Your "White Flight" Story

[Ray1936]

Born 1936 in Detroit. Left for Las Vegas, NV, in '84 not for any white flight, but because I absolutely hate Michigan winters. And the generally boring flatness of the terrain, although that factor in Michigan beats the hell out of Ohio. Here's the view from my front driveway.

[313WX]

my company has several branch offices around the country. I've encountered several local colleagues whose wages are very low for equivalent work to those in other Midwest offices. I myself received multiple job offers with 20% better salary for what I do now. Maybe it's suppl/demand, but my current employer balked at salary ranges I received.

Thanks for the clarification.

Since the auto industry collapse, companies in Michigan [[that are not the Big 3 automakers) have been squeezing the copper out of a penny, since their cash flows are heavily dependent on the cyclical nature of the auto industry. With labor being a company's biggest expense, it's workers who take the brunt of this way of doing business.

That's largely the reason you hear so many places whining about so-called labor shortages, because they don't want to train people who would accept their abysmal wages yet they don't want to pay the right wage for someone who has the experience / education they desire [[not because there's a literal shortage of labor).

Between having to work in companies in Michigan that will find 6 ways from Sunday to screw you over in compensation / perks / benefits, the long / overcast / snowy / cold winters, the crumbling infrastructure and the dysfunctional governments, it's no wonder young people / professionals are fleeing the state and folks from outside of Michigan are hesitant to move here.

[Packman41]

Calling it "White Flight" tells me you have an agenda.

Anyway, My mother lived in Detroit since she was born [[1916) and my Dad moved from a very rural, farming town in Ohio to Detroit in 1937. We lived with my maternal grandfather on the far east side near Coplin and Vernor. We left about the time my younger brother graduated from Cass Tech [[1969) he went there as our local high school had a "rough" reputation.

My grandfather died a few years earlier and his house was sold to divide the estate. His house went cheap.

My folks wanted a newer home on a larger lot. Our current home had a gravity furnace that was converted from coal and on a 30' wide lot. One of my mother's sisters lived in New Baltimore and the other sister lived in East Detroit. My folks found a home in Clinton Twp. halfway between the two of them. It was on a half acre lot with a 2.5 car attached garage, full basement and air-conditioned.

Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative.

On the block in my old neighborhood not one, residential structure still exists. Several years ago the Free Press did land use survey and called it an "urban prairie." Both my public elementary school and junior high school have been closed for at least 5 years and have been stripped by scrappers.

[hybridy]

And based on the earlier half of my career out of state, the 'good ole boy' culture still permeates throughout the area.

[EastsideAl]

Calling it "White Flight" tells me you have an agenda.

Indeed. It's a loaded term with implications and characterizations [[very often over-generalized and unfair ones) that cut in several directions. And masks a very complex economic, social, legal, geographic, and, yes, racial history.

As you suggest, a whole lot of people, most of them probably, moved to the suburbs for the usual reasons of obtaining a newer house and more space for their families. But there is no denying that the end result of that process was towns and neighborhoods that were essentially completely segregated. A fact that is only changing around here in the last few years.

That "ethnic cleansing" narrative runs afoul of history. Since real ethnic cleansing came to Detroit with the wholesale destruction of African American neighborhoods [[to which black citizens had essentially been previously confined by law, custom, and intimidation) and the mass displacement of their populations by government "urban renewal" programs. The cycle was kicked off by blacks forcibly displaced by whites [[using the force of law), not the other way around.

Still, I'm not sure if it's all that helpful to use the phrase "white flight" or to look back at that period in our history and waste a lot of time trying to assign motives to long-ago actions and stirring up hopefully fading resentments.

[EastsideAl]

Dumpling, thank you for your message about my dad. There were a number of things he loved in this life, but one of his greatest loves was the City of Detroit, particularly the east side. It certainly wasn't always the easiest love to have, and there was a lot of heartache and disappointment, but he did live long enough to see things around here begin to improve and to enjoy some of that improvement.

[Former_Detroiter]

I'm not white and I can't fly but left Detroit after 60 plus years 5 years ago. Why? For this view from my windows in Beautiful Santa Fe, NM. And much much more. Anyone who ever spent time in Santa Fe already knows why I chose to move here.

[313WX]

And based on the earlier half of my career out of state, the 'good ole boy' culture still permeates throughout the area.

Also true.

Being a part of the "good ole boy" network is virtually a prerequisite if you want to work for the Big 3 automakers in a non-Engineering role.

[JBMcB]

My grandparents moved out of the Moross / I-94 area in the mid 90's. After living there for 40 years with no crime to speak of, their house was burglarized twice, their neighbor's car was stolen out of their driveway, and another neighbor was carjacked in their own driveway. All of this was in the span of two years. They left the following year.

Two years after that, their friends, whom still lived in the neighborhood and were determined to stay, were carjacked in their own driveway, the husband beaten so badly he was hospitalized. He was 90 years old and very frail, you could have knocked him over with your thumb. After he recuperated, they moved out, too.

I have a dozen or so similar stories, mostly involving elderly people being menaced, assaulted and robbed in their own homes or on their own property.

Who did it doesn't matter. Why it was done doesn't matter. All that matters is when you don't feel safe in your own home, most people move.

[Jimaz]

....Being a part of the "good ole boy" network is virtually a prerequisite if you want to work for the Big 3 automakers in a non-Engineering role.

Wait. What? Are you implying there's no "good ole boy" network in engineering? Not to refute, but why would that be?

[[Sincerely. Not trying a set up anyone here. I just find it surprising that engineering might have some social integrity. LOL!)

Edit for a disclaimer: I've worked in both engineering environments, "good ole boy" & "open-minded." In my experience the latter was much more successful for the company.

True genius rarely follows authoritarian rules. Sycophants are most often idiots.

[Zacha341]

^^^ I was wondering how the engineering crowd could be so impermeable.

[Bham1982]

T
I'm curious to know however, what do you mean by "There's this perception by employers that detroit is cheap?" Could you elaborate?

Metro Detroit is not that cheap. Median home prices are higher than in most other Midwest metros.

If you have or want kids there are like 10 school districts with decent schools, and they're all fairly expensive. If you want a lively downtown + good schools there are like two or three districts and the prices are almost as high as on the coasts.

Then there are high property taxes, high gas costs, no public transit, really, weather issues, deteriorating infrastructure, etc. In terms of what you get, is Metro Detroit really that "cheap"?

And property values barely budge over time. What's "cheaper"? A 500k home that doubles in value over 10 years or a 150k home that's still worth 150k in 10 years? I would say the former. Metro Detroit is the latter.

[hybridy]

Yep Detroit is affordable in some regards, but attractive burbs aren't. The only high quality public school district that doesn't require a 45 min commute to the CBD is Grosse Pointe South, and if I want 3 bed, 2 bath, an attached garage and central air under $300k [[non-condo) you can forget it...

[313WX]

Metro Detroit is not that cheap. Median home prices are higher than in most other Midwest metros.

If you have or want kids there are like 10 school districts with decent schools, and they're all fairly expensive. If you want a lively downtown + good schools there are like two or three districts and the prices are almost as high as on the coasts.

Then there are high property taxes, high gas costs, no public transit, really, weather issues, deteriorating infrastructure, etc. In terms of what you get, is Metro Detroit really that "cheap"?

And property values barely budge over time. What's "cheaper"? A 500k home that doubles in value over 10 years or a 150k home that's still worth 150k in 10 years? I would say the former. Metro Detroit is the latter.

IT was cleared up several posts about that the "cheap" comment was about the employers in Michigan being insufferable cheapskates when it comes to properly compensating employees, which is true.

As far as your response, in terms of "bang for your buck," it depends on how you frame things. If you can somehow manage to make $75K+, you can live like a king in Michigan compared to other major metro areas as you spend much less per dollar and don't have to earn nearly as much to enjoy the same type of big city amenities [[professional sports, world class museums, state of the art International Airport, top-tier theatre district, etc.), that people in NYC, Chicago, LA, DC, etc. do.

Now true, there is some drawbacks. The reason the COL in Michigan is so low is exactly for the reasons you mentioned. But it is ultimately a trade off for the people who can achieve the type of income I mentioned and choose to stay here.

[Dan Wesson]

White flight is a loaded term.

I left Detroit because I didn't want my children to grow up as I did.

On a personal level?

Prejudice, as in...

Prejudice is an unjustified or justified attitude [[usually negative) towards an individual or group or individuals based solely on the individual's membership of a social group. For example, a person may hold prejudiced views or be subjected to prejudiced views towards a certain race, gender and as of late, politics etc.

[jiminnm]

Lived in Detroit until 1970, moved around the suburbs a bit and spent the last 16 years in the area living in Novi. The reasons have all been mentioned. Worked downtown until 1999, when my employer and I parted ways, and we moved to 40-45 miles south of Former_Detroiter. Like others, we really tired of the lousy weather.

[Hermod]

Wait. What? Are you implying there's no "good ole boy" network in engineering? Not to refute, but why would that be?

[[Sincerely. Not trying a set up anyone here. I just find it surprising that engineering might have some social integrity. LOL!)

Edit for a disclaimer: I've worked in both engineering environments, "good ole boy" & "open-minded." In my experience the latter was much more successful for the company.

True genius rarely follows authoritarian rules. Sycophants are most often idiots.

I am an engineer and have worked in mixed environments with engineers and B-school types. The problem is that B-school types can get through school writing and speaking BS buzzwords and get very good at it. They continue that in the workplace and can cover over their inadeqaucies with a stream of meaningless babble. You can't bullshit your way through an engineering curriculum and incompetence quickly become apparent. Engineers do play the political games in the workplace and can be difficult to deal with, but are nowheres near as good at it as the B-school buffoons.

I

[Former_Detroiter]

Lived in Detroit until 1970, moved around the suburbs a bit and spent the last 16 years in the area living in Novi. The reasons have all been mentioned. Worked downtown until 1999, when my employer and I parted ways, and we moved to 40-45 miles south of Former_Detroiter. Like others, we really tired of the lousy weather.

Are you in ABQ?

[jiminnm]

Are you in ABQ?

A few miles due north.

[Lowell]

The lead in to this story is archtypical: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...t-perspectives

As a direct consequence of those events and others that took place before and after, my family — the last white household in our neighborhood on the Detroit's east side — moved out of the city in the early 1970s. My parents signed our house over to the state around 1974 when they were unable to sell it, and they moved to a nearby suburb to start over with their eight kids.

They still brought us back into Detroit some Sundays after church, for fishing on Belle Isle, drives through their old neighborhoods and for special occasions like the downtown Christmas lights, the Grand Prix as it roared through the downtown area and the fireworks. During every trip, they'd point out the places they used to go when they were young, painting a vibrant picture of Detroit during its glory days. They wanted us to see Detroit the way they had seen it.

[1953]

On one side...

My great-great-great grandfather lived on Elizabeth downtown.

My great-great grandfather lived on Helen on the lower East Side.

My great grandfather lived on Nottingham.

My grandparents moved further up to Madison Heights [[about 11 mile).

The house on Helen and the house on Nottingham are still standing, though not in the greatest shape.

The Nottingham house was sold in the early 80's when my great grandfather was a widower and needed to live with his kids, who all had moved out to the suburbs.

On the other side...

My great grandparents lived in various locations up and down Van Dyke, settling eventually at Outer Drive and Van Dyke.

My grandfather bought a house in Harper Woods because it had Grosse Pointe Schools and Harper Woods taxes.

The house at Van Dyke and Outer Drive is still standing, occupied, and in decent condition.

[gnome]

"White flight" presupposes a start and a stop. It does not address "black flight".

"Wealth Flight" might be a better term so as to avoid the time-worn finger-pointing that goes along with the subject at hand.

Detroit became a place that was either a place you couldn't afford to leave or you were so comfortable that you didn't have to.

The vast flight of middle-class wealth is what has killed, and still is, The American City.

Don't be so parochial as to think wealth flight hasn't harmed almost every city in America. In short, Detroit ain't that special. Get over your self-coronation of urban victim with a golden order of moral superiority because of your ZipCode.

You can't ascribe racist motives to a white family who left in '66 without doing the same to a black family who left in '15

[Zacha341]

^^^ Exactly! I was wondering when the 'wealth' factor was going to emerge.

[clubboss]

I don’t know exactly when both sides of my family moved to Detroit, but both were living in Detroit – 1940 Census.
Paternal side moved to Dearborn early on, I’d say 1950’s, my grandfather was Arabic, they settled in Dearborn, and he opened a grocery store. They lived out their days in the home they purchased.
Maternal stayed in Detroit for a bit, first memory for me was a home on Lauder – late 60’s. From there they moved to Rosedale Park [[Warwick and Grand River). They stayed there until 1976. Of note, the house in Rosedale Park was a beautiful home [[think it still is). From there they moved to Franklin – and purchased a home that my grandmother explained to me – needed some work. I certainly considered it a smaller home than the one in Rosedale Park, anyway, it was $67,000.00. They paid it off approximately 15 years ago. The home sits on 2.0 acres of land, and is worth a damn sight more than it was in the 70’s.
My parents were born and raised in Detroit, and my brother and I were born in Detroit, but I have No memory of living in the city. My father accepted a position in Boston and we relocated to Bean Town in 1965, I was 7 years old. Prior to moving we were living in Livonia [[my earliest memories).
I’m not sure any of them were scared; the maternal side consisted of a mother [[my grandmother) and her 7 daughters – I never met her husband. Those 8 women went to work every day, supported themselves, and when retirement offers were going around, they jumped [[leaped) at it.
I am not aware of anything ever happening to any of them while they lived in the city.

[p69rrh51]

My father's parents lived in St Clair Shores when the were first married in 1936, and moved to Detroit in 1950 just as movement to the suburbs gained a considerable amount of momentum. Ironically the house in St. Clair Shores is long gone but their house at 5518 Courville in Detroit is standing and in good condition. My father's grand parents house lived on Fischer until they both passed away sometime in the 1950's, and my great aunt Illumina lived there until she moved to northwest Detroit in the 1960's. The house is gone but newer house resides on the lot. My father's grand mother's house on Mapleridge is gone, she lived there from the 1930's until she passed away in the early 1970's.
My parent's first house at 4875 Harvard is still standing and in good condition. We lived there from 1963-1969. My parents moved to Grosse Pointe in 1969 not because they were fleeing the city, but my father got a great job and could afford a much larger house.
My mother's parents came to the metro Detroit area in 1948 and settled in Grosse Pointe. They lived there until 1978. The would eventually move to Detroit living in the Whittier 1978-1982 when they passed away.