Historic Apartments at Cass and Henry to be Demolished by Olympia/Ilitch

[Bham1982]

Little Caesars is my favorite pizza. Beats out even some sit down restaurants in my mind. Am I crazy?

Yes.

And nice to see that the oft-promised "stadium spin-off development" is kicking into high gear. Those gravel parking lots will be a solid replacement for high density prewar apartment buildings...

[MicrosoftFan]

There is a big concern for parking. When you have three stadiums and many theaters clustered in a small area there are bound to be problems. I'm worried there won't be enough parking.

Now that's not me personally speaking, but talking to my fellow downriver suburbanites, that is their main concern about the new District Detroit. Are their fears unfounded or not?

[Junjie]

There is a big concern for parking. When you have three stadiums and many theaters clustered in a small area there are bound to be problems. I'm worried there won't be enough parking.

Now that's not me personally speaking, but talking to my fellow downriver suburbanites, that is their main concern about the new District Detroit. Are their fears unfounded or not?

In one sense, their fears are perfectly justified. Parking will get increasingly difficult/expensive as Detroit continues to re-densify. That's fine. Parking right now in Detroit is incredibly cheap and incredibly easy compared to any moderately successful city. Of course, the only way to mitigate this over the long term [[assuming very positive long-term trends for the city, which is not a given) is to build real transit so that people can buy a $2-$5 ticket to ride into town if they don't want to hunt for a space or pay the $25.

On the other hand, their fears are also BS. There is a massive, multi-block parking crater within a ten minute walk of all of the stadiums and theaters, and it's probably going to be there for at least the next ten years. Go park there. What's the problem?

Edit: I love this topic so much I whipped up a new map. Orange is a parking structure, red is a surface lot. The blue square outlines the buildings that need to be destroyed in order to solve the parking crisis. Yes, I stopped outlining lots after awhile since it just gets depressing.

[emu steve]

Your graphic should be called: "Motor City Madness."

But no one should be surprised. For a city of its current [[or fmr. size) Detroit has I assume the worst public transportation and a very small number of underground parking spaces.

You call it is a parking lot mess [[or whatever term one wishes) but it is really a public transportation crisis with parking lots, garages, etc. as its symptoms.

Wonder if Wikipedia has an article on American cities and subway lines as one looks at N.Y., S.F., Boston, D.C. Chicago, etc. etc.

I'll remind folks that D.C. has very few surface lots downtown. They have all been eaten up for development. Instead folks take the subway or pay big bucks to park underground.

At the peak of its popularity the D.C. area subway system carried around 750K trips per weekday. Huge events would hit 1M+. QLine does 5K per day. Drop in the bucket.

Anytime, Detroit and S.E. MI governments want to build an underground subway going along [[parallel to) Woodward and branching out wheel and spoke along Jefferson, Gratiot, Michigan Ave., Grand River, etc. they can solve the parking lot problem it created... Let all of the folks from Oakland County hop on a subway and zoom to downtown and leave their cars behind for their commute to work.

I guess Wikipedia refers to the system I describe as 'radial' with all the spokes going out from downtown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit

[emu steve]

In one sense, their fears are perfectly justified. Parking will get increasingly difficult/expensive as Detroit continues to re-densify. That's fine. Parking right now in Detroit is incredibly cheap and incredibly easy compared to any moderately successful city. Of course, the only way to mitigate this over the long term [[assuming very positive long-term trends for the city, which is not a given) is to build real transit so that people can buy a $2-$5 ticket to ride into town if they don't want to hunt for a space or pay the $25.

On the other hand, their fears are also BS. There is a massive, multi-block parking crater within a ten minute walk of all of the stadiums and theaters, and it's probably going to be there for at least the next ten years. Go park there. What's the problem?

Edit: I love this topic so much I whipped up a new map. Orange is a parking structure, red is a surface lot. The blue square outlines the buildings that need to be destroyed in order to solve the parking crisis. Yes, I stopped outlining lots after awhile since it just gets depressing.

Looking at your graphic and 'disaggregating it':

1). Most of the surface lots east of Woodward around Gratiot will probably be gone in say 5 - 10 years. Gilbert will see to that.

2). I suspect 3 surface lots ringing Comerica will be gone in 5 years.

3). Many of the surface lots west of Woodward and south of Michigan Ave. will be gone in say 5 - 10 years. There is activity in that 'quadrant' of downtown happening and planned.

4). The fourth quadrant, west of Woodward and north of Michigan is the most forlorn and will be the last to re-develop. Progress is coming along slowly there.

Rome wasn't built in a day and downtown needs another 10 years to be what most would like it to be. I'd suspect the number of surface lots will be reduced by 1/3 or more.

[emu steve]

There is a big concern for parking. When you have three stadiums and many theaters clustered in a small area there are bound to be problems. I'm worried there won't be enough parking.

Now that's not me personally speaking, but talking to my fellow downriver suburbanites, that is their main concern about the new District Detroit. Are their fears unfounded or not?

Actually, your fellow suburbanites are on to something.

Will Wings or Pistons fans want to walk a half-mile at night when it is 10 degrees to get to a distant parking lot?

Big difference between that and parking near the Town Pump for a baseball game in Summer.

As far as parking around Ford Field, I don't expect LCA patrons to park near Ford Field and hike to LCA.

[Junjie]

Steve, to each of your posts -

1. Yes, you know I support additional transit. More occupied buildings is better for justifying transit than more parking lots.

2. Hope it's as you say. Gilbert is planning to build on a few shortly and that's why I didn't color in Monroe Block or Hudson's. If this is the trend, why create more lots now?

3. The walk from the Clifford Street Parking Crater to the LCA is shorter than the walk to Comerica past the Fox. From the north end of the crater it's 900 feet to LCA. If [[able-bodied) people can't handle that they should probably stay home.

[emu steve]

In one sense, their fears are perfectly justified. Parking will get increasingly difficult/expensive as Detroit continues to re-densify. That's fine. Parking right now in Detroit is incredibly cheap and incredibly easy compared to any moderately successful city. Of course, the only way to mitigate this over the long term [[assuming very positive long-term trends for the city, which is not a given) is to build real transit so that people can buy a $2-$5 ticket to ride into town if they don't want to hunt for a space or pay the $25.

On the other hand, their fears are also BS. There is a massive, multi-block parking crater within a ten minute walk of all of the stadiums and theaters, and it's probably going to be there for at least the next ten years. Go park there. What's the problem?

Edit: I love this topic so much I whipped up a new map. Orange is a parking structure, red is a surface lot. The blue square outlines the buildings that need to be destroyed in order to solve the parking crisis. Yes, I stopped outlining lots after awhile since it just gets depressing.

BTW, I see a simple explanation for a big problem.

When I was in Detroit two months ago I talked with a parking lot operator.

It seems that the Olympia group does NOT own all of the land at Montcalm/Clifford which I assumed was to be a parking garage [[that was posted on this forum by MULTIPLE posters).

A parking garage there would have been close enough and solved the need for close in [[to LCA) parking spaces.

Anyway, another plan which goes up in smoke because of problems acquiring land.

BTW, weren't there supposed to be townhomes at the S.E. corner of Cass and Temple, but alas the Olympia group has NOT gained control of all of the needed land with a holdout owner of a single house.

So we have holdout owners by Montcalm/Clifford, Clifford/Henry area [[two liquor stores), and a house near Cass/Temple.

Gilbert-Gores are lucky: They are dealing with WC and Detroit who own all of the necessary land by the fail-jail site and the site for a new criminal justice system. Sure as hell a lot better than dealing with dozen of private property owners...

[southen]

The reason people go after you steve is because in all of those posts you just made you placed blame on the city for poor transit and hold out land owners and not once mentioned the Ilitch organizations backwards approach to urban planning.

[emu steve]

The reason people go after you steve is because in all of those posts you just made you placed blame on the city for poor transit and hold out land owners and not once mentioned the Ilitch organizations backwards approach to urban planning.

Sorry, southen, but...

The folks in Detroit and S.E. MI should take a lesson from Catholic liturgy: "Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa." Blame is squarely on their shoulders.

When I lived in Detroit, S.E. MI, etc. I thought nothing of the problems with a car-centric city without good public transit, etc.

Then I moved to D.C. and saw what first rate public transit is and how poor Detroit and S.E. MI's is and the problems it causes as described in the graphic above. There would be days when I was working I wouldn't even drive my car. I put 5 - 6K miles / year on my car.

As far as land use: I was assuming and hoping that the Ilitches would have been able to build a parking garage at Montcalm/Clifford. I assumed that would have solved a lot of parking problems [[fair walk to LCA, fair walk to Comerica, etc.).

That didn't happen and the ramifications aren't nice. I wish those buildings could have been rehabbed.

I still hold out post, like SammyS's post, that in time maybe a parking garage will be built and those surface parking lots can be re-purposed.

One good parking garage can replace a number of surface parking lots.

[Zads07]

Protest is happening today in front of the buildings. Motor City Muckraker is covering the protests.

Yes EMU Steve, Detroit has public transit problems, but that doesn't mean Ilitch should demolish buildings for parking lots. That's all this company has done since starting on the arena district. This should come as no surprise to no one.

[drjeff]

Given that the Lions and Tigers can play at the same time, totalling over 100,000 fans in attendance, and parking is not an issue, why would parking for a 20,000 seat arena across the street be even remotely a problem? There were days when all three teams played at the same time and there was still not a parking problem. The two giant new structures adjacent to LCA probably weren't even needed and are just a source of revenue.

[southen]

Steve, you are changing to subject. Nobody is here staying Detroit has great transit, but you are deflecting so you can avoid actually discussing the Ilitch organizations policies towards development. There are an insane amount of surface lots within a short distance of the arena and they have not proposed garages on any of them.

What, based on their past, makes you think they are going to start building a dense neighborhood around the arena when they have spent millions on demolishing buildings and landscaping parking lots? They talk about neighborhood building but want to tear down perfectly good structures to place a parking lot directly across from another parking lot which is now two blocks from two additional brand new lots.

But hey, lets talk about transit so you don't have to acknowledge that your love affair with the family could be misguided as they continue to do what they have always done... tear down buildings and build surface parking.

[emu steve]

Southen,

Actually I wished those apartment buildings would be saved and a parking garage would be built at Clifford and Montcalm.

Truth be told, I don't like surface parking in urban areas. There is very little in D.C. I just don't let it get my bowels in an uproar.

I love seeing the few remaining surface lots near Nationals Park turned into apartment buildings.

Folks have to be crazy to drive to Nationals Park. Other than two parking garages, not much parking.

[southen]

I think you just Trump'd this entire debate. "There is blame to go around everywhere... transit!" You have also decried the loss of these buildings without actually placing blame on the person responsible for it.

[Gistok]

While others are filling up empty lots with buildings in the city center [[Gilbert, Gores, Holtzman, et al).... Ilitch's keep creating new ones...

[archfan]

...
Edit: I love this topic so much I whipped up a new map. Orange is a parking structure, red is a surface lot. The blue square outlines the buildings that need to be destroyed in order to solve the parking crisis. Yes, I stopped outlining lots after awhile since it just gets depressing.

Great map. I can see how tearing those buildings down will help alleviate the parking problems. They ought to be able to get 20-30 cars in there.

[emu steve]

Great map. I can see how tearing those buildings down will help alleviate the parking problems. They ought to be able to get 20-30 cars in there.

I agree and I thought the same. It makes no sense as a parking lot.

As SammyS wondered: What's the long game along Cass?

Is it really parking or is it temporary until residential is built there?

[ABetterDetroit]

I know that some idolize people with money and there is no changing that but in this case it is Tigers and Redwing ownership prestige with the billions of dollars. Little Ceasers doesn't really bring a lot of reverence by itself, it's the wealth plus the sports teams that bring the love.

Just for a hypothetical argument, let's say Matty Moroun was the one demolishing all these buildings making a surface parking desert out of whole parts of downtown and the cass corridor. How much stronger would the public outcry be? In other words, how much does owning the sports teams make this deurbanization process okay?

Myself, I see it as so destructive that I don't think any other family or corporate body could pull it off. Anyone else and this neverending atrocity would cause outrage with everyone save the haters.

[Hermod]

Like in Washington DC.

When the most profitable use for the land is a building, the parking lot will be replaced by a building. No one in their right mind would have a surface parking lot if they could turn big bucks by creating a building.

The reality is that buildings don't get built in Detroit unless there are massive government subsidies. In DC, the buildings get built without subsidies because there is a great demand for them.

If you want an Illitch parking lot turned into a 30 story apartment building, get your wallet out and Mr Illitch will be more than happy to sell you the land.

[emu steve]

Like in Washington DC.

When the most profitable use for the land is a building, the parking lot will be replaced by a building. No one in their right mind would have a surface parking lot if they could turn big bucks by creating a building.

The reality is that buildings don't get built in Detroit unless there are massive government subsidies. In DC, the buildings get built without subsidies because there is a great demand for them.

If you want an Illitch parking lot turned into a 30 story apartment building, get your wallet out and Mr Illitch will be more than happy to sell you the land.

Yep!!! Completely agree.

Yep, in places like NYC, D.C., etc. parking lots are gobbled up like Pac Man and up goes a big building.

When I see surface parking lot I see a case where there isn't much demand for that land.

In a Detnews article today, apparently the Ilitch org paid 8M for two apt buildings on N. Henry, west of Cass. No one pays 8M for land for 50 parking spaces... It defies financial sense.

[ABetterDetroit]

Like in Washington DC.When the most profitable use for the land is a building, the parking lot will be replaced by a building. No one in their right mind would have a surface parking lot if they could turn big bucks by creating a building.The reality is that buildings don't get built in Detroit unless there are massive government subsidies. In DC, the buildings get built without subsidies because there is a great demand for them.If you want an Illitch parking lot turned into a 30 story apartment building, get your wallet out and Mr Illitch will be more than happy to sell you the land.

Fair enough point that I believe in.

Capitalism.

Some of the very best and greatest things in the world have been built under that idea. It is a beautiful thing sometimes.

Sure is none of that going on in your example. Washington D.C. has a property tax rate 600% LOWER than Detroit.

So then your "massive government subsidies" come into play in Detroit. I call them "picking the winners and losers" but your version is correct equally.

Who has received the largest "massive government subsidies" in Detroit to date? That would be the one and same, Ilitch family.

What land have they ever sold? The question has been asked here many, many times, I have yet to ever see an answer that they ever have. It would be fair to assume that based on the history that the Ilitches are not at all "happy to sell," in fact, I contend just the opposite. They would not be interested in entertaining offers and would turn down a handsome profit in hand because they are fearful of competition and would be even more fearful of someone making them look more useless than they are with a piece of land they USED to own. Just an opinion.

Pride, it can be a bitch sometimes.

[southen]

All I have to say to the Ilitch's not developing is look at the GAR building. They had the rights to that for years but a development group that has a billionaire backer didn't have the vision to put restaurants in the building and activate the upper floors for offices? It took a small firm to come up with that? I believe in part because of the GAR, DTE built Beacon Park and now you have interest in that part of town that didn't exist because once building was fixed up.

The Ilitch organization has zero interest in developing anything but government financed stadiums. They had to team up with other people to fix up the properties they announced a month ago. They buy land for cheap which gives them control and leverage with little overhead outside of a security guard to patrol the acres of empty lots they own.

[Gistok]

I tend to agree Southen.... the Ilitch's are repeating their acres of parking arund their sports venue, just like they did with Comerica Park. They will likely have similar results... on non-game days it will be a massive dead zone. Just look at how difficult it has been for them to get restaurants into the Fox Buildings. With what they had in the past it was either feast [[game/Fox performance days) or famine [[nothing going on at the venues). Businesses just can't survive in that type of climate. Employees that only work one day out of three will just look elsewhere.

The arena district will be an enclosed fortress surrounded by non-pedestrian friendly acres of parking. It's just another self fulfilling prophecy.

[emu steve]

I tend to agree Southen.... the Ilitch's are repeating their acres of parking arund their sports venue, just like they did with Comerica Park. They will likely have similar results... on non-game days it will be a massive dead zone. Just look at how difficult it has been for them to get restaurants into the Fox Buildings. With what they had in the past it was either feast [[game/Fox performance days) or famine [[nothing going on at the venues). Businesses just can't survive in that type of climate. Employees that only work one day out of three will just look elsewhere.

The arena district will be an enclosed fortress surrounded by non-pedestrian friendly acres of parking. It's just another self fulfilling prophecy.

" They will likely have similar results... on non-game days it will be a massive dead zone."

This should be interesting in that there won't be that many non-game days. Comerica or LCA should be in usage about 250 days per week, about the same is the number of standard work days in a year.

One of my constant themes has been that the District Detroit concept is a mini-city with many commercial establishments, residences [[those attached to LCA and others ringing it like Hotel America), etc., WSU school of Business, etc.

Hopefully in 12 - 18 months enough will be in place to see the transformation. We will be in 'uncharted territory.'

No other city in the U.S. [[not NYC, L.A., BOS, CLE, etc.) will have a sports and entertainment district like it... [MLB/NHL/NBA alone should be 175+ events per year.]

Should be about 5 - 6M patrons per year.