates.

I'm with you all the way on this. Selfridge has been a waste of money for almost 30 years. They used 9-11 as an excuse to keep it viable by basing homeland security there, but it outlived its' usefulness years ago. Having outdated A-10 squadrons in an urban area is a waste of our money, and the refueling jets can easily go elsewhere. There was movement and dispute on this about 5 years ago, as someone started to buy up all the property on Joy Rd for the purposes of freight flights and storage. People were being accused of having inside information about the base's future use, including Candice Miller. I live directly under the North/South runway, and I would be very pleased to drive to Selfridge instead of Metro for a flight. Most of my neighbors are dead-set against the move though, and I'm not really sure why. There's not much difference to me if a commercial airliner falls on my house as opposed to one full of jet fuel. The noise factor is about the same. Between the Base, Metro Beach, and DNR areas, Harrison Twp is more than 50% public land, which keeps taxes dirt cheap. Any talk of change makes people in this area very paranoid.

That subdivision you see on the bottom of your pic was never supposed to be built. The Base ran out of money to purchase land for a safe runway egress, and warned the Township to never build there. They did anyway.

Used City Airport many times when Southwest was there. I thought it was a beautiful thing while it lasted.

[Richard]

^ be on the receiving end of one of those A10s,I bet you will not think they are outdated then.

[Gsgeorge]

Several locations in/around Warren were under consideration.

Source for this map?

[MikeM]

Source for this map?

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/776946375