Historic Apartments at Cass and Henry to be Demolished by Olympia/Ilitch

[Gistok]

Lowell, these buildings probably shouldn't be called 'historic'. I don't think Washington nor MLK ever slept there. A better term might be 'heritage'. That they are. I wish godspeed to anyone trying to stop their demolition.

Most of Detroit's old "historic" churches had little more than prayers, weddings, baptisms and funerals, but they're all historic.

You just have a different definition of historic, as compared to folks who find saving old buildings beneficial.

They call it "The National Trust For Historic Preservation" for a reason besides one that comes to mind for you. But it's just a difference of how things get labeled....

[ABetterDetroit]

I assume we agree to disagree.

A soccer stadium is a high priority for Detroit at either the fail jail site or ideally within the sports and entertainment district.

This site [[here) isn't Plan A, but it could be Plan B.

Riverfront is also appropriate site.

No one, except for some posters here, don't want it in some obscure location.

Sports facilities aren't like a warehouse where it can be dumped in some undesirable location. They ought to be near parking, eateries, etc.

Gilbert and Gores aren't going to spend 200 - 250M to put a state of the art stadium in a rundown area.

Ok Right back at you.

No one, besides emu Steve, thinks that "Riverfront is also appropriate site"

It is insane after almost 4 decades of the Joe to even think of putting another stadium on the river. 2 things that the Joe was heavily criticized about above all others combined, Why the hell did they build it on the river? And what idiot decided to build these death defying knock your teeth out stairs?

I support an MLS team in Detroit, but putting their venue on the river is a stupid waste of a valuable limited resource on a large scale.

People like being on the river. In public places like parks, and in homes and offices that have river views. A stadium would be a colossal waste of what waterfront property has, a spectacular view.

[emu steve]

Got the idea of a riverfront stadium from this site. Wasn't my original idea.

[southen]

Got the idea of a riverfront stadium from this site. Wasn't my original idea.

You are still touting it as a good idea and option despite it being a terrible use of the riverfront and the opposite of what they are trying to accomplish.

[archfan]

Lowell, these buildings probably shouldn't be called 'historic'. I don't think Washington nor MLK ever slept there. A better term might be 'heritage'. That they are. I wish godspeed to anyone trying to stop their demolition.

Historic means something important in history. Historical refers to anything of the past. Unless we find out that the apartments were the Purple Gang's headquarters or that Ty Cobb lived there, the apartments are historical. </pedantry>

[emu steve]

You are still touting it as a good idea and option despite it being a terrible use of the riverfront and the opposite of what they are trying to accomplish.

Actually I'm not.

Maybe I should have been more clear, but I thought that Gilbert/Gores [[or others) indicated that if they didn't get the fail jail site they'd get a site along the river or another Midtown site.

With the help of Google [[Mann is with Detroit FC. The part I bolded is from the author of the newspaper article.):

Mann doesn’t think that Detroit’s MLS bid hinges on the proposed stadium being built on the jail site.

"I think there’s other parcels to be had,” he said. “They need 10 acres, and I think they can find that elsewhere, so I think that gets resolved. As long as they have the finances and the wherewithal to build a stadium, then I think things move along.”

The riverfront is believed to be one such option for a stadium, as well as vacant lots west of the Fox Theatre.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/20...-bid/97248108/

Folks like Gilbert/Gores understand the real estate mantra: "Location, location, location." The location has to be desirable, not some crappy land the city is trying to get rid of that no one wants.

That said, they will NOT 'dump' a 250M stadium next to a burned out factory.

They absolutely understand that a sports facility needs to be in a vibrant area and the mistaken days of putting it in some corn field or somewhere like near Metro airport where land and it happens to be near a freeway is over.

My question about the lots west of the Fox: there were problems with site assembly for an arena will there still be problems for a soccer stadium?

[Honky Tonk]

Actually I'm not.

Maybe I should have been more clear, but I thought that Gilbert/Gores [[or others) indicated that if they didn't get the fail jail site they'd get a site along the river or another Midtown site.

With the help of Google [[Mann is with Detroit FC. The part I bolded is from the author of the newspaper article.):

Mann doesn’t think that Detroit’s MLS bid hinges on the proposed stadium being built on the jail site.

"I think there’s other parcels to be had,” he said. “They need 10 acres, and I think they can find that elsewhere, so I think that gets resolved. As long as they have the finances and the wherewithal to build a stadium, then I think things move along.”

The riverfront is believed to be one such option for a stadium, as well as vacant lots west of the Fox Theatre.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/20...-bid/97248108/

Folks like Gilbert/Gores understand the real estate mantra: "Location, location, location." The location has to be desirable, not some crappy land the city is trying to get rid of that no one wants.

That said, they will NOT 'dump' a 250M stadium next to a burned out factory.

They absolutely understand that a sports facility needs to be in a vibrant area and the mistaken days of putting it in some corn field or somewhere like near Metro airport where land and it happens to be near a freeway is over.

My question about the lots west of the Fox: there were problems with site assembly for an arena will there still be problems for a soccer stadium?

You mean Detroit might not get a 4th stadium?!?!? OMG, say it ain't so, Steve! WTF am I supposed to do with my life if I can't watch sports?!?!?

[MicrosoftFan]

I think people aren't realizing that if District Detroit never happened, we would still have a sea of gravel parking lots surrounded by desolate structures. Ultimately the LCS will benefit the cass corridor by bridging the gap from Shinola area to Downtown. Not to mention the new residential, restaurants, etc.

Detroit is still going to need parking because we are a car based city. You can't add another 50k sports fans to downtown without adding a good amount of parking. What we need to do is accept that and try to push for Z-style street level retail garages that enhance the urban atmosphere.

Also, it is likely that the "historic" apartment buildings will never get remodeled. They will be too expensive to fix and some developer will knock them down and put a gravel parking lot there. If we want to encourage a densely populated area around Cass Park/LCS, it's not going to start in some rundown apartment buildings that look like they were plucked out of 70s Harlem.

PS. Why is everyone so concerned about preserving the cass corridor the way it was in the 80s-90s? I like it when buildings are occupied and drug deals aren't taking place in broad daylight.

[Richard]

Most sports stadiums are dead space unless a game is going on anyways,lots of space sitting there doing nothing and collecting tax captures so also not paying much to the city other then maybe a livability aspect for those who are into sports,not so much if one is not.

Out of a year there is what? A total of 60 days use? Everybody else seems to have figured out how to blend the old with the new,maybe there are no more creative thought processes,I thought the whole argument was that they were actually creating a entertainment district over and above the sports aspect,if that was true then the buildings could be incorporated into that.

This kinda merges with the other thread about the guy with the bar,I can see his concerns because now the way it is looking,they want to clear everything and build a self contained entity,kinda like the Disney thought pattern,get them locked in to capitalize on every dollar.

Who is going to want to fight crowds to go to a bar when everything they need will be contained within the arena.

The further this goes on the more it is looking like the whole entertainment aspect was a ploy to gain support for the tax benefits.

[1953]

"I think people aren't realizing that if District Detroit never happened, we would still have a sea of gravel parking lots surrounded by desolate structures."

You are making a counterfactual argument, which is a logical fallacy. If the stadium hadn't been in the works, we may not have had a sea of gravel parking lots where the stadium will stand. Its been variously pointed out that the sea of gravel is, partly, the result of years of land acquisition by Olympia Development. To be fair, we may still have ended up with a sea of gravel lots no matter what happened with the arena land acquisition, because you can't predict how the future will change when you change aspects of the past [[as Marty McFly learned first hand in Back to the Future).

[dtowncitylover]

I think people aren't realizing that if District Detroit never happened, we would still have a sea of gravel parking lots surrounded by desolate structures. Ultimately the LCS will benefit the cass corridor by bridging the gap from Shinola area to Downtown. Not to mention the new residential, restaurants, etc.

Detroit is still going to need parking because we are a car based city. You can't add another 50k sports fans to downtown without adding a good amount of parking. What we need to do is accept that and try to push for Z-style street level retail garages that enhance the urban atmosphere.

Also, it is likely that the "historic" apartment buildings will never get remodeled. They will be too expensive to fix and some developer will knock them down and put a gravel parking lot there. If we want to encourage a densely populated area around Cass Park/LCS, it's not going to start in some rundown apartment buildings that look like they were plucked out of 70s Harlem.

PS. Why is everyone so concerned about preserving the cass corridor the way it was in the 80s-90s? I like it when buildings are occupied and drug deals aren't taking place in broad daylight.

The entire post is one big NO.

Why are we still hellbent on making sure suburbanites have their parking spaces? [[Rhetorical question, I know the powers that be...) How about we make them use public transit? One way to do that is to make the city less about cars and more about the people. So if you limit parking options the more residents [[many of them those "white hipsters") quit the car and use public transit and the more likely suburbanites either use public transit, carpool, Uber in, etc...again the city is not the Illitch's suburban playground, we can't continue letting them do whatever the hell they want.

[dtowncitylover]

Also, I'm still trying to find the legal order that requires Detroit to be a "car town"? Anyone? anyone?

[Richard]

They could build big massive parking lots outside the city for park n ride and use event busses. That probably would not fly though because some would not want to see theses big empty lots that will only be used once in awhile.

You have to admit it is kinda hard to prefer not to see Cass stuck in the 90s but yet expect the rest of the city to remain stuck in the 90s when it comes to no options but a sea of parking.

I am not getting the whole non support of mass transit options while forcing the host to bear the costs of the lots in lost revenues.

It does not seem very fair,you pay to build the playground so I can have fun then go back home when I am done.Of course I probably think wierd anyways.

[MicrosoftFan]

Also, I'm still trying to find the legal order that requires Detroit to be a "car town"? Anyone? anyone?

We aren't required to be a car town. But you can't just take away all the parking and freeways because frankly the public transportation options aren't there. We will have to begin building a BRT and LRT network in order to move away from our car based past. Thus, new developments will be car based for around the next 20 years until a viable public transit network is established.

[dtowncitylover]

We aren't required to be a car town. But you can't just take away all the parking and freeways because frankly the public transportation options aren't there. We will have to begin building a BRT and LRT network in order to move away from our car based past. Thus, new developments will be car based for around the next 20 years until a viable public transit network is established.

Or how about we push people to vote for transit because they see their parking lots disappear? Therefore, if more people are riding RefleX, more funds equals more money for the service and we could get a better schedule and such...

I'm not saying parking isn't needed but continuing to tear down historical buildings isn't needed either. These will add more life to the neighborhood than any parking structure could ever do.

[emu steve]

Also, I'm still trying to find the legal order that requires Detroit to be a "car town"? Anyone? anyone?

Detroit as a 'car city' made a LOT of choices decades ago about suburbanization, cars over subways and other forms of rapid public transit, etc. and the community is paying the piper.

The 'solution' was to 'let' employment centers, people, sports facilities, etc. head to the suburbs and let the streets there deal with the traffic.

Now folks have decided that downtowns are 'cool' and suburbs, 'not too much.'

So employment, sport facilities, housing, etc. are moving into or near the downtowns across America.

The cities which have very good public transportation will be fine. Other cities will have traffic and parking issues.

I would love to see 'journey to work' data for people working in the central business district for say Detroit, NYC, D.C. Boston, Chicago, etc. [[all older cities. I deliberately avoided cities like Phoenix, Houston, etc.)

What percentage of employees in the CBD typically take public transportation to work daily?

Would Detroit rank lowest of the cities I cited?

[MicrosoftFan]

Or how about we push people to vote for transit because they see their parking lots disappear? Therefore, if more people are riding RefleX, more funds equals more money for the service and we could get a better schedule.

I could talk about how my fellow suburbanites won't ride the bus for ages, but here are a few of their concerns-

1. They don't know where to get on. They like the Q Line and rail because there is a specific station and no stops in between. BRT would solve this my making limited stop services.

2. It takes too long. Riding the bus from the suburbs into the city easily takes 2x the time that it would take to drive. And if they are taking smart they will likely have to make a transfer to get into downtown.

3. Frankly, they don't like the bus riding populace. They're scared of poor people. The bus has a stigma that will not fade in the minds of Gen X suburbanites for a long time.

So if you're presented with an option that is takes twice as long as driving, is full of people that scare you, likely requires you to make a transfer, dirty, slow, and is generally not looked fondly upon by you and your neighbors, you're probably going to pick driving your car, aren't you?

[[Also, they don't want to pay the tax money for transit.)

[Richard]

It becomes a catch 22 when one gives tax captures to build a stadium which could have been the funding for more mass transit.

I am not into the us verses them aspect and believe everybody should be able to live where they wish without recourse but this whole thing is the city and its residents sacrificeing a lot for a stadium not only in revenues,but a lot of its historic core and the not very nice looking parking lots.

It should really be a give and take situation.

[emu steve]

Most sports stadiums are dead space unless a game is going on anyways,lots of space sitting there doing nothing and collecting tax captures so also not paying much to the city other then maybe a livability aspect for those who are into sports,not so much if one is not.

Out of a year there is what? A total of 60 days use? Everybody else seems to have figured out how to blend the old with the new,maybe there are no more creative thought processes,I thought the whole argument was that they were actually creating a entertainment district over and above the sports aspect,if that was true then the buildings could be incorporated into that.

This kinda merges with the other thread about the guy with the bar,I can see his concerns because now the way it is looking,they want to clear everything and build a self contained entity,kinda like the Disney thought pattern,get them locked in to capitalize on every dollar.

Who is going to want to fight crowds to go to a bar when everything they need will be contained within the arena.

The further this goes on the more it is looking like the whole entertainment aspect was a ploy to gain support for the tax benefits.

Richard,

Wasn't the grand design of all of 'District Detroit' and also Brush Park is that if District Detroit was more than simply an arena, and QLine, and Brush Park that a 'whole new city' would grow out of the weeds between Fisher/MLKjr-Mack/Cass/Brush.

I've been saying until I'm blue in the face, that we now KNOW plans for over 1,000 new housing units at The Scott, City Modern, and the various Ilitich buildings [[Eddystone, Hotel American, Alhambra, and the housing adjacent to the arena).

There will be 500 - 750 WSU students there during the day when neighborhoods are typically dead [[while workers are at work and kids are at school in residential neighborhoods).

Probably 1,500 - 2,000 people are moving into the neighborhood.

How can anyone say that the arena will be a big white elephant sitting in the middle of nothingness?????

The EXACT OPPOSITE is happening. Five years ago, the area I delineated what a big nothingness. Urban decay at it worst.

[MicrosoftFan]

If anything, the LCS site was a ghost town 5 years ago. It was only used for parking during Tigers games. So there you have it, Illitchsceptics, a new development on old empty parking lots.

Also, can "Illitchsceptics" be a new word?

[dtowncitylover]

I could talk about how my fellow suburbanites won't ride the bus for ages, but here are a few of their concerns-

1. They don't know where to get on. They like the Q Line and rail because there is a specific station and no stops in between. BRT would solve this my making limited stop services.

2. It takes too long. Riding the bus from the suburbs into the city easily takes 2x the time that it would take to drive. And if they are taking smart they will likely have to make a transfer to get into downtown.

3. Frankly, they don't like the bus riding populace. They're scared of poor people. The bus has a stigma that will not fade in the minds of Gen X suburbanites for a long time.

So if you're presented with an option that is takes twice as long as driving, is full of people that scare you, likely requires you to make a transfer, dirty, slow, and is generally not looked fondly upon by you and your neighbors, you're probably going to pick driving your car, aren't you?

[[Also, they don't want to pay the tax money for transit.)

1) Then they can get/download a schedule either in paper or on the numerous apps that now have such info.

2) Then they can plan ahead.

3) The QLine will hopefully change this. The Qline is not any sort of protective bubble to the fragility of suburbanites in the city. And since it's free, any street people are free to use it as well. And when we mix together face to face instead of mixing in traffic car to car and not knowing the people around us, we become much better at knowing each other's humanity.

[MicrosoftFan]

1) Then they can get/download a schedule either in paper or on the numerous apps that now have such info.

2) Then they can plan ahead.

3) The QLine will hopefully change this. The Qline is not any sort of protective bubble to the fragility of suburbanites in the city. And since it's free, any street people are free to use it as well. And when we mix together face to face instead of mixing in traffic car to car and not knowing the people around us, we become much better at knowing each other's humanity.

I agree. Q Line is changing a lot of people's attitudes about transit. Reflex would help too, but it isn't advertised enough and doesn't go to any Western or Southern suburbs. Maybe if the local news people ran a story on reflex every. single. day. like the Q line people would know about it.

[emu steve]

It becomes a catch 22 when one gives tax captures to build a stadium which could have been the funding for more mass transit.

I am not into the us verses them aspect and believe everybody should be able to live where they wish without recourse but this whole thing is the city and its residents sacrificeing a lot for a stadium not only in revenues,but a lot of its historic core and the not very nice looking parking lots.

It should really be a give and take situation.

I wonder about the 'Tax capture' vs Mass transit [[or something else).

In the thread of QLine, Professor Scott verified that NO general fund dollars are going to build, operate, etc. the QLine. Ms. Smith, first grade teacher, isn't buying her students books using her money as school dollars were diverted to the QLine.

The NEXT QUESTION:

Are general fund monies going to support building of LCA? Fair question.

Let's assume the arena cost DDA 600M over 30 years, principal and interest, much like a 30-year mortgage on a house.

Where is the 20M annual payment going to come from?

1). There could be as many as 3M annual ticketed patrons to LCA [[150 dates x 20K per event). If there is a 'ticket surcharge' [[think this is common). The Wings/Pistons could combine for more than 1.5M patrons annually. 90 - 100 events x say 17,500 = say 1.6M. Take 2.5 - 3M patrons and multiple by say $3 per tix and we are easily talking roughly 8 - 9M dollars annually.

2). I believe I read the city expects to collect over 4M annually in non-resident income taxes for events which are now at LCA instead of the Palace. Steph Curry will have to pay non-resident inc tax for the game[[s) he plays at LCA. Visiting NHL players had to pay in the past and future. Nothing changed there.

3). And there is the TIF bit where business in the development area have agreed to pay extra taxes. Those monies will be paid by GM, Gilbert, Ilitches, and any other property owners with the DDA district.

The idea is that these multiple revenue streams pay off the bonds.

Quite frankly these are questions for the Mayor's office.

They would know what the real story is and what is Internet poppycock.

They can answer this question: Are revenue sources from ticket surcharges, non-resident performer taxes for LCA events, TIF revenues, other incomes directly related to events at LCA [[rental payments paid by the Olympia enterprise), etc. sufficient to pay off the annual debt service on the bonds?

[Richard]

Richard,

Wasn't the grand design of all of 'District Detroit' and also Brush Park is that if District Detroit was more than simply an arena, and QLine, and Brush Park that a 'whole new city' would grow out of the weeds between Fisher/MLKjr-Mack/Cass/Brush.

I've been saying until I'm blue in the face, that we now KNOW plans for over 1,000 new housing units at The Scott, City Modern, and the various Ilitich buildings [[Eddystone, Hotel American, Alhambra, and the housing adjacent to the arena).

There will be 500 - 750 WSU students there during the day when neighborhoods are typically dead [[while workers are at work and kids are at school in residential neighborhoods).

Probably 1,500 - 2,000 people are moving into the neighborhood.

How can anyone say that the arena will be a big white elephant sitting in the middle of nothingness?????

The EXACT OPPOSITE is happening. Five years ago, the area I delineated what a big nothingness. Urban decay at it worst.

To me anyways there is really nothing to say about what Detroit was as a city before and one cannot say that because things were that way they were going to stay that way forever.

I still believe the whole belle island thing was not necessary because it was a decision made in the heat of the moment and not looking into the future.

Detroit is a city just like thousands of more cities out there the metrics are the same no matter what,like I said before Detroit has the advantage of learning from the mistakes that others have made in the rebuilding process.

There is nothing that is going to happen in the city that has not already happened elsewhere.

If the general plan is for an entertainment district and more housing etc etc which is not going to happen overnight,why is there a need to demolish these buildings because they are representive of exactly what is being proposed in the future.

The only option out there is point blank demolition for a parking lot?

The stadium on its own is a large piece of real estate that will be sitting there empty and not a destination other then game time.

Who says,hey I am bored let's go go hang out in front of that big empty stadium,the city is supposed to be stepping up its game and not settling for because it is better then nothing.

When everybody goes home after the game,they still live there and in theory are helping pay for the thing.

The whole aspect of you help pay for my stadium but you get no say in it is not really a very fair way to look at it.

Atlanta,Orlando,Tampa,St. Petersburg 4 cities 5 stadiums every one was built on the same pretense,5,10,20 years later they are still the same as the day they were built after demolishing entire neighborhoods and promising the exact same thing,go look at them,every single one is a stadium in the city surrounded by nothing.

Because nothing survives around them based of 90 days a year of business,even if you do build a entertainment district around them they still are a big hole of empty mass in the middle.

My thinking would be with these two buildings is no demolishing for 5 years and no demolition by neglect,then revisit it at that time.

There is plenty of vacant lots around there for parking and they can pretty up the facades,highly unlikely but hopefully everything will be built out then and the ideas can be floated again.

[emu steve]

And for every example you make of stadiums which were dumb [[do you remember the arena built in the Cleveland area probably around 1970 which was maybe 30 miles from downtown Cleveland? Huge white elephant. Didn't last too long.).

I keep repeating myself, but I can cite some GREAT examples of how stadium and arena led to creation of neighborhoods.

In D.C. Nationals Park area was as bad as Sibley and Park [[don't visit it night or day). Now it has thousands of housing units in multi-family and townhomes. I literally watched a large neighborhood be created from say 2007 - 17.

Verizon Center as reported in a published book was a parking lot and open air drug market before Abe Pollin built the Verizon Center. That area took off and now a very vibrant area in D.C.

One of the most desolate areas of D.C. is an area called 'Buzzard Point.' D.C. broke ground earlier this year for a soccer stadium and commercial development is heating up.

Like EVERYTHING in life. We have smart development and dumb development. There are smart streetcars and dumb streetcar systems. Building a sports facility is neither inherent smart or dumb. It depends how well thought out it was...

I believe sports facilities like the Pontiac Silverdome, Palace, etc. were not smart. At that time, the philosophy was drive, park, attend, leave.

Lot of folks like the Ilitches, Gilbert, etc. etc. are betting big bucks on the area between MLKjr/Mack/Cass/Brush/Fisher.

They are voting with their wallets.

Here is Wikipedia on Buzzard Point:

Although officially the name of only the tip of the peninsula, the term "Buzzard Point" now serves to identify much or all of an urbanized area south of M Street SW and west of South Capitol Street SW, excluding Fort McNair. The area has long been known as a rather grim industrial backwater of the city.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzzard_Point