Historic Apartments at Cass and Henry to be Demolished by Olympia/Ilitch

[emu steve]

I posted this on the other site... but if they [[Ilitch's) wanted to put up high density housing... there's plenty of Ilitch owned empty lots for them to build on just 2 blocks away... on the other side of the freeway.. without the need to tear down these century old buildings... outlined in red.

In all due regard, the area south of Fisher [[by Cass) isn't a good location for housing.

That area is really has a commercial feel to it.

I believe the market would rather have more housing like City Modern north of the Fisher.

[southen]

All of those empty lots where you can basically create a neighborhood has a more commercial feel? What a mistake people have made converting buildings adjacent to into residential...

[emu steve]

All of those empty lots where you can basically create a neighborhood has a more commercial feel? What a mistake people have made converting buildings adjacent to into residential...

I believe the District Detroit plan is that the areas west of Cass to the Motor City Casino is residential/mixed. Some may say that a soccer stadium at 2nd/Ledyard doesn't fit. That can be argued.That area is 'transitional' between commercial [[arena) and residential.

The area behind the Fox really isn't residential.

It is only suitable for high rise buildings and who wants build a high rise there?

[bust]

This is what the city signed up for when it agreed to subsidize the pizza arena.

If you want to destroy a neighborhood's urbanity, a giant sports venue is a good start.

I totally agree with your second sentence. But even though you and I and many others knew the end result for most of the neighborhood would be its further destruction for parking, traffic, and arena-related infrastructure -- stuff that doesn't build community but impedes it -- that certainly wasn't what people signed up for. The Ilitch PR campaign pulled some thick wool over a lot of eyes. They show us their snazzy conceptual models AKA empty promises every chance they get. According to their utter BS district Detroit site this neighborhood was supposed to be all about close knit community and laid back funky artistry. Not a word was said about leveling historic architecture for yet more surface parking, of course.

[bust]

The area behind the Fox really isn't residential.

It is only suitable for high rise buildings and who wants build a high rise there?

The area behind the Fox is all but vacant due overwhelmingly to Ilitch destruction. They of course have been aiming to put a stadium there for decades. They destroyed it to clear the land. And yes, I'm sure they'd love to finally fulfill their goal to put a stadium there now.

But that neighborhood could be anything. You live in DC. And you've been around. You know that mixed old and new architecture of mixed scale serving a variety of purposes creates some of the most vibrant communities and micro-economies. That's a common characteristic of healthy cities.

You know what's not a characteristic of healthy cities? Seas of parking lots surrounding closed off arenas so close to downtown. One perhaps. Maybe a strong city could absorb two. But not three. Sure as heck not four. Especially not a city still struggling to get back on its feet from more than a half century of terrible car-focused urban planning like Detroit.

There are lots of great things happening in Detroit. Creating an "arena district" is not one of them. The progress is happening despite that, not because of it. Detroit deserves much better than to convert some of its most important real estate into a punter's Disneyland of sports and gambling.

Sports arenas breed parking lots and car traffic like cancer. Those are precisely the things it is imperative Detroit needs to put behind it.

[southen]

I believe the District Detroit plan is that the areas west of Cass to the Motor City Casino is residential/mixed. Some may say that a soccer stadium at 2nd/Ledyard doesn't fit. That can be argued.That area is 'transitional' between commercial [[arena) and residential.

The area behind the Fox really isn't residential.

It is only suitable for high rise buildings and who wants build a high rise there?

Residential can be high rise. We may never know who wants to build there since your favorite family owns the land and is content on letting it remain a parking wasteland.

Can we stop referencing the District Detroit "plan". It was a cheap marketing ploy. Unless of course you really think there will be "poetry slams" there to attend in the near future...

[emu steve]

Many folks were born it night but not last night when it comes to sports facilities.

Fans know EXACTLY what they are getting and overwhelming approve [[except on this site). Detroit isn't small town America.

If folks wants a vibrant CBD, that means traffic and parking.

If folks wants sports and entertainment facilities, that means traffic and parking.

If folks want a Thanksgiving Day parade or Wings championship parade, that means traffic and parking.

That is what a lot of folks want. QLine to a job in CBD. Come home get a bite to eat. Attend a sporting event. Don't even clear the snow off the car for a week.

To show how silly some remarks can be on these forums, folks in City Modern [[one block from Woodward), in the heart of the sports facilities, traffic, parking, etc. etc. are paying incredible amount of monies for their housing.

People are voting with their wallets. They are paying for a lifestyle of sports and entertainment, QLine, proximity to downtown, etc. etc.

[Zads07]

Great news, the city granted interim historic designation. They cannot be demolished for one year and will be studied. Now is the time to press Ilitch to sell the buildings and property to someone who will renovate these beauties.

https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/6/21...-cass-corridor

[emu steve]

Residential can be high rise. We may never know who wants to build there since your favorite family owns the land and is content on letting it remain a parking wasteland.

No one would want to build a residential high rise other than at the Hudson site in Detroit. [[and fail jail site).

If they wanted to build 20 stories, why not build on the Statler site?

Everything else is say 8 - 10 levels or less?

[Atticus]

Great news, the city granted interim historic designation. They cannot be demolished for one year and will be studied. Now is the time to press Ilitch to sell the buildings and property to someone who will renovate these beauties.

https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/6/21...-cass-corridor

But, but, but..... I thought lots of developers were asked about these structures, and none wanted to redevelop them.... or at least that is what the Olympia PR guy said

[Atticus]

No one would want to build a residential high rise other than at the Hudson site in Detroit.

If they wanted to build 20 stories, why not build on the Statler site?

Everything else is say 8 - 10 levels or less?

True... which is why we need to keep these historic structures from being demolished... because we aren't going to get anything bigger [[or better) in the near term, contrary to what Olympia is stating.

Be careful. I think your argument about the lack of a high rise market is contradicting one of Olympia's main arguments for demolishing the Cass structures... so [[paraphrasing their quote) bigger and better structures can go in there.

[Bham1982]

If folks wants a vibrant CBD, that means traffic and parking.

No, if folks want a crap CBD, that means traffic and parking. Car storage kills urban vibrancy.

And arenas, with huge footprints, blank walls, lack of use, and inward focus, are like kryptonite for urban vibrancy.

They're like the freeways or convention centers of the 21st century; the public loves them, but anyone who knows anything about cities understands they're horrible for urbanity.

[emu steve]

No, if folks want a crap CBD, that means traffic and parking. Car storage kills urban vibrancy.

And arenas, with huge footprints, blank walls, lack of use, and inward focus, are like kryptonite for urban vibrancy.

They're like the freeways or convention centers of the 21st century; the public loves them, but anyone who knows anything about cities understands they're horrible for urbanity.

Tell me there aren't massive traffic jams in NYC near Trump Tower, etc.

I'm not aware of any burgeoning downtown, e.g., NYC, D.C., L.A., etc. which doesn't have huge traffic problems.

And NYC and D.C. have subway systems which move many hundreds of thousands of people [[D.C.'s used to average around 775K trips per weekday).

Urban planners, etc. have not figured out to have the density of NYC, D.C. and solve the problem of moving all those people around.

The 'real population' of D.C. probably doubles during the work day as hundreds of thousands suburbanites flock to the city to work, etc.

[emu steve]

True... which is why we need to keep these historic structures from being demolished... because we aren't going to get anything bigger [[or better) in the near term, contrary to what Olympia is stating.

Be careful. I think your argument about the lack of a high rise market is contradicting one of Olympia's main arguments for demolishing the Cass structures... so [[paraphrasing their quote) bigger and better structures can go in there.

No one believe it would be a high rise.

BTW, I most concerned about Paul's [[is that the name) and stadium liquor.

Nothing historic and eye sores.

[Bham1982]

Tell me there aren't massive traffic jams in NYC near Trump Tower, etc.

Manhattan thrives in spite of traffic, not because of it. Traffic degrades the quality of life in NYC too.

And there is comparatively little car parking in Manhattan. Trump Tower has zero parking spaces.

[emu steve]

Manhattan thrives in spite of traffic, not because of it. Traffic degrades the quality of life in NYC too.

And there is comparatively little car parking in Manhattan. Trump Tower has zero parking spaces.

Thank you.

Traffic and parking is the price one has to pay to live or work in a vibrant big city.

Some folks prefer to live in say a small city where they can drive to work in 5 minutes. No traffic. No parking hassles. But not much on anything, either.

[1953]

Bust said just about everything I was thinking, except --

Places like stadium liquor make sense because they are part of the mix of uses, ages, and styles that create a vibrant, walkable city.

[bust]

Tell me there aren't massive traffic jams in NYC near Trump Tower, etc.

I'm not aware of any burgeoning downtown, e.g., NYC, D.C., L.A., etc. which doesn't have huge traffic problems.

And NYC and D.C. have subway systems which move many hundreds of thousands of people [[D.C.'s used to average around 775K trips per weekday).

Urban planners, etc. have not figured out to have the density of NYC, D.C. and solve the problem of moving all those people around.

The 'real population' of D.C. probably doubles during the work day as hundreds of thousands suburbanites flock to the city to work, etc.

Steve, you're not being serious are you? How does this support your argument at all?

Take it from someone who grew up in Detroit but who has lived in New York even longer...

Detroit has a population less than 700,000. New York's is 8.5 million. And like DC's Manhattan's population nearly doubles on work days from commuters.

Yet no interstate highways cross Manhattan south of Hudson Heights, near the northern tip of this long island. Hudson Heights is 19 miles North of city hall. Interstates cross the rivers to enter Manhattan then abruptly end.

Detroit is criss-crossed by expressways. There are so absurdly many you can zoom off the Lodge, drive a few blocks down Jefferson past the Ren Cen, and get back onto 375 with barely a chance to see anything.

Yes, New York has traffic. But our streets are narrower than Detroit's and serve at least an order of magnitude more people.

Meanwhile, show me the parking lots of New York. You have a hard time finding them even in the outer boroughs.

And where are the sports arenas in this most thriving city? New York City has two NBA teams, two NHL teams, two MLB teams, two NFL teams, and one MLS team and yet there is only Madison Square Garden in the borough of Manhattan. Everyone else plays in arenas far away in Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx, or New Jersey. And yeah, except for in Brooklyn, you can finally find parking around them.

New York is a burgeoning city, for sure. But not because of sports arenas. On the contrary, one factor in its success may be its lack of them.

[Honky Tonk]

Thank you.

Traffic and parking is the price one has to pay to live or work in a vibrant big city.

Some folks prefer to live in say a small city where they can drive to work in 5 minutes. No traffic. No parking hassles. But not much on anything, either.

They miss all the drunken sports fans yelling and pissing in your bushes, and lots of empty nothingness on non-game nights. Probably not too many non-game nights with 3 coliseums in one spot.

[emu steve]

Steve, you're not being serious are you? How does this support your argument at all?

Take it from someone who grew up in Detroit but who has lived in New York even longer...

Detroit has a population less than 700,000. New York's is 8.5 million. And Manhattan's population nearly doubles on work days from all the commuters who go there to work.

Yet no interstate highways cross Manhattan south of Hudson Heights. Hudson Heights is 19 miles North of city hall. Interstates cross the rivers to enter Manhattan then abruptly end.

Detroit is criss-crossed by expressways. There are so absurdly many you can zoom off the lodge drive a few blocks down Jefferson past the Ren Cen and get back onto 375 with barely a chance to see the city.

Yes, New York has traffic. But our streets narrower than Detroit's and serve an order of magnitude more people.

Meanwhile, show me the parking lots of New York. You have a hard time finding them even in the outer boroughs.

And where are the sports arenas in this most thriving city? New York City has two NBA teams, two NHL teams, two MLB teams, two NFL teams, and one MLS team and yet there is only Madison Square Garden in the borough of Manhattan. Everyone else plays far away in Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx, or New Jersey.

New York is a burgeoning city, for sure. But not because of sports arenas. On the contrary.

I'm not sure how we got onto traffic and parking.

Each city [[Detroit, NYC, D.C., etc.) has its own history.

I assume everyone here believes Detroit has done the WORST job because it is the 'motor city' and it shunned public transportation over the years.

As far as sports facilities, NYC doesn't need them. Manhattan land is scarce and expensive.

D.C. uses them as part of commercial development, e.g., Verizon Center, Nationals Park and the now being constructed home for D.C. United. Each has led to extensive redevelopment activities [[D.C. United's home is starting to gain some momentum in the Buzzard Point area of S.W. D.C.).

But let's not compare Detroit to NYC or D.C.

[bust]

I'm not sure how we got onto traffic and parking.

How: The Ilitches have demolished all kinds of historic Detroit architecture for parking and now they plan to demolish yet more historic architecture for more parking. Parking for their arenas. Arenas that bring enormous traffic and parking needs to the vicinity. The Ilitches have become the parking! parking! emperors of Detroit.

[emu steve]

How: The Ilitches have demolished all kinds of historic Detroit architecture for parking and now they plan to demolish yet more historic architecture for more parking. Parking for their arenas. Arenas that bring enormous traffic and parking needs to the vicinity. The Ilitches have become the parking! parking! emperors of Detroit.

Cars, traffic, parking... Detroit's DNA. Almost all not related to the Ilitches.

Ilitches brought 81 Tigers' games to Comerica.

Who brought the 7:00 a.m. traffic jams and surface parking in the CBD?????

Folks, if the Tigers were out by 275 and Wings out in a suburb, 7:00 a.m. in a Monday morning in The D wouldn't be any different.

How can folks conflate?

P.S. Aren't there traffic jams in Auburn Hills on game days?

And pity the poor folks in Ann Arbor on their game days...

[Wesley Mouch]

The area behind the Fox is all but vacant due overwhelmingly to Ilitch destruction. ...

I lived right there. It was mostly vacant pre-Ilitch. Yes -- Ilitch continued the trend of unnecessary and wasteful destruction -- but that area was a wasteland pre-Ilitch.

What I can't get over is the loss of Chris & Carl's steakhouse. The closest think Detroit had to the Seinfeld Diner [[Ted's??), albeit a couple of notches down towards the endearing gutter. It was almost as cool as the diner at Woodward and Columbia.... what was that called. It was a classic.

Lowell, these buildings probably shouldn't be called 'historic'. I don't think Washington nor MLK ever slept there. A better term might be 'heritage'. That they are. I wish godspeed to anyone trying to stop their demolition.

[K-slice]

How about Olympia finishes [[or at least starts for gods sake) renovating the United Artists, American, and all the other buildings they promised to before they are allowed to destroy any more? They just use their empty promises and never-to-be-seen renderings to gloss over what they are destroying.

[Zads07]

Cars, traffic, parking... Detroit's DNA. Almost all not related to the Ilitches.

Ilitches brought 81 Tigers' games to Comerica.

Who brought the 7:00 a.m. traffic jams and surface parking in the CBD?????

Folks, if the Tigers were out by 275 and Wings out in a suburb, 7:00 a.m. in a Monday morning in The D wouldn't be any different.

How can folks conflate?

P.S. Aren't there traffic jams in Auburn Hills on game days?

And pity the poor folks in Ann Arbor on their game days...

How much does Ilitch pay you for this gig? I'm seriously interested.