Detroit is looking for ideas to fill vacant space at Rosa Parks Transit Center

**Tig3rzhark** · June-16-17, 03:21 PM

It's been quite a while since the Rosa Parks Transit Center has been open for Downtown Buses.

There is still a lot of vacant space available and proposals are being accepted during the summer.

Here is an article with more details on the issue:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...&view=sections

**Gistok** · June-16-17, 11:59 PM

Crain's never makes it easy to view their site....

Google "Crain's Detroit Rosa Parks Transit Center".... to read the entire article.

**Tig3rzhark** · June-17-17, 08:13 AM

Alright, the first article that I read on the subject was on crainsdetroitbusiness.com

And you're right, they really make it hard to read their site.

Which is why there are other sites that provides this information.

https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/6/16...nter-transform

I hope that this site is a better source and will provide more information.

The building itself could use some places to eat as well as a few other things. I look forward to more replies in the future.

If there's any trouble with this source of info, please contact me.

**EGrant** · June-17-17, 10:02 AM

Crain's does a really good job of covering local development news and deserves the small subscription fee they charge.

For the Transit Center, that area needs some love. Probably the seediest area in the downtown core right now.

**Zacha341** · June-17-17, 10:39 AM

^^^ Yes, I'd like to see that area revitalized, seeing as how much is going forth in other areas of downtown Detroit. I worked in the Book Building not far years ago. I would not feel safe walking around the Transit Center now.

**Tig3rzhark** · June-17-17, 08:19 PM

Well the Book Building is under construction, even the sidewalk. Sad that Bookies moved out of there to another location because of the construction.

As for the Transit Center, that place could use a Tubby's, a 24/7 machine to buy bus cards and tickets. Hell, even if it's temporary, we should have all the DDOT/SMART Downtown buses stop in there.

**ABetterDetroit** · June-18-17, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tig3rzhark

Well the Book Building is under construction, even the sidewalk. Sad that Bookies moved out of there to another location because of the construction.

As for the Transit Center, that place could use a Tubby's, a 24/7 machine to buy bus cards and tickets. Hell, even if it's temporary, we should have all the DDOT/SMART Downtown buses stop in there.

Not a bad idea on the Tubby's. You could be the right guy to do it with your very pro transit opinions. Those would be asset in this situation. Someone else might choose a location using other criteria.

https://www.entrepreneur.com/franchi...shopinc/282893

http://tubbys.com/franchising/

P.S. I'm not anywhere near ready to find fault with the Book Building renovation. Still amazed it's happening.

**professorscott** · June-18-17, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tig3rzhark

It's been quite a while since the Rosa Parks Transit Center has been open for Downtown Buses.

There is still a lot of vacant space available and proposals are being accepted during the summer.

God bless them for trying but the problem with RPTC is that they deliberately built it in a ridiculous location. A downtown transit center should be downtown: a short walk to lots and lots of employment spaces. Detroit, a few decades ago, used Cadillac Square as its main transit center, with no amenities at all, but the location was good. Then they moved it to Capitol Park for no reason I've been able to discern, and that didn't work as well: no amenities and a worse location. Now they move it out to RTPC: a much worse location, and the major amenity seems to be that you can be under a roof much of the time.

I'm not sure how to fix this when the essential problem is that it doesn't make any sense to have all the west-side buses drop people off several blocks from where their jobs are. That the east-side buses go there is harmless; they are mostly nearly empty after they cross downtown. It's convenient for people transferring from east-side to west-side buses, but is that really all that many people?

If you want to make it slightly better, run a very frequent bus from RPTC to downtown so the people coming from the west can get to where they're actually trying to get to. Better yet, run the west-side buses all the way to downtown, and let RPTC just be a place to transfer for the people who need that.

**Russix** · June-18-17, 09:06 PM

Don't go to the transit center, it's a transfer station for those being deported out of downtown.

**EastsideAl** · June-19-17, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

If you want to make it slightly better, run a very frequent bus from RPTC to downtown so the people coming from the west can get to where they're actually trying to get to. Better yet, run the west-side buses all the way to downtown, and let RPTC just be a place to transfer for the people who need that.

Of course, the working theory was that folks would use the People Mover for trips to other parts of the CBD. That's one of the reasons why, despite some significant evidence to the contrary, the RPTC's siting was thought to be good. It was supposed to act as a transfer point and "inter-modal" transit center, and banish fume-belching idling buses from the center of downtown once and for all. In part, it was another project designed to make the PM seem something other than a marginally useful and badly aging toy train. Hasn't really worked out that way.

**dtowncitylover** · June-19-17, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

If you want to make it slightly better, run a very frequent bus from RPTC to downtown so the people coming from the west can get to where they're actually trying to get to. Better yet, run the west-side buses all the way to downtown, and let RPTC just be a place to transfer for the people who need that.

While I mostly agree with on things, professor, especially the above paragraph that's all I'm willing to give you. I think the location is just fine. It just needs amenities inside and outside of it but I don't see how the location isn't ideal. CM is just three blocks away, GR & Woodward and Cobo are 4-5 blocks away. These aren't major walking distances.

**Tig3rzhark** · June-19-17, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Not a bad idea on the Tubby's. You could be the right guy to do it with your very pro transit opinions. Those would be asset in this situation. Someone else might choose a location using other criteria.

https://www.entrepreneur.com/franchi...shopinc/282893

http://tubbys.com/franchising/

P.S. I'm not anywhere near ready to find fault with the Book Building renovation. Still amazed it's happening.

Thanks for the suggestion for the Tubby's franchise @ RPTC. If I had the cash, I'd do it already.

When I was a kid, the place I used to live at, was on the corner of a Tubby's. The place is still there on GR btw Grandmont and Woodmont.

professor scott, it would b easier for all the downtown buses including SMART, to go to RPTC. There would be a lot of chaos with too many buses and the Q-Line on Woodward, along with too much traffic on Larned and Congress streets.

**MrMichigan** · June-19-17, 10:43 AM

Create a light rail hub for Michigan Ave at the transit center.

**gnome** · June-19-17, 12:35 PM

The de facto status of the RPTC is as a homeless drop-in shelter for the destitute or mentally ill. If they want to change that status a Tubby's is not going to do the trick. Neither is a coffeehouse or an artist collective.

The issue of mental illness can only be addressed with treatment, housing, training and compassion.

Homelessness? One might consider not kicking people out of their homes.

Of course, you could bring in a beard growing firm, a blacksmith forge, a glass blower and silk stocking weaver.

**Tig3rzhark** · June-19-17, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by MrMichigan

Create a light rail hub for Michigan Ave at the transit center.

How would it be possible? For years, we have tried.

On Michigan Ave, two buses run,

SMART 200 and the DDOT 37.

No express routes at present on Michigan Ave.

Running light rail on the curbside of Michigan ave will not work.

And should the Q-Line become extended past Grand Blvd., it has to be mid-lane for it to be effective.

Back to the subject of RPTC proposals:

Anyone agrees that there's enough space for SMART buses to be there too?

**Jason** · June-19-17, 07:05 PM

I think the location of the transit center makes enough sense. But I'm not sure about the design itself.

I admit that I haven't actually been in it before, but it looks like the wayfinding is awkward. And it's great in theory that it's next to the people mover but it's not actually integrated at all with it.

Then the building itself doesn't have the appearance of a building with "stuff" in it. If I was thinking of getting something to eat I wouldn't think of that building as having food in it.

I think they could get someone to take up the space just to activate it but it's hard to imagine a business paying normal rent to be there.

**professorscott** · June-19-17, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

While I mostly agree with on things, professor, especially the above paragraph that's all I'm willing to give you. I think the location is just fine. It just needs amenities inside and outside of it but I don't see how the location isn't ideal. CM is just three blocks away, GR & Woodward and Cobo are 4-5 blocks away. These aren't major walking distances.

OK, I must respectfully disagree. The major employment locations, the biggest ones, are Quicken and the City-County building, each of which is ten blocks or so from RPTC. People just are not walking these distances: go watch. The People Mover has not caught on as a way to cover the last half-mile, for various reasons. As I said before, a downtown transit center needs to be downtown, and this just is not.

You might be younger than I am. When Cadillac Square was the TC, it was very common to see people - hordes of them - walking the last block, or two, or three, from the bus to their offices. Once they moved to Capitol Park, this became vanishingly rare, and now it is nonexistent. When the City made the deliberate and conscious decision to get the undesirable bus passengers out of downtown proper, the [[completely predictable) side effect was to banish from the buses the people who worked in downtown proper.

When I say "undesirable", that is not my own opinion [[I was one of the bus passengers, routinely) but that is how the City saw them then. I have seen nothing since to change my mind about it; the City just doesn't like the people who ride the buses and wants to keep them away from the desirable people. This is sad, but seems to be true.

**masterblaster** · June-20-17, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

OK, I must respectfully disagree. The major employment locations, the biggest ones, are Quicken and the City-County building, each of which is ten blocks or so from RPTC. People just are not walking these distances: go watch. The People Mover has not caught on as a way to cover the last half-mile, for various reasons. As I said before, a downtown transit center needs to be downtown, and this just is not.

You might be younger than I am. When Cadillac Square was the TC, it was very common to see people - hordes of them - walking the last block, or two, or three, from the bus to their offices. Once they moved to Capitol Park, this became vanishingly rare, and now it is nonexistent. When the City made the deliberate and conscious decision to get the undesirable bus passengers out of downtown proper, the [[completely predictable) side effect was to banish from the buses the people who worked in downtown proper.

When I say "undesirable", that is not my own opinion [[I was one of the bus passengers, routinely) but that is how the City saw them then. I have seen nothing since to change my mind about it; the City just doesn't like the people who ride the buses and wants to keep them away from the desirable people. This is sad, but seems to be true.

The Rosa Parks Transit Center is in downtown proper. It is located at the corner of Cass Avenue and Michigan Avenue

This is where the City of Detroit needs to get right. All Westside/Southwest Side DDOT buses - when they arrive at the Transit Center - DROP PEOPLE OFF RIGHT IN FRONT THE TIMES SQUARE PM STATION [[I literally mean right in front) - before going into the covered part of the Transit Center.

The City of Detroit needs to establish a transfer system between DDOT and SMART to the PeopleMover. People who have purchased a 25 cent transfer when they originally got onto the bus, should be able to swipe their transfer cards at the turnstiles of the People Mover Station, and be able to get on the People Mover. This would solve the problem of the non-central location of the Transit Center and increase the ridership and usefulness of the People Mover.

Concerning what to do inside the Transit Center, an outpost of the Eastern Market fixture, Louisiana Creole Gumbo, lasted on the 2nd floor at the location for like 4 years or so, but it closed maybe 6 months ago. It had limited hours [[lunch). A sub shop like Tubby's would probably do well. A lower priced fast-casual or sub shop or Coney Island with longer hours could do really well there.

The Transit Center is a magnet for lower echelon people - who are waiting around for their buses to arrive. There are a few loiterers and people selling loose cigarettes and an occasional discreet pharmacist selling "trees", but I never found it to be dangerous though, and I have been there at all hours of the night. There is a heavy police presence there.

**Bham1982** · June-20-17, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

You might be younger than I am. When Cadillac Square was the TC, it was very common to see people - hordes of them - walking the last block, or two, or three, from the bus to their offices. Once they moved to Capitol Park, this became vanishingly rare, and now it is nonexistent. When the City made the deliberate and conscious decision to get the undesirable bus passengers out of downtown proper, the [[completely predictable) side effect was to banish from the buses the people who worked in downtown proper.

This is exactly what happened. Regional transit culture is so non-existent that the old bus terminal was seen as nothing more than a nuisance of working class and poor black folks.

In the 80's and early 90's you would see lots of people getting on/off the buses with shopping bags and briefcases. I don't see these people anymore.

It had to go; to a forgotten corner of downtown, like the Greyhound terminal. I don't think anyone really thought that the People Mover would serve as an intermodal asset for those last few blocks.

**dtowncitylover** · June-20-17, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

OK, I must respectfully disagree. The major employment locations, the biggest ones, are Quicken and the City-County building, each of which is ten blocks or so from RPTC. People just are not walking these distances: go watch. The People Mover has not caught on as a way to cover the last half-mile, for various reasons. As I said before, a downtown transit center needs to be downtown, and this just is not.

You might be younger than I am. When Cadillac Square was the TC, it was very common to see people - hordes of them - walking the last block, or two, or three, from the bus to their offices. Once they moved to Capitol Park, this became vanishingly rare, and now it is nonexistent. When the City made the deliberate and conscious decision to get the undesirable bus passengers out of downtown proper, the [[completely predictable) side effect was to banish from the buses the people who worked in downtown proper.

When I say "undesirable", that is not my own opinion [[I was one of the bus passengers, routinely) but that is how the City saw them then. I have seen nothing since to change my mind about it; the City just doesn't like the people who ride the buses and wants to keep them away from the desirable people. This is sad, but seems to be true.

RPTC and One Campus Martius is not 10 blocks. Walking down Michigan...Washington, Shelby, Griswold, Woodward, then bam you're there. Yes, city hall is another 5 blocks south but Professor, this just goes to show how lazy we've become.

Ogilvie Transportation Center is on the other side of the Chicago River and I've been down there on a weekday morning seeing the hordes of people walking from Ogilvie across the river to their Loop office building. Yes, some catch a bus if it's further but not all do.

Not sure how you can say RPTC is not downtown when it clearly is. Hey, if we had built a subway, Campus Martius would've been one big inter-modal subway station! And perhaps it would behoove future streetcar planners to end the Jefferson line at RPTC.

**Bham1982** · June-20-17, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

RPTC and One Campus Martius is not 10 blocks. Walking down Michigan...Washington, Shelby, Griswold, Woodward, then bam you're there. Yes, city hall is another 5 blocks south but Professor, this just goes to show how lazy we've become.

Ogilvie Transportation Center is on the other side of the Chicago River and I've been down there on a weekday morning seeing the hordes of people walking from Ogilvie across the river to their Loop office building. Yes, some catch a bus if it's further but not all do.

The Ogilvie Center is transporting commuters from the suburbs, in a city where congestion makes driving from the suburbs extremely inconvenient. In contrast, DDot choice customers are not really inconvenienced by congestion.

And the Ogilvie Center is much more proximate to downtown. Wacker Drive, the premier office corridor, is like two blocks away. The area around Rosa Parks is pretty desolate and isolated from office employment.

**scooter** · June-20-17, 08:11 AM

Many SMART buses already go here, 510, 560 etc...

**clubboss** · June-20-17, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by scooter

Many SMART buses already go here, 510, 560 etc...

Yep, SMART buses stop on Michigan Ave @ Cass, both sides of the street. And as far as I know, every DDOT bus that is headed downtown stops @ the transit station.
What to do with the upstairs area, is that the question? There was a restaurant upstairs - I noticed a sandwich board @ the foot of the stairs showing daily specials. Not sure how big that area is upstairs, I've never ventured up there. And how much is the rent? And what kind of revenue are we talking about. I don't see a restaurant, that shares not only the same space as the transit station, but also requires it's customers to navigate the waiting area, and then ascend a flight of stairs, is anything any business person would seriously consider. Is there a bathroom up there, or do they share the bathroom/ shower area that is downstairs in the waiting room?
There have been comments as to the smells that permeate this facility - yea, that's where I want to meet up for lunch.
There are small empty office type rooms on the main floor, off to the side - that are blocked off 24/7. I do notice every once in a blue moon there will be DDOT employees in there offering assistance to those needing help applying for the special discount card.

**dtowncitylover** · June-20-17, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The Ogilvie Center is transporting commuters from the suburbs, in a city where congestion makes driving from the suburbs extremely inconvenient. In contrast, DDot choice customers are not really inconvenienced by congestion.

And the Ogilvie Center is much more proximate to downtown. Wacker Drive, the premier office corridor, is like two blocks away. The area around Rosa Parks is pretty desolate and isolated from office employment.

Well we're not discussing where commuters comes from are we?

We're discussing how reasonable it is to expect people to walk from their transit destination to their real destination. And unless you work in Greektown, I just don't find it unreasonable to walk from RPTC to CM or Cobo. It's about the same walking distance from Ogilvie to Willis Tower as it is RPTC to CM and Ogilive to LaSalle & Adams as it is to RPTC to City Hall.

Ogivilie is not that much more proximate to downtown Chicago than RPTC is to downtown Detroit because they're both located in their respective downtowns. Since when did downtown just became a block each way out of Campus Martius?

**Bham1982** · June-20-17, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Ogivilie is not that much more proximate to downtown Chicago than RPTC is to downtown Detroit because they're both located in their respective downtowns. Since when did downtown just became a block each way out of Campus Martius?

I'd say almost all office employment is within a few blocks of Campus Martius. Maybe not one block, but two/three blocks at the most. Detroit's office core is fairly small and concentrated.