Possible Break for Religious Schools

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Today's Supreme Court decision [[7-2!) to throw out a Missouri constitutional plank banning the use of tax dollars for a religious institution serving a non-religious community need might well throw out all such "Blaine Amendments" nationwide*. If so, that would open up the floodgates to allowing state funds to follow kids to any school, including religious ones. That is unbridled good news for everyone not currently profiting from the public school monopoly. Mostly, it'll be great for kids, whose parents can have many new doors opened to them. Poor, urban kids will benefit the most, and I couldn't be happier.

*I haven't yet read- but I will- the decision. Unless it is more narrowly drawn [[and 2 summaries I read did not indicate that it was), governments can now fund things like daycare centers, schools & clinics run by religious groups just like such enterprises run by non-religious organizations.

[MSUguy]

You couldn't be happier about undoing the separation between church and state?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

You couldn't be happier about undoing the separation between church and state?

That is not the same thing. Repealing the Blaine amendments does not allow the state to fund churches in their religious activity. It allows, in the case that went to court, state money to fund safer playgrounds to be shared with a Lutheran daycare center as it would otherwise be shared with a non-church affiliated daycare. Even 2 liberals agreed with the ruling.

[Meddle]

As long as it means they now have to pay Property Taxes, I'm good.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

As long as it means they now have to pay Property Taxes, I'm good.

If only; that would be great.

[casscorridor]

You couldn't be happier about undoing the separation between church and state?

And happy about indoctrinating children with religious fanaticism with taxpayer dollars! What a time to be American.

[Meddle]

Treat 'em like the businesses they are and require the same curriculum as any other school.

[O3H]

All property should pay property tax in the USA.
Feel free to enjoy religious liberty with a church
-- but understand that it IS taking up a "space" .

[hybridy]

Here's how that goes in Ann Arbor. Student congregations tear down old rectory to build luxury student housing with private developer. The church 'furthers' their missions at $1000/mo per bedroom all tax free courtesy of the tax payer.

Just a few ex:

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/loc...cc4c03286.html

http://host.madison.com/wsj/lifestyl...ef359dcd2.html

[Richard]

​In its 1970 opinion in Walz vs. Tax Commission of the City of New York, the high court stated that a tax exemption for churches "creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state and far less than taxation of churches. [An exemption] restricts the fiscal relationship between church and state, and tends to complement and reinforce the desired separation insulating each from the other." The Supreme Court also said that "the power to tax involves the power to destroy." Taxing churches breaks down the healthy separation of church and state and leads to the destruction of the free exercise of religion.

http://www.latimes.com/la-oew-lynn-stanley23-2008sep23-story.html

[Tig3rzhark]

So this recent ruling that's undoing the separation of church and state, means that they are going to take my tax dollars to fund religious indoctrination?

You know what the difference between public and private-parochial schools?

Only the public ones are bound to follow civil rights legislation and are held accountable to the people.

The private-parochial ones can let in who they want to, and discriminate anyone based on race, religion, and economy.

Those school vouchers that Devos is pushing, will not make education better, it will bring our education system back to the 1950s.

[Richard]

So this recent ruling that's undoing the separation of church and state, means that they are going to take my tax dollars to fund religious indoctrination?

You know what the difference between public and private-parochial schools?

Only the public ones are bound to follow civil rights legislation and are held accountable to the people.

The private-parochial ones can let in who they want to, and discriminate anyone based on race, religion, and economy.

Those school vouchers that Devos is pushing, will not make education better, it will bring our education system back to the 1950s.

Last I heard civil rights is federal,so private school or not they are enforced.

Discrimination is illegal no matter what the situation.

The differences in charter/private schools verses public is charter/private schools are more strict when it comes to control,you do not get away with disrespecting the teaching staff like in public school.

The kick back is because if you want to attend private school then you have to follow the rules and some do not like that.

The biggest example is with the wearing of uniforms,charters have been sued because of new enrollees coming from public school feel they should be exempt from wearing them.

Why would one want to apply for and receive a voucher for a chance at a better education but then want to change the rules to mimic the same situation that you just came from.

Sorry to rain on ones parade but this has already been in effect sense 2012 so you might want to remove Mrs DeVos from the equation.President Trump was not in office at the time either so no need to try and blame him either.

What has changed is the finial decision is now left up to the individual states to decide,where the previous administration was forceing states through the courts to accept the voucher program.

There have been religious based schools around for decades,most charge,so how is it an attack on the poor if they can recieve a voucher in order to attend a better preforming then they are currently attending?

Some do prefer to keep em dumb and poor,why break the cycle.

Both of my granddaughters have been going to split pay voucher charter schools for over 8 years,they are Hispanic and I see no race based discrimination and they have somebody from pretty much every country in the earth in thier classes.

Why are they in charters? Because the public schools are out of control here with thugs that feel that they have the right to disrespect everybody including the female students.

Times have changed,if I had ever disrespected a teacher in school I would have had my ass beat by every adult on the way home then still had to face my parents,it just was not something that you would even had thought about doing.

[EastsideAl]

What a horrible decision. A foot in the door victory tor the fundies and other religious fanatics. I can't believe that any reasonable person who actually believes in the 1st Amendment and the separation between church and state, and isn't themselves either a religious fanatic, or has a vested interest here [[DeVos and other religious "charter" school profiteers, the Roman Catholic church establishment), would celebrate such a decision.

[Atticus]

So this recent ruling that's undoing the separation of church and state, means that they are going to take my tax dollars to fund religious indoctrination?

You know what the difference between public and private-parochial schools?

Only the public ones are bound to follow civil rights legislation and are held accountable to the people.

The private-parochial ones can let in who they want to, and discriminate anyone based on race, religion, and economy.

Those school vouchers that Devos is pushing, will not make education better, it will bring our education system back to the 1950s.

The end goal is much worse.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of blurring the church and state separation further, but I will at least admit that most religious schools do try to give their students a good education [[albeit with the religious message, the quasi-segregation that occurs in who gets to attend, and the ability to not have to follow all the rules that protect kids at public schools). But again, that being said, most religious schools do in fact try and give the students who do attend a good education.

The end goal of the DeVos policy is much more than getting church kids a cheaper private education. Their ultimate goal is owning "public" charter schools, ones where they can collect government tax dollars to "educate" kids by paying "teachers" minimum wage to supervise said kids in a room of 40 with an internet lecture. The ultimate goal is to provide as cheap of an education as possible so the charter school's CEO can cash in on the profits. It is a money grab, pure and simple.

The religious schools are just a step and a cover to achieve the ultimate goal. Throw a bone to church schools, get the religious institutions to back your legislation, pay off enough politicians to get your legislation passed, and voila... the money rolls in at the expense of the poor kids' education. That is the ultimate goal of the DeVos plan.

[EastsideAl]

Some do prefer to keep em dumb and poor,why break the cycle.

How vile, revolting, and insulting.

[Richard]

How vile, revolting, and insulting.

That is not my thought pattern,there is a lot of wasted minds trapped in the public school system through no fault of their own other then circumstances,I think everybody should get a chance to be all that they can be,but there are others that do not think the same way.

From bussing to school of choice there has always been pushback.

[Tig3rzhark]

For those who know their history, it took federal legislation in order for public schools to desegregate, and even then, it wasn't enough.

With public schools being financed by cost per pupil, public schools quickly lost money when those against integration decided to move to other districts that had more of a white majority.

Put in the Voucher program, instead of attempting to improving the public school system, american opinion would feel better off to discard the public school system in its entirety.

Choices would be left to corporate [[charter), private, parochial [[religious).

[Richard]

For those who know their history, it took federal legislation in order for public schools to desegregate, and even then, it wasn't enough.

With public schools being financed by cost per pupil, public schools quickly lost money when those against integration decided to move to other districts that had more of a white majority.

Put in the Voucher program, instead of attempting to improving the public school system, american opinion would feel better off to discard the public school system in its entirety.

Choices would be left to corporate [[charter), private, parochial [[religious).

So what is the answer for public schools?

They have a taxpayer revenue source but run as a quasi private organization with thier own governing board.

So they really have little accountability to the taxpayers or the local government.In theory they are a large charter school.

Why is it the local school boards always have these nice new multi million dollar administrative offices while the students are Sometimes in deplorable conditions.

We could throw billions in to rebuild the system but I do not see that happening because they are exempt from accountability.

Not trying to be disrespectful but it leaves two options,either remove those who disrupt to a seperate school or move those who want to learn to a seperate school.

That is what all of this is doing,it is moving those that want to learn which increases the level of those that do not in the public school which further erodes the existing public school system.

There are a lot of dedicated and good teachers that are in the public school system that are subjected to daily harassement and are unable to control the classroom for the best possible learning experience.

We tied thier hands then get upset when people want to leave the system for different options.

So it is either fix the public system or expand charters and other options.

Throwing money at the public school system will not fix a systematic problem in a time frame where generations are lost.

[southen]

Do conservatives actually pay attention to how charter schools in the city of Detroit actually do compared to their public counterparts? Hate to break it to you but they are the exact same except these for profit businesses are keeping a larger chunk of the funding for themselves and short changing the students. There needs to be a massive overhaul of the education system in this country, but the answer isn't to privatize, it is to change how they operate and to properly fund the schools in places like Detroit, not to further let them deteriorate because it is easier to send the kids to districts with higher property values.

[Tig3rzhark]

Do conservatives actually pay attention to how charter schools in the city of Detroit actually do compared to their public counterparts? Hate to break it to you but they are the exact same except these for profit businesses are keeping a larger chunk of the funding for themselves and short changing the students. There needs to be a massive overhaul of the education system in this country, but the answer isn't to privatize, it is to change how they operate and to properly fund the schools in places like Detroit, not to further let them deteriorate because it is easier to send the kids to districts with higher property values.

That's what's been going on lately.

People would go to other public schools in other districts if they couldn't afford private schools or go to parochial schools, at least the ones that are still left in Detroit.

On DDOT buses, posters of River Rouge public schools are posted so people who live in Detroit would register their kids there.

Detroit Public Schools are no angels and from the looks of it, any hopes for it look pretty grim.

[7miledog]

I sure hope a bunch of madrasas open up to take advantage of this funding opportunity. It will be quite rich to see the reaction of the American Taliban.

[archfan]

I sure hope a bunch of madrasas open up to take advantage of this funding opportunity. It will be quite rich to see the reaction of the American Taliban.

This is also where the Church of Satan steps in and asks for funding.

[Bham1982]

I sure hope a bunch of madrasas open up to take advantage of this funding opportunity. It will be quite rich to see the reaction of the American Taliban.

I REALLY hope this happens. I think the alt-right's collective heads will explode.

The U.S. has got to be the only first world country in history that is hell-bent on destroying public education. It's really unbelievable.

[Meddle]

I think we're getting slightly off-track with the discussion here. This case was about a religious school getting state supplied discount/special pricing for recycled, shredded tires to cover a playground surface. It may have even been free to qualifying applicants. Other states have similar programs. There are rules about who qualifies, but they may include privately run facilities like apartment complexes and in some cases homeowners.

If a religious facility can qualify for free or discounted state supplied aid, they need to pay the same property taxes everyone else who qualifies for the programs do.

I'm not sure how or if the greater discussion of charter schools being good or bad fits in here.

The question is about whether or not church based schools like St. Marys should be able to qualify for programs like this without paying property taxes.

[1953]

I just read the court ruling, and believe the whole case could have been avoided if the Department of Natural Resources had just developed its tire recycling program directly with the public schools of Missouri. Thusly, this case will have little bearing on the larger debate, as well because the court does not examine the question of whether Missouri's policy violated the Establishment Clause.

1953